Thyroid UK

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New Scientist - CFS linked to lower levels of some gut bacteria

The article is under a paywall but if you're subscribed you can read it in full here: newscientist.com/article/23...

It says:

"Participants completed a survey measuring fatigue symptoms at the time of stool collection. Comparing these scores with stool samples revealed a strong association between reductions in F. Prausdnitzii and fatigue severity. Together, these findings suggest F. Prausnitzii - or more precisely, the lack thereof - may play a role in ME/CFS."

I had my gut health looked at via the Zoe Health test and Well, wouldn't you know! when I looked at my results for F. Prausnitzii I was also extraordinarily low.

You: 0.382% Vs Population: 7.346%.

Thus, I have concluded that hypothyroidism is also connected to the bacteria, because we all know n=1. 😂

Anyway - thought it was interesting!

radd Have you had yours done yet?

Written by

Witchinghour

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71 Replies

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jimh11125 days ago

Is it this study cell.com/cell-host-microbe/... ?

Witchinghour in reply to jimh11125 days ago

Yes!

Imaaan25 days ago

I've been looking at the connection of thiamine to fatigue and here I read the lack of a certain bacteria can play a role too. The human body is a fascinating jigsaw. Thanks for sharing.

Regenallotment you might find this interesting.

Regenallotment in reply to Imaaan25 days ago

I certainly do thx 🌱🤗

Delgor in reply to Imaaan25 days ago

It's a fascinating jigsaw alright - have got the corners and straight edges in but still having trouble with the middle pieces - lol!

Imaaan in reply to Delgor25 days ago

You're ahead of me, love. I'll catch up in a decade or so

Delgor in reply to Imaaan25 days ago

I don't think I'll be around then but we can live in hope🙏

Imaaan in reply to Delgor25 days ago

Well that turned morbid real quick. You've sobered me up. Hopefully you and I, along with the rest will have it figured out before it's too late. 💕

Delgor in reply to Imaaan25 days ago

😢So sorry - didn't mean to spoil your Saturday night entertainment🤗

Imaaan in reply to Delgor25 days ago

You haven't hun. I just felt bad that you said you believe that you wont be around in a decade or so. Heres to hoping for better days for all

Delgor in reply to Imaaan25 days ago

I definitely second that - so many lovely people on this forum who deserve better!

Imaaan in reply to Delgor25 days ago

❤️

shawsAdministrator25 days ago

Thanks for posting. I will read shortly.

Delgor25 days ago

Thank you for this - it seems that gut health can affect so many things. Were you able to change the low levels of F Prausdnitzil?

Witchinghour in reply to Delgor24 days ago

Nothing specifically aimed at that strain but the advice is just to improve the gut biome in general.

Delgor in reply to Witchinghour24 days ago

Ok thanks for that - it's all very interesting!

Regenallotment25 days ago

linked ish… a podcast I listened to yesterday with Dr Sarah Myhill, she mentioned that if you have poor gut health in the small intestines, low acid, high carb diet, lots of fermentation and then add a supplement, you basically feed the supplement to the bacteria and produce toxins ….😱 💡 for me. Can’t keep flip flopping around with diet. I’ll just finish this chocolate and then I’ll do it 🤣 🌱

Delgor in reply to Regenallotment25 days ago

🤣🤣🤣 Love it!

dontforgetcortisol in reply to Regenallotment25 days ago

😂

Witchinghour in reply to Regenallotment24 days ago

Same! I have weeks where I follow the Zoe advice 100% and then a week where I'm too tired and craving hot cross buns. 😂

Regenallotment in reply to Witchinghour24 days ago

Ooo that’s reminded me of a funny this week, someone’kindly’ went to no end of effort to get me a gluten and dairy free hot x bun with non dairy spread at a work event recently…. What a glob of shite that was. Popped it in my lunch box, smiled lots of ‘you shouldn’t haves’ and thank yous … ungrateful wretch that I am, fed it to hubby at home, he took one bite and said … what is that? It’s not even food 🙈

Witchinghour in reply to Regenallotment23 days ago

The Free From industry thinks we should be grateful and will happily take the scraps they can be bothered to throw us. It's the only logical conclusion for some of the stuff they sell. Bloody awful!!

Eeyore10024 days ago

Looks like you are going to be joining the 'farty smelling scented candle kitchen group' when you start making sauerkraut 🤗 welcome

Witchinghour in reply to Eeyore10024 days ago

Husband made some this morning. 🤣

Hashiboy24 days ago

I'm just doing Zoe Witchinghour so I'll let you know how my F.P looks. Then we'll have a sample of two. I'd also had long COVID so thanks for posting this.

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy24 days ago

I'm curious to see your results! Maybe n=2. 😁

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy1 day ago

Any results yet, Hashiboy?

Hashiboy in reply to Witchinghour23 hours ago

Hi there Witchinghour how are you. Yep got my results a couple of weeks back so now following the personalized eating programme. The results say my gut microbe diversity is in the lower 25% but my ratio of good to bad microbes is in the 88th percentile so very high. God knows what that means in practical terms - basically not a whole load of microbes but pretty much everything there is considered good and very, very little bad bacteria. I’m positive for Blastocystis the good parasite. Most reassuring is that my blood sugar control is classed ‘excellent’ and is in the 76th percentile and significantly above average for my age range. Blood fat control on the other hand is categorized as ‘poor’ at the 29th percentile (this Is just a bit below average for my age). So the bottom line is the personliased advice to me is that I should carry on eating lots of plants and low GI carbs but make a big effort to limit my fats and stick to the good fats. My ideal diet is likely to be mostly unprocessed vegan whole food with the odd bit of fish and a little good fat like extra virgin olive oil. Red meat and cheese need to be treats but carbs like white pasta and rice seem like less of a disaster. Keto would be about the worse diet for me. I think the problems with fats is very typical in hypothyroidism. Eat real foods, mostly plants and limit fats sounds very standard mainstream advice but I’m now clear that the paleo or keto routes would overload my poor blood fat control. I had half a tub of Hagen daz caramel and brownie ice cream to celebrate getting the results, please don’t tell them.

AmandaK24 days ago

Thank you, that's illuminating. How are you finding the Zoe programme? I'm tempted to have the testing (I have a diagnosis of ME/CFS) but am reticent to go as far as the membership as it's a huge commitment but it's not possible to just get tested.

Crazy as it sounds, the thought of having to do finger prick tests leaves me cold. I'm far too squeamish!

Witchinghour in reply to AmandaK24 days ago

I'm a big fan of the Zoe program. The focus is on progress, not perfection and I felt SO much better eating to my bodies capabilities.

I have poor blood sugar control AND poor blood fat control and I had no real clue before!

Witchinghour in reply to AmandaK24 days ago

The finger prick test is easy; it was the poop hammock that made me squirm. 🤣

Regenallotment in reply to Witchinghour24 days ago

omg…. Poop hammock! 😳

Witchinghour in reply to Regenallotment24 days ago

It took some time to psych myself up to it, I'll admit. 😂

Divine199024 days ago

I am due to start the Zoe programme soon. Sadly though yet another expense for those of us who are having to self fund and source our own treatment. It will be very interesting to see what it reveals. I will post again when I have any results.

Thank you for sharing

Witchinghour in reply to Divine199024 days ago

I look forward to your results! It's fascinating.

Hashiboy24 days ago

Witchinghour Divine1990 when you did ZOE how long did they take from sending the samples until you got a report and recommendations? Thanks

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy24 days ago

Just under 3 weeks. I was obsessively checking every day. 😂

Hashiboy in reply to Witchinghour24 days ago

I'm hooked on the blood sugar monitor, just noticed my body treats apples like Coca-Cola but it's perfectly happy with a chocolate brownie

Regenallotment in reply to Hashiboy24 days ago

woop I’d call that a win!

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy24 days ago

What I'd really like to see is repeated Zoe tests after 6 or 12 months. So if there's an improvement.

I'm almost certainly going to buy myself another CGM in the summer to see if anything has changed.

I had a j2O left over from Christmas and it sent me well over range! 😳 I had a few low glucose events overnight too which I worried about at the time but they only happened at the beginning so must've been one-offs

Hashiboy in reply to Witchinghour24 days ago

The CGM ZOE use is about £60 and lasts about two weeks so agree with you definitely worth doing again. A second set of ZOE tests would be great but bit pricy. You could always get your GP to check fasting lipids, triglycerides, blood glucose and A1c in a few months?

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

Will get nowhere with GP but I think all those tests can be done privately. I'd love to see the difference to my gut health and if any of the good bugs have increased, or the bad ones reduced!

Divine1990 in reply to Hashiboy24 days ago

I should receive info, testing etc for the Zoe programme next week. So will have a clearer idea then.

Hashiboy in reply to Divine199024 days ago

Let us know all about it

TeaFree24 days ago

While we're all at the library or checking out the Libby App, it may also be worth looking up another recent New Scientist article (1 March Edition):

"We’re starting to understand how viruses trigger chronic conditions

Widespread cases of long covid have shone a spotlight on the role viral infections play in previously neglected conditions like chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia

Insight By Michael Marshall"

newscientist.com/article/mg....

Seems the fact that 10% of Covid sufferers end up with long covid, combined with the fact that a lot of medics were first in line for infection, has led to a greater appreciation among the medical profession that ME/CFS and fibromyalgia may not all be in our heads after all, because, well, they've go it too now. Who'd a thunk it?

And, maybe overexerting and rushing back to work after an infection is not such a good idea either as a rule. Something we could pay attention to while we are waiting for a treatment.

The betaherpesvirus 6B (HHV-6B) appears a likely culprit for ME/CFS. And though there is a very high degree of symptom overlap with long covid (maybe 58%) there is a school of thought that the infection that triggers ME/CFS actually arises in early childhood, but the virus lies dormant for the rest of our lives and can become reactivated, just like shingles.

Exactly in line with new thinking that long covid results from reactivation of a herpes virus.

Fibromyalgia is a slightly different kettle of fish because it seems to have multiple causes, but infection can similarly give it a start. After which the dorsal root ganglia (a set of 31 nerve clusters strung along the spine) which are a common target for herpes and other pathogens, can give off erroneous signals causing the sensation of pain where no tissue damage exists.

Anti-viral drugs, like for people with Hep C, appear to help some fibromyalgia sufferers.

The trick is that we lack proper differential tests presently, and viruses may be long gone by the time symptoms re-emerge. Limited local activity seems enough to cause chronic symptoms.

Which is not at all to say that digestive bacteria are not also crucial in the scheme of things.

We know that there are a whole host of feedback loops between hypochlorhydria, H Pylori, gut dysbiosis and dysmotility, hypothyroidism, folate and B12 deficiency, reflux, SIBO etc.

However, 40 years ago we also thought stomach ulcers were caused by too much acid. Now we know they're mostly down to bacteria.

Whereas, unfortunately, GPs can still be a little too quick to prescribe PPIs under circumstances of digestive discomfort, where they may do more harm than good on a holistic perspective.

So, it's interesting now to see a common viral root emerge and be taken seriously for some of the cluster of symptoms that had all too frequently been dismissed in the past as e.g. 'Yuppy Flu.

Hashiboy in reply to TeaFree24 days ago

TeaFree thanks for the detailed break down. I had COVID in the first wave and ended up with long COVID - I know from some of the support groups that persistence of virus or viral material repeatedly triggering the immune system to do all kinds of damage is one theory - some people have been trialled on antihistamines and some on antivirals but I'm not aware of any clear outcomes.

TeaFree in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

Yes, many thanks to you and Regenallotment btw, it's still a murky area but the advent of long covid promises to provide the increased focus (and money) that has been lacking.

Circling back to Witchinghour's original post, it seems likely that viral infection and hypothyroidism alike each promote changes in our gut biota, which in turn bring about conditions deleterious to our health, not infrequently in a vicious circle arising from e.g. proliferation of harmful bacteria and malabsorption of vital minerals like B12.

Very ancient and seemingly primitive things like fungi and virions have had a very long time to become quite adept at triggering exquisitely sophisticated changes in supposedly higher forms of evolution that suit their own book, but not their host's.

This link is quite interesting: cfsremission.com/2023/01/14.... And not a little amusing because after discussing induced bacterial gut dysbiosis very illuminatingly the author concludes with their "gut feel", without even a hint of irony.

Part of our common problem with the sort of protean problems that give rise to boards like this of course (as Witchinghour's post below on e.g. gingivitis and the bacterial link to heart and brain ill health further illustrates) is that the body is no observer of the boundaries of medical specialisms. And, sadly, our medicine is not very good at joining the dots across them. Whereas, our pharmacology too readily enjoins a sort of Whac-A-Mole approach, and to a specialist (or even GP) with a hammer everything is a nail.

Curiously, that same 1 March edition of New Scientist, almost to reinforce the point, features a piece on how Immune response links rheumatoid arthritis flare-ups with gum disease.

So, one takeaway is that, if we can't all lay hands on antivirals, we can at least floss and brush properly to help ward off arthritis, Alzheimer's, heart attacks, and dentists.

Hashiboy in reply to TeaFree23 days ago

That's fascinating. I'm going to pay more attention to flossing!

TeaFree in reply to Hashiboy22 days ago

You know, you really should. It has taken me a lifetime (and a couple of root canals and implants, which concentrate the mind marvellously) to appreciate what often no dentist would tell me (they were too busy drilling, filling, and billing for the most part).

And that's that you have to take the time to learn to get decent waxed tape - or maybe double floss up (I use this stuff: henryschein.co.uk/gb-en/den... which I ordered in bulk!). Then wrap it right around each tooth and wiggle it back and forth (like you had a rope around a tree and were trying to get the moss off the bark). From as close to the gumline as is comfortable all the way up each tooth (that you want to keep!).

You quickly get the hang of it. Persevere, if you're not already on top of all this. Brushing afterwards is good but almost superfluous. And I can vouch that after I did this properly every day for a month I had no more of the tooth sensitivity that had bothered me for years. None of what hygienists call 'BOP' (blood on probing) either, and those 'pockets' they measure (apart from the ones with your money in!), which gather bacteria, will likely also repair in time.

Other putative benefits to more remote bits of us would be irrelevant, were they not also quite so important. I joked with my implant specialist that I was surprised not to see a queue around the block for his hygienist when the research linking gingivitis and Alzheimer's onset first came out, a few years back.

If you want to go the extra mile I figure it can't do any harm to have a go at the old Ayurvedic practice of oil-pulling. Put a level teaspoon of coconut oil (or any equivalent edible vegetable oil) in your mouth and keep it there for 10-20 minutes, swilling it around your teeth. Then spit it out (other than in the sink, because it will block up your drains otherwise).

I am told that there are more bacteria in our mouths after a night's sleep than on the bottom of our shoes. But I guess that's assuming we've not joined the locals in emptying our dogs in nearby wet cow pasture!

Hashiboy in reply to TeaFree22 days ago

You've convinced me. I used to do it religiously for years ago just need to get going again.

Regenallotment in reply to TeaFree24 days ago

fascinating, thanks for joining those dots, this is very helpful. 🌱

Farrugia24 days ago

Hi Witchinghour - thanks for posting this. Interesting to read the Zoe comments on here. I did the programme last year and was very disappointed in my results. I eat a good diet (including kefir and sauerkraut) and rather smugly thought I'd get a good microbiome score only to find it wasn't great and neither were my fat or glucose control scores. I questioned them about this quite a bit and I got a very detailed reply which basically said all three (microbiome, blood sugar control and blood fat control) are adversely affected by having Hashimoto's.

It was disappointing but at least I've been able to identify the things that don't help me - bread is definitely not my friend!

I'm going to check my results for the F. Prauznitsii !

Regenallotment in reply to Farrugia24 days ago

amazing to get that explanation huh, we learn so much from sharing all this. We could bring out our own book! 🌱

Witchinghour in reply to Farrugia24 days ago

This is really interesting! I assumed gut biome would be effected but no idea blood sugar and blood fat were too.

Hashiboy in reply to Farrugia23 days ago

Thanks for that. My hypothyroidism doesn't seem to have an autoimmune cause (I learned that after choosing a user name ) so be really interested to see if my ZOE stuff is like yours. My blood sugar regulation looks pretty ropey on the CGM

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

Overall... Less than stellar. 😂

Although, having looked again, not as bad as I first thought!

Hashiboy in reply to Witchinghour23 days ago

Thanks for sharing the results, it's very interesting to see. On the positive side you don't have terrible blood fat control. Are you planning to follow the Zoe scoring system based on your results? Be interested to know if that's sustainable. About a year ago I followed an intermittent fasting diet called the Two Day diet. It's from the NHS Genisis cancer center so is nutritionally balanced and had proper evidence. My blood sugar, cholesterol and triglyceride dropped massively but by eight weeks I was feeling deprived and having an increase in hypothyroid type energy crashes don't think anything that drastic is the answer. I've started reading the glucose goddess book so maybe that will have some tips on on getting my blood sugar back in range.

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

In all honestly I'm definitely boom and bust with it at the moment.

I 100% feel better eating 'the Zoe way' but it's quite different from how I eat now so it's challenging at the moment.

I think the key is batch cooking, planning ahead and having good snacks around!

Zoe's focus is on progress, not perfection, so that helps.

Hashiboy in reply to Witchinghour23 days ago

Thanks for giving me an idea of what to expect. Can't imagine daily logging but I suppose it won't help if I don't commit.

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

I'm a perfectionist in many ways and so the yellow days naff me off. 😂 Sausages score zero for me and potatoes only 34 so lovely comfort food like bangers and mash drags my whole days score down.

On those days I just don't log dinner. 🤣

Farrugia in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

Once you get the hang of it it isn't too bad. You also learn that if you eat something that scores low for you (eg me - bacon sandwich) then you can improve your daily score by balancing it out with some high scoring foods. This means that you can still have the low scoring foods in moderation (maybe once a week) and you don't have to completely ban anything and that makes it much more encouraging.

Hashiboy in reply to Farrugia23 days ago

Thanks for the encouragement Farrugia I guess if I'm going to do it I might as well commit and stop whining.

Farrugia in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

😂 Once you've got the hang of the app and you start to see an improvement in your scores it can be quite enjoyable. I did it at the same time as a couple of friends so we were able to moan to each other about the foods we weren't able to have or about the bad score we'd got from having lunch out where there were no 'good' options. If you like cooking it can be good fun experimenting with new things. I was told that barley and bulgar were the carbs that scored best for me so now I've started using them more than potatoes or rice. Good luck, it would be interesting to hear how you get on.

Farrugia in reply to Witchinghour23 days ago

Batch cooking really helps - I'm in a three month rental that doesn't have a freezer and so can't do this which has made it very hard to keep eating the right way. I was doing really well until I had no freezer. (Also no ice for a gin and tonic!)

Witchinghour in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

You log your food each day and each food and meal is scored based on your results. Full green is a day I scored over 75. Light green is over 50 and yellow is less than 50.

The aim is 50+ days with 75+ days being excellent.

Zoe screenshot

Farrugia in reply to Hashiboy23 days ago

Yes I don't think fasting is great for thyroid. Glucose Goddess has some interesting tips although I can't drink that much vinegar. I learnt a lot about glucose control on the Zoe thing.

Farrugia in reply to Witchinghour23 days ago

My fat and sugar scores were quite a bit worse than yours, my gut microbe diversity was a bit better but with lower abundance. Interesting!

Farrugia24 days ago

Just checked my Zoe results and F. Prausnitzii was my highest microbe which I felt really happy about until I saw that my level, 5.652%, is still below average 7.3%. So if Hashimoto's has had a damaging effect on that microbe it isn't as bad as on all the others. (I don't have ME/CFS.)

Wua1326234824 days ago

Very interesting. Would be very interested to hear more of your results found, and remedies suggested, if you felt able to share.

I was totally unaware of the Zoe project, and sounds wonderful. Expensive though.

The muffins used have egg whites, which I am sworn off for life, after a very extreme reaction after trying to reintroduce them , after cutting them out of my diet, after they came up as my worst food intolerance.

From what I've read today on trying to bolster F.Prausnitzii, I can see that I would have a problem trying to boost them. I too, would expect to be low. I have a diagnosis of IBS, M.E./C.F.S and hypothyroidism.

How do you think the Zoe report compares to the new Blue Horizon Gut Biome Test ?

It too looks interesting.

Has anyone done the Blue Horizon one? Again, expensive, even with the introductory discount which expired 28/2/23.

Farrugia in reply to Wua1326234823 days ago

I think everyone gets different results but one thing that will apply to most people is that to keep your blood glucose levels more stable then you eat carbs after protein, fat and veggies - so if you really want to eat bread try to have it afterwards or at least together with some protein. In the past I would often have two pieces of toast for breakfast and sometimes an egg or peanut butter, I now know it's better for me to have more protein and only one piece of toast, preferably seeded sourdough. Otherwise the main thing is to eat a wide variety of plants - vegetables, salads, herbs, spices, nuts and seeds, try to eat some fermented foods and try to cut out processed food. Those were the main things I learned.

radd23 days ago

Witchinghour,

No, still waiting. I think it’s April but not sure as had quite a lot going on recently with a new drive on investigating my mouth issues.

An Invivo GI Ecologix evidenced a good gut microbiome. Just had a look at my results and Faecalibacterium prausnitzii was 17 (14.2 - 18.3) [proud moment 👏🏆 🤣] ........ but I was low in Akkermansia muciniphila (regulates the thickness of intestinal mucus apparently) and Coprococcus eutactus (less prevalent in autistic children)! Like you, no individual treatments offered, just eat well and drink less gin 😁.

I also had a Lifecode Gx Nutrient Core Genetic Report showing my (most likely) strengths and weaknesses (such as good genes for processing lactose 👏, but crappy at tolerating caffeine, and recommended to reduce coffee and chocolate consumption! Grrrr ..

The research regarding the microbiome and how it influences our health is fascinating, and seems to be everywhere at the moment. There is also an expanding field into the importance of the oral microbiome and how it influences diverse health conditions not necessarily limited to the oral cavity.