This may seem of-course but it really isn't. In the Times today there is an article concerning the veracity of the flood of papers coming from Chinese scientists in all kinds of fields (probably including thyroid too). Hundreds if not thousands of papers have been retracted by the journals as being false information. I write this because in an online and respected journal we publish in, the field, including thyroid endocrinology, is being swamped by multiauthor Chinese "papers". Now, if there is suspicion about a few such papers, they all get tarred with the same brush of being doubtful. To say the least. I therefore will no longer pass on Chinese-derived paper summaries unless I have been through them word by word. I have frequently seen repetitions of some of our phrases in these papers. Originally I put it down to the Chinese scientists lacking suitable turns of phrase for putting over the idea in English. So it is entirely possible that the paper in question is a "cut and paste" job which merely reorganises extracts from different legitimate papers and by adding a bit of bogus science, presents it as new and worthy of publication. There is uproar in the science publishing field. It is a scandal in that it confuses honest scientists and readers alike. I find it utterly depessing that science can be so prostituted, all for individual gain of the perpetrator(s)as regards security of tenure.
The potentially devastating effect of bogus sci... - Thyroid UK
The potentially devastating effect of bogus science
Last year, there was a substantial Nature article about the issues of Chinese research publishing:
NEWS FEATURE
23 March 2021
The fight against fake-paper factories that churn out sham science
Some publishers say they are battling industrialized cheating. A Nature analysis examines the ‘paper mill’ problem — and how editors are trying to cope.
Holly Else & Richard Van Noorden
Appears to be freely accessible
nature.com/articles/d41586-...
Over the years, it has been good to see papers from a wide range of countries. But the dominance of Chinese papers in terms of numbers has truly become an issue.
The problem personally I've found is that the people who ghost-write these papers have actually contacted me direct with offers (for a fee) - guaranteeing as they say the best chance of publication. It is rarely the case that 10 or more authors are found in a given paper - only if it a large multicenre trial. The Chinese go into this so much that the number of authors alone puts doubt on a paper's veracity.
Not meaning to point a finger at any individual, but I wonder if some have accepted those fees?
'Fiddling in science' has been around a long time. According to my Prof, who had been a physicist, it used to be cited as #1 for fiddling. Apparently, Psychology came in at 5th - most sullied by the Cyril Burt: [11 Plus Affair - see below, if vaguely interested 
- since it may have affected the future lives of many UK schoolchildren].
As with anything in this world, the integrity of the practitioner must surely come first and foremost!? I fear that in these debased times, some 'research' is becoming akin to social medial; this in turn permitting the equally diabolical to further profit. How tragic in so many ways. Never before have we enjoyed wonderous technology, huge advances in medicine/equipment... yet we remain in the hands of the unscrupulous, who simply don't give a damn. 🔍😪🤠🐍
intelltheory.com/burtaffair...
The internet is so unregulated charlatans can easily abuse it. Then again mavericks who wouldn’t get a look in in conventional circles can their ideas out. We can’t win eh?
everything else evolves except humans, greed and ego two very destructive drivers. The science journals need to do a blanket ban and tell China to get their house in order.
Drastic but it will continue unabated until sorted.
Absolutely, then start on the USA and UK - using un'proven' and dangerous 'pet theories' because they can!
Pet theories?
Their own little notions/preferences, which are not backed by valid/reliable evidence.
Mmmm....let me think about that.....🤔 !!
Thank you, once more, diogenes - fascinating yet hardly surprising!?
Thank you diogenes
This is a huge shame because I have read some interesting Chinese papers which included research on NDT. They appear to be more open minded to its use. Of course they could have been cut and paste hatch jobs.
Hi diogenes
yes noticed a few months ago and I think read an article on it 🤔 same with cheating on coursework whole industry dedicated to producing it. Computer programs being created to try and spot to help academics weed out and discourage widespread cheating.
It the same with bogus Facebook pages - so much rubbish out there.
I got rid of FB over 6 months ago such a cesspool.
I know but I tip toe through the poo and try to add positive content. I'm being selective and just block dross! 😂👍
I’d be far more suspicious of using that site for anything at all, personally, I long for the day it self implodes.
I was kicked off for supposedly sending a message 200 times to my boss - he said it was rubbish, he got the message once. My account was systematically shut down rendering it unusable. Raising it was impossible all I got was robot irrelevant responses. I have no idea wfat the real reason was for all those weird trumped up charges of abusing the site, which I simply never did. I shut it down. They did me a favour that site is big time creepy. A seemingly friendly front designed to steal your data and flog it to all and sundry with highly dodgy people with no real scrutiny running it. Best avoided like the plague as far as I’m concerned.
having a business forces my attendance 😬
Yeah, it’s all pervasive, I’m afraid and hard to bail out in certain situations.
indeed. I spend more time on computer than cooking breakfasts and cleaning!
we’re slaves to those things that were supposed to give us endless leisure time - that notion has turned out to be complete rubbish, they rule us.
The potentially devastating effect of bogus science
Now when I read that title in my feed, I fully expected finger pointing at GPs and endos thus
I'm sure you'd like some T3...just like Mexican marching powder
No I can't increase your dose, you are in range
Oh look last time we tested you, you were hyperthyroid as your TSH is negligible
No I can't increase your meds, you'll get osteoporosis
No, you can't see an (NHS) endo, you are in range
Lose some weight (accompanied by a lip curl)
Move about more
Go away and rejoice (you are in range...at the very top of the range but I'm clueless and I'm fed up with you coming to the surgery, complaining about how ill you feel... )
Had I not found this site, this buffoonery would have had potentially devastating results - not just for me but for my GP whom I may have hospitalised
Turning to your point, diogenes, it is testimony to the fact that we can't possibly expect thyroid treatment to evolve when we are drowning in bad science. Great find.👏👏
I just searched for a non-thyroid topic on PubMed. Of the first hundred hits, something under one third were NOT Chinese.
This isn't to criticise ALL the papers - I've only looked at a few. The one I have read carefully appears to be fine. But what a domination! And I have my doubts they are all as reasonable as the one I've read.
diogenes I’ve been sent a paper from my endocrinologist this morning any thoughts on this study.
I’m meeting with him tomorrow evening so assuming he’s not going to be considering Liothyronine going forward.
liebertpub.com/doi/full/10....
I fear going forward many endocrinologist won’t prescribe Liothyronine if reading this, and surely quality of life for now should be considered and ultimately many lifestyle factors give same out comes and I find it hard to correlate as a T3 therapy alone is the outcome in this study.
Any thoughts?
Hi CoeliacMum
so I noticed diogenes had not got back - don’t think he’s on every day- I am not a medical scientist, but I did study environmental science to doctorate level. I had a read was scrolling down reading then it came to an end - oh is that it ?🙄
So here is my critique of a very strange read from my perspective. I’m hoping someone might be able to proffer another opinion LindaC , helvella what do you guys think?
Critique of paper
So looking at the stats that have been presented in the results. Firstly we need to understand the terms “events per thousand person-years” basically means, for instance, in the case of atrial fibrillation, 2.1 people in a thousand suffered atrial fibrillation in a given year. If you drill that down to percentage per year that would be 0.21 % per year🤔They say 80% of the cohort are less than sixty and means 20 % are over. The age range is so broad and the lifestyles impossible to adequately characterise.
Lifestyles in the different generations could also skew results. Many younger people are not eating healthy diets. The statement of “The study included a relatively healthy group of participants.” This kind of glosses over the complete and profound effect thyroid disorders will have on people and we need to consider the time taken for diagnosis and treatment (years in many cases). There is no mention, no consideration of the irreversible damage done in that time which may now be attributed to medication regime the subjects were on.
They compare treatments, but there is no mention of a control group, or population averages from big data - I find the whole thing awful - I’m really sorry, but I could not trust any quantification if risks from this. I think it is a good example of really poor science.
There is no ‘looking at things in the round’. Under medication has its own suite of health issues that seem to be less well understood, though documented and equally profound.
One should also consider quality of life vs longevity. Certainly from what I have seen in both my instance and that of my parents- the win for doctors is keeping people limping on. My personal choice, now adequately medicated is living well and accepting this may mean for perhaps a few months or even years less. We should be allowed to choose between these two outcomes.
A population study on atrial fibrillation
Thanks for very clear and understandable reply, and I was thinking along the same lines on reading it… I feel he sent me this only a coerce me to rethink about long term Liothyronine (T3) in my combined treatment that I’m on, although I have clinical letters telling my GP how obviously well the small dose of T3 has had on my well-being from him, as I was nearly disabled with lower back/pelvis hip pain along with weakness in thighs and longer I’ve been on T3 improvement is better and I’m almost back to normal, I say almost as mainly it’s my apprehensive approach to not overdoing things, I had nearly 6 months of being incapacitated in total pain.
I don’t know if T3 can have this impact on muscles but if I moved or did anything much, I’d suffer but take days sometimes week to recover, simply turning in bed triggered spasms then dull aches.
Now I if do a bit if feel a twinge through over stretching, I stop and have 5 and start again I can now get on with my things, it’s like I’m actually able to repair/recover now which wasn’t happening before at all only on levothyroxine (T4)
He will expand on why he sent this me prior to my appointment he mentions.
I’m basically in limbo as this endocrinologist is stopping private practice I’ve appointment with my GP in few weeks to ask options and ringing my health insurance tomorrow as we have just switched companies so it’s been a tad time consuming and confusing few weeks 🙄
I’m so well aware of lifestyle and diet can play a big part in outcomes in health and obviously we all expire with something as it wears out depending on genetics and overuse or misuse.
I don’t want to burden my family going back to being bedridden so quality of life and having that choice is very much in my mind.
Thank you again for your help.
I think it is important to be clear on your wishes. I had lots of pain connective tissue problems- hands that wouldn’t make a fist, pain in elbows, plantar fasciitis etc. Everything has resolved itself by getting onto a therapeutic dose as quickly as possible despite years of disparate symptoms that did not appear connected.
For me it’s levo for you it’s combo. I have said on more than one post the time taken to diagnose then treat (properly treat) I believe to be one of the main reasons why people become more complex to sort. Untreated, every condition leads to deterioration and frequently permanent impairment- why on earth don’t they see this also occurs in the endocrine system ? 🙄
Fight your, corner, take no prisoners and make sure your endo does you justice by giving an emphatic statement at handover that supports your wishes.
I hope its not too late to comment, which I do with pleasure. The criticism of no control group makes the paper virtually useless. Also in the the positive area of heart or stroke problems, the p value was in one case virtually 0.05. That means it is highly doubtful that there's any effect at all. Even p = 0.02 is very weak. So I would counter him by saying that he should read and understand more carefully before sending such trash.
Thanks so much for reply… not too late, I see him later today and this appointment is last and tying up loose ends as he’s stopping private practice … I have absolutely no idea other than persuade me to stop Liothyronine (T3) why he sent it… I have less than 2 months supply of T3 left so need to sort another endocrinologist fast really.
Liothyronine has had such a positive outcome so far, he himself said I’m a poor converter and throwing more levothyroxine was doing zilch other than made FT4 go out of range TSH too low adjusting and adding only small dose of 10 mcg of Liothyronine has helped, and I am trying to address some nutritional areas eg ferritin levels could be better as believe this has some importance in helping conversion further.
I was almost disabled due to mobility issues which I had thought for years was probably a thyroid issue and having my independence and life back now is of more importance than what will may be along the way… anything non medical related could happen regardless if someday they should find this medication does cause any problems in a few. Medics also need to understand it’s quality of life, not just prolonging life mostly with patients in agony and the extended family being put through torment too, through being in a state of being continuously unwell or incapacitated in some way.
I will copy links and will use if required thanks.
I was quite surprised he’s sent such a rubbish article myself and wanted other’s opinions.
Thanks again
Also sling this one back at him:
Observational Study
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2016 Dec;85(6):918-925.
doi: 10.1111/cen.13052. Epub 2016 Mar 21.
Liothyronine use in a 17 year observational population-based study - the tears study
Graham P Leese 1, Enrique Soto-Pedre 2, Louise A Donnelly 2 PMID: 26940864 DOI: 10.1111/cen.13052
This showed no adverse effects on T3 only.
Im not surprised.
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