I know that many of you will not want to hear what is said in this study but I think it needs to be said - because somehow I don't see many politicians who want everything to open up will want to talk about it. Rome has already announced they want masks to be compulsory as well as the other measures when schools open in 2 weeks and Berlin has a major surge in cases just 2 weeks after their schools opened.
Contrary to the opinions thrown around that younger children don't carry and spread the virus, in fact they are possibly super-spreaders - just as they are for everything else they catch!! They just get ill less often.
The implication is that if you want to spend time with your grandchildren it will be prudent to be very careful, wear masks (they can pretend to be bank robbers) and be very diligent about handwashing and cleaning behind them. Safest of course will be not seeing them at home - go to the park - or not seeing them at all.
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Those of us with children and/or grandchildren well remember that the first term of a new school year always has been a melting pot for all sorts of virus/illnesses etc throughout the years.
This autumn (in northern hemisphere) it’s just going to be magnified....maybe with dire consequences for grandma or granddad.
No matter what politician may think, and however teachers try - social distancing in children goes against their natural tendencies.
I am a retired teacher of primary school children. I and colleagues were often sick soon after a new term started...colds, tonsillitis, chest infections, etc. Coincidence?
We always had the same problem - DIL works with special needs children. She is very good since covid and any sign of symptoms keeps away from us and her parents. All a worry.
My brother and his wife contracted Covid-19 in early March well before the lockdown. They had looked after their 2 granddaughters for the weekend from Friday to Sunday evening. . The younger one is 3 and attends ( or did at that time) a nursery school. She had a high temperature and a cough. Her mother took her to the GP after the weekend and he prescribed antibiotics………………
By Tuesday both my brother and his wife were very unwell with high temperature and flu like symptoms. My sister in law also had continuous nausea and vomiting and lost 1.5 stone in 2 weeks. They live near Durham and said they felt very unsupported by the health services. They were told by the GP not to attend the surgery as they couldn’t help, not to call 111 as they were overwhelmed and not to visit the hospital as that was only for those needing a respirator. They stayed at home and family brought cooked meals and soup and left them on their doorstep. It was several weeks before they felt well and my sister in law is still working from home until at least the New Year.
I think like many people, they were lulled into that false sense of security around children not being carriers of Covid -19. To be fair, their 3 year old granddaughter recovered quite quickly and neither her 6 year old sister or her mother caught the virus. But she did pass it onto her daddy too.
That experience has made me quite wary of spending time with our own grandchildren and since the shielding measures were paused, we’ve only met up in the park once for a family picnic. I do miss seeing them but we do have to consider the risks.
I'm positive that children have played a major role in the spread in the extended families seen in BAME communities and here in Italy in cities. I really couldn't understand how anyone could assume that children didn't spread it - our local lab chap said right at the start the biggest problem would be the ones with few or no symptoms who were still spreading it. That is going to be the problem with returning holiday-makers - especially if they don't quarantine for 14 days properly and there are the airports demanding shorter quarantine just after they have found the 7 days was never enough, 14 is barely long enough.
The only answer is to prevent covid from entering the school in the first place and in some areas this will prove impossible.
They are trying here, as returning international students will have to be quarantined (self-isolating) for two weeks upon arrival. This should help with the university situation, or the boarding schools. But once covid is transmitting around our community again I think the schools become really high risk environments. None of the teachers and parents in any of our provinces (all have different plans) are satisfied with current proposed measures to keep schools safe.
I think the major problem will be with children in preschool/primary/intermediate schools - older pupils should have a better understanding (one hopes).
I actually think all but the youngest children could be compliant. I don't think we give enough credit to children. They mostly want to please the adults in their lives. We teach them how to cross the street safely when they are only five years old, surely they will learn about wearing masks and associating only with a small unique cohort? However the physical realities of most of our schools will make things awfully difficult if covid reappears in our community, which is likely inevitable.
I have my fingers crossed that we'll be able to visit our little family in Ontario before our granddaughter starts daycare, and after the train starts running again. January. Sleeper tickets are booked 🤞😏
Exactly! At first public health said only children in their seventh year of school and up needed to wear masks, but they've now changed it to grade four. Frankly I think anyone past junior kindergarten, which is four-year-olds, should be wearing masks. They should also be restricted to relatively small, unique cohorts and probably have a shortened schoolday with online learning at home added.
I think it is 6 here but I've seen smaller children quite happy. Unfortunately they have fallen into the "it's OK outside" trap. But the numbers are rising again - in this region so far it is almost entirely migrant workers and people returning from abroad (they include Italy in that ) but that is bound to change,
It seems to be people arriving by air here. Every so often we hear of a new case, someone doing their 2 week isolation, then shortly after an announcement that people on such on such a flight (a couple of weeks earlier) may have been exposed. So if we are smart we wear masks as told, even though there doesn't seem to be community transmission at the moment, because you never know if there's an asymptomatic carrier from one of those flights. No international flights in NS at the moment, but of course they just come into one of the four allowed international airports, and transfer. I don't know why they don't have to isolate at point of entry. Seems like a potential gaping hole to me, and has in fact been the source of cases here, although so far contact tracing seems to have kept things contained.
Couldn't agree more. And as good a reason not to want to fly as any at present, How could it be safe to fly when you couldn't have other people in your own home?
The other day a friend suggested four of us (who used to meet semi-regularly before covid) get together for a meal at a restaurant. She explained how she and her husband had dined there, and there were plexiglass dividers between tables, etc. I pointed out the four of us getting together would be four people from four different families getting together in an indoor space, unmasked because we were eating. In the end one of the other women invited us over for tea in her garden! So the thought of hours in a plane, plus the many people you encounter in the airports, and then you have to get to and from the airport, no thank you. Grocery shopping for half an hour is stressful enough! The train service states under the current circumstances if there is a need to cancel booked trips we can do so without penalty, a big improvement over the past. They will be running the train again starting in early November but not accepting any new bookings until January. This gives us a really small window as grandchild will be introduced to daycare mid-January, as her mother gets ready to return to work. After that, no visits until we have that much hoped for vaccine, or she's old enough to wear a mask - years.
My 2yr old granddaughter wears a mask quite happily. Never been a problem. If parents make a fuss in front of their kids, the kids soon catch on a make a fuss, like with everything
It depends on the child as well. I gave my eleven year old grandson one to wear while we were socially distanced in the garden and he had it off and was twirling it around and playing with it the whole time even though I'd told him it was important. That said, his mother grumbles about wearing a mask saying she can't breathe properly - who can? - so obviously he's not properly trained.
It’s a good job there’s an ocean between me and mine. Their masks provide my daughter with a peaceful drive into work on the school and nursery run. So cruel 😌
Oh no! Really didn’t want this to be true. Pre COVID, we looked after granddaughters ( 4 and 6 yrs) 3 days a week plus occasional babysitting, so we’re very close. We only see them for a few hours, maybe twice a week now and it’s the highlight of our isolated existence. Just finished making a family meal for everyone and love to see them jump out of the car and race up to our front door. Up to now, it’s always been a gazebo in the garden type get together but with the weather worsening that’s already not always an option. It would be very difficult to get them to wear masks. The young one is lively and flighty and the older one has had some clothing sensitivity issues. Glad you shared this article anyway PMRpro, we need to be informed and we have to be very careful until a vaccine is found. It could be worse - we could be separated by war, for instance!
I would love to post a long reply, pointing out how as usual, most likely, the UK government will be unprepared for this until its too late. Unfortunately I am too weak to do that because I am still very post operative from a hip replacement.
Over the years I have been following this forum I have learnt to trust PMRpros observations on most things medical. In march I was diagnosed as needing a new hip and after reading that Pro's summing up of the pandemic situation agreed with my own, I desided to go private for my operation because I wasn't prepared to spend my retirement in pain waiting for the NHS to find a space for me. It paid off because on the first day he could, my surgeon operated.
All I want to say is that if Pro has concerns, please listen.
Sorry longer than I expected and now I need to lie down!
I had a spinal and got over that quite quickly. Hey you're more bionic than I am!
The x-ray operator made me smile as she called out "but you've got twins! Mr T is such a perfectionist" Evidently it exactly matches my previous replacement, I'm not making medical history.
Won't argue with that, recovery is so quick. This time the sedation was light enough for me to hear some of what was happening and surprisingly it was reassuring, things were actually happening.
When they did my leg after skiing I was fully conscious and the anaesthetists (all 4 of them) were practising their English. When they removed the metalwork in Scotland I asked for a spinal, they were surprised I wanted it - but they knocked me out. I was NOT amused!
Silent spreaders indeed~! Multiple colleges that opened for classes have had to close their doors and go back to remote learning. It just about makes me crazy when I hear people dismiss the little ones or young adults and being resilient, tough, healthy, not carriers....Bull-oney.
I'm on the verge of having to tell one friend I cannot have her at my home. Her dismissive attitude about the virus is making me on edge. 😥 She has relatives that flew into Maine from Arizona for a funeral of a relative that died of Covid~!
I cannot control anyone else....but my choices are obvious.
Absolutely! I had a difficult decision to make when family wanted to bring over 94 year old uncle after losing his wife. We've had no one over our doorstep since lockdown and the thought of doing so just yet unnerved me. We could sit in the garden but it may be too hot/wet. What if they needed the loo? I explained I'd been shielding for months and wasn't ready and this was accepted with good grace and understanding. You must do what is best for you. If others don't understand that's their problem.
I felt uncomfortable...but thought...how uncomfortable would I be if I ever got infected or how horrid would I feel if I gave the virus to anyone else. That really narrowed it down~! xo
Thanks for this info. I am attending a back to work interview tomorrow as I have been on the government CEV List since lockdown. As I have said before I work with children who have profound and complex needs and social distancing is impossible. Over 100 children and a staff of 70 as staff to children ratio high. I am frightened and very anxious about returning to school. I will be able to retire in 10 months and quite frankly want to reach that point having worked for nearly 50 years. Just because shielding has paused, my risk remains the same. I don’t know what I can do or what my rights are as it seems the government have abdicated all responsibility and protection for people like me. It isn’t just the children it is also proximity to other staff as some activities and care require 2/3 people to be carried out. I have searched for info on my situation or similar but there is very little out there. I have spoken to my union who have informed me that I must have a separate risk assessment but I still don’t see how I can avoid close contact. I’m very tearful about this feel overwhelmed with fear. Only a vaccine is going to make it safe for me and that still seems a long way off. Sorry if this is a bit long winded, just needed to share my situation.
Not at all - these are things that are being dismissed or ignored. I don't have a problem with schools opening up but stop pussy-footing around the risks. They are small for the children - though I wouldn't agree with Chris Witty that they are negligible as he seems to imply. But less so for the staff and the extended family, especially the frail and elferly.
thank you so much for your brilliant helpful post. two points. firstly, please consider places like china and hong kong, whose children are all brought up to wear face coverings and it is the norm, and so it must be here too. we are protecting each other. secondly, you can buy on amazon uk lovely little hats with an all round 360 degree transparent screen covering the child's head, very affordably. and fun for them to wear, and affords extra protection for children, and consequently us too. I've said for five months, be the wiser , wear a visor.... it's common sense. soon it will be dark at 4 pm, cold and wet, we will all be indoors for many months, flu will be rife like it is every winter. we must have as much protection as possible. cv19 does not distinguish between a respiratory tract that's 6 months old or 106 years old. it's up to us to defend our faces, and masks, visors and hats/caps are a great shield, which ever side you're on. best wishes grandmother.
Many thanks for this important link. I have sent it to my MP.
I am still following my instinct and assuming that everyone I meet has the virus - at over 80 I think that's wise. Nobody has crossed the threshhold of our house since mid-March - sad but necessary and family support us.
I'm grateful we are not being bombed! I'm grateful for the internet and brilliant communication with loved ones. I'm grateful my shopping is on line, and I can meet people on Zoom. I count my blessings every day. I'm not letting my heart break at not stroking my grandchildren's' little heads. I'm grateful to see them in my garden safely full PPE, at a distance, no shared food drinks, tinkles and never indoors, but hundreds of stories, songs, games, smiles and virtual hugs. I'm grateful I'm not in pain thank God and thank Drugs... and I pray every day for those who are lonely and suffering and for a vaccine. You are so brave and amazing! Your instinct is your very best brightest weapon to shield you from this threat. Thank God for your dear family support. It is a sad situation, but I thank God I'm not alone, and not in Africa or India, or in pain or not in Hospital... We are a strong generation and we will survive. You have been a winner because Covid has not crossed your threshold so well done you!!! we must guard ourselves now against the winter, the flue, the return to school and asymptomatic super spreaders, and the virus. we are better equipped now with knowledge than we were in march... we'll be ok.
I remember back when my son was at school many years ago. I caught everything he brought home. I could almost write September's off every year!
Having worked in a nursing home we also had a spate of infections, flu, Norovirus, strep throat, colds you name it we got it as soon as all the grandkids went to school and visited their relative.
I think the whole mismanagement of this pandemic is down to our incompetent government following the economics not the science. I know it's a first for our government but what a shambles.
Children are resilient. They would happily wear masks if asked. Making masks could be an activity in schools too. I've seen lots of kids wearing masks around the town even ones in pushchairs, they a seem a good deal happier mask wearing than I am! So let them express themselves by wearing masks, let them know they are helping by doing so, teach children infection control in science and explain how it helps other people. I think most children, especially older ones would feel less scared and more empowered if they understood why they are being asked to do certain things. Educate them I say
Absolulutely!!! I - and teacher friends - all think we greatly underestimate children and their capacity to learn and understand.
Have forwarded the link to two of my daughters who work in the school system. The instructional specialist will have one on one sessions starting next week. She will have a plastic face shield I understand, as it is necessary for her mouth to be visible. The nurse is setting up ppe and procedures for normal medication dispensing and handling illness as it comes up. Going to be complicated I’m afraid. I worry.
Meanwhile the UK Professor Chris Whitty (ana our government stooge) says that it would be more harmful to children to miss school than to return. Yep, I'm sure he's right. But he chooses to completely ignore the point that children can catch the virus at school and carry it back to their homes where, presumably, older people live! He must know this but is not allowed to say it by those pulling his strings, I'm thinking. And the BBC trots it out.
Someone pointed out to me earlier today that if children carry it home perhaps we'll get to a situation where all the adults have died and young people rule the country.
The problem is if you keep children out of school for say another 3 months until Christmas, that is going to bring a raft of other issues. Learning problems, mental issues will increase along with physical abuse - something that no-one wants.
It’s a very difficult situation, but we have to find a way around it, whether that be individually or as a government. Life has to go on -covid cannot bring it to a completely halt.
I don't have a problem with the schools returning per se - what I do have a problem with is the ignoring of work not done in the UK that suggestes that, while children may not get ill in the same way as older adults, they CARRY the virus and CAN pass it on which is never mentioned in public.
We need to be aware - they were keen enough to tell us to stay at home for 12 weeks in the spring but now they are trying to tell us that it has all changed, that children aren't as contagious as adults. But scientifically that is rubbish.
I hear a very different selection of information living here - there is a lot more monitoring going on here but even so the figures are rising. They are now almost as high as in the UK - not that the UK politicians want anyone to know how many cases there are and stopped announcing the figure. The T&T in the UK isn't working and, above all, saying "if you have symptoms" before testing is too late and not enough. A majority of people with Covid don't have symptoms ...
Yes, agree with the resultant problems if children don't return. But that has to be weighed against - for example, my two daughters who are in jobs with children with special needs and they, themselves, have health issues. As PMRpro states, children can carry the virus and this is being either ignored or shoved under the carpet by people who should know better.
There must be a way forward and I am confident that, with the will to do it, schools could open soon, perhaps combined with on-line tutoring?
As for Track and Trace - won't work as designed at present. The UK government needs to do some forward thinking - the very thing they are incapable of doing, it seems.
Why bother with the qualifier "forward"? None of them are scientists - and don't appear to get that scientists will rarely say it as clearly as black and white. They are worse than the caricature Englishman!
Our districts in Michigan, USA are all over the map. Some are going all virtual, others half virtual half face to face. All have to wear masks and from JK (four year olds) all the way on up. I predict, nevertheless, that there will be outbreaks all over after a few weeks in school for those going back into the buildings. Huge mistake in my opinion but we've been a nation with no leadership or sane response to this pandemic, and that is part of the problem. I just keep praying for a vaccine that works!
It is so difficult without leadership...and now it is too advanced to contact trace. District by district...science based decisions...distance...masks....when there is an outbreak in a class, hopefully they will quarantine. We are in a mess in the states for sure. I will soon be moving to Indiana from Maine where the rules are pretty clear. Fingers crossed for all...
Our grand daughters will be home schooled this year. I have taught K and 1st grades in the past and would like to be there at least once a week to help with phonics. I will make sure I wear my shield with them but since they will not be in a school face to face situation I am hoping they will be as healthy as they have been since school was closed this past year. Their mom doesn't take them to the grocery store or into many stores but they do go to church at a park on Sundays. I will be wise in my exposure, but I would miss them terribly if I couldn't see them at least once a week. So far my exposure to them this summer, I've been fine.
I just retired myself from working as an art teacher (elementary) in Huron Valley (Milford, Highland, suburbs of Detroit) for 20 years. I was substitute teaching when all this hit and haven't been back since. Don't think I will either, way to dangerous!
I completely understand the need for us to shield, however the main point of shielding was to protect the NHS. We need to get a sense of perspective around this pandemic and use common sense to protect ourselves from situations one may be uncomfortable with.
According to last weeks economist there have been 4 million people in the UK who have tested positive for Covid and have had symptoms. Of those 3 - 4 % have been hospitalised, 30 - 40% of these have needed to go into an ICU. In these patients the death rate was 50% but is now below 30% due to use of fewer ventilators and dexamethasone and more experience in treating patients. There is emerging evidence that the virus is becoming more infectious but is causing less severe disease. Meantime the economy is being crippled, children are missing out on critical education, routine NHS operations and cancer follow-up has been significantly reduced. Cancer patients are presenting later and with more severe disease hence the death rate from cancer is predicted to be higher than that from Covid.
As a PMR patient (9 months on steroids and methotrexate - note there is no reported link between cancer and PMR medication) I was diagnosed with a Grade 3 invasive breast cancer following a routine mammogram in 2018. I am very much aware that if this had occured in 2020 I may have been facing a much worse prognosis that I was in 2018.
"We need to get a sense of perspective around this pandemic and use common sense to protect ourselves from situations one may be uncomfortable with"
Exactly - and we are the people who potentially will overwhelm the NHS. Young people probably won't - but when they pass on CV to us we will become pretty sick and need more care. So it is up to us to distance - especially from the younger people who are not sticking to sensible precautions. It is the same in every country - and some places manage it all better than others.
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