Sexism

[Mogberi]

Quite a strong reaction to the MCP comment, which was possibly careless rather than deliberate. Nevertheless I am gonna make the deliberate sexist remark that in my experience women tolerate pain better than men. As regards the gym I go three times a week and find it very helpful. Couldn't have done it before pred.

[Blearyeyed]

I'm not sure about that , there's certain types of pain we all get used to but we Women are just as likely as Men to bounce around like a Kangaroo if we stub a toe or have a paper cut as the next Man !😋😂😂😂

Hope you get some good feedback on your pain question ( especially from Men , and Carers of Men , Newbies and All ) Pop on and include your experience of PMR and Pain for Mogberi

[scats]

I couldn't do much without pred!

I mentioned my brother in the last thread, I know he had to tolerate a lot of pain and just get on with it, no choice, animals don't make allowences. As a result of this he had numerous flares and even ended up in hospital. I am retired and have been able to pace myself better, but have had setbacks due to stress.

We are all on our journry and we all have our own strengths and prioties I don't think it's as simple as male/female.

[Hidden]

I think it was one of the responses that caused the issue rather than the original post. That aside.... Pain is a very interesting and subjective experience. I can be in so much agony from my back sometimes I can't breathe properly, but I just tell myself I will feel better tomorrow. Then I get a paper cut or stub my toe and I have a drama queen moment. My dad was a miner and I saw him get a spring from an up and over garage door ping into his eye, broken legs or amputated fingers without complaint. I remember him going for a walk with a pair of pliers to pull his tooth. I think I learned that the worse something is pain wise, the less I react to it. It also shifts as you adapt to chronic pain and you new number 5 on the pain scale was number 10 2 years before.

[Mogberi in reply to Hidden]

Of course every individual is different in the way they tolerate pain and research shows that people can build up a remarkable tolerance over time even in extreme cases. Interesting subject.

[Hidden in reply to Mogberi]

More interesting than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.... Which is probably somewhere towards the drama queen end of the pain spectrum!

[Blearyeyed in reply to Hidden]

Yes , we have had the odd side conversation in posts about the subjective way we tolerate pain with Chronic Illness from time to time , and it's an area of Pain that I find really interesting and doesn't seem to be properly researched.

I think we are all probably in the same boat as time goes on with long term conditions. What initially sent us struggling to A and E we get used to tolerating , and over time , the same pain will only make us grab a hot water bottle and cuddle down in the hope it goes away.

It's why I always smirk these days when I get one of those Pain Assessment sheets in the waiting room , as now I will mark something at a 5 that I would have judged as 8/9 years before , and so the method of collecting information for long term pain sufferers is not very accurate or a true picture of what is going on .

Having had Chronic Pain conditions and many Migraines and Jaw Pain from my other illnesses for years before GCA/ PMR I hadn't thought about questioning those symptoms more . If I hadn't had visual issues and been diagnosed with another condition , Uvietis, and then had checks done by the right senior opthalmologist , I'd have just thought that the other Pain Issues I was having were getting worse , and could have lost my sight because of it.

I think that long term reaction to ongoing pain is the same for Men and Women.

And , it's that , that needs more research , advice and consideration when we become Ill.

We get into the habit of getting the same pain in the same places and begin to dismiss it or brush it off as "same as usual ", or " just another ache" but that's the time we might be in danger of missing something new that we could have solved quicker and we pay for it later.

We especially fall foul of Flares because we do this , as we spend many years, even when healthy, ignoring Pain from overdoing it at Work or Doing Sport. When we start to feel the same Pain or Tiredness quicken with something like PMR , we begin by trying the same method of brushing if off , " it will feel better tomorrow " or " I'll work it off" and we expect after a nights rest the Joint Pain will go as usual. We don't think we need to Pace some things because we have felt that sort of Pain or done those things with niggles one hundred times before , it's normal , and the steroids will take care of it. Next day , we are floored like an Elephant on roller skates.

My Male Cousin is a case in point . Now a retired Fireman and ex Motorcycle Racer , an all round Daredevil . He fell off his bike and injured his neck in his last race ( at age 51!) , but when he was x-rayed they asked him when exactly had he broken his back the year before!

He thought back and the only accident he had , had wasn't work related , he'd fallen off a ladder cleaning gutters 6ft off the ground, but because it wasn't an unusual accident and he was used to Pain from bike accidents and pulling muscles , he assumed he'd done that again , took a month off work but wasn't checked out . He didn't know he had actually broken his back and was just very lucky that it healed the way it did. He fractured a bone in his neck but they showed him that with those previous injuries he could have broken the spine again and become paralysed from it .

It's not that he's immune to Pain , I've heard him react to a knock on the head from a rogue door , like a Banshee , but he became subjective in his reaction to Repetitive Pain and could have paid highly for it.

So , whichever Sex , I think the lesson is that it's good to Manage with Pain but don't ignore it . It is the warning that our bodies give us to show they need a break.

[Hidden in reply to Blearyeyed]

I was discussing it with the physio at the surgery who said I had a Complex relationship with pain. True but I know that. I told him that I only go to the Dr's with new symptoms or when something gets dramatically worse. But it has taken me around 18mths of faffing to decide yes my backs worse it's not just muscle spasms it tender at the vertebrae in 4 or 5 places and my foot goes tingly and numb if I put light pressure on them. Perhaps someone with a different history would have been banging on doors before having sciatica in both legs. Fortunately I got a cancellation at the msk physio unit for Monday at which they can refer me if they think it's necessary. 🤣🤣🤣

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

I have been watching old episodes of the Yorkshire Ambulance Service TV programmes. For both land and air ambulance callouts they are split fairly evenly between Bikers of both sorts, Horse riding accidents and RTCs. Then there are farmers in remote areas: an 80-whatever year old who fell off the house/barn roof or a ladder while cutting back a tree/hedge. Or trampled by his livestock. Amongst the farmers, in particular, they deny pain - and when they DO say it's sore the paramedics all say it must be somewhere above a 10 for others and you know it must be serious.

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Yes , that repetitive pain that we just get used to can end up being the ultimate cause of long term damage.

Much like people having gastric reflux and indigestion for years and not recognising the onset of a heart attack .

Or people with Concentration issues from Neuralgic conditions missing the fact that they have had a mini stroke.

[Hidden in reply to PMRpro]

It makes me think of the French and Saunders sketch where they were 2 country women. One accidentally cut her fingers off and did the oh dear nevermind... And fed them to the dog. I think you are not far off them with your toe. 😂😂😂

[PMRpro Ambassador]

It wasn't the post per se - it was one comment that lit the touchpaper. Maybe it was careless - but given the current climate it shouldn't happen. All my working life in a male-dominated field I met "banter" of all sorts - that was at best rude and at worst bullying. It is time it stopped as it cheapens any discussion.

I was looking forward to a sensible discussion - we have had quite a few men on the other two PMRGCA forums and we have had excellent discussions about the differences they experience and the role of exercise and related stuff which do vary between high-level athletes and others, male or female. Over the years I have seen a similar variation in PMR across men to in women, the easy/hard versions, the long/short versions and exercise/no exercise versions. What appears to possibly link it all are two basic factors: muscle bulk pre-PMR and how long it takes to get a diagnosis - because the longer it is, the more condition anyone loses and the harder it is to get back.

Men do also tend to have very different experiences - sometimes because they have very physical jobs that they aren't able to continue with but also how badly the PMR hits them . SkinnyJonny was in a wheelchair - and took a couple of years to get back to running and now is fully back to climbing the Himalayas. Michdonn also spent a bit of time in a wheelchair but is back to teaching ski classes - at over 80. The link between those two is that they used a very slow exercise programme once they could do something. I haven't heard of many overall who were that badly affected - and only one woman I think where you would expect quite a few given the proportions of men and women who develop PMR.

I think it is fair to say that anyone who has to continue to work in whatever capacity is going to have a harder time. I worked as a freelance translator for several years of PMR both treated with pred and none - I couldn't have done a "proper" job that first 5 years where I had had to commute, even by car door to door. I didn't have to get dressed in work gear, that would have finished me before I even thought about the commute! But with pred it became a breeze working from home. But all the way through, the key was being able to rest when I needed or wanted - it resulted in late evenings and weekend working but I could rest and work. And maybe that is why retired women are perhaps perceived by some as managing well - no-one insists the domestic duties are done in a suit and high heels and we can sit down or adjust how we do things in a way we can't in the workplace. But men WILL have a hard time if they are still working, especially in some jobs, and possibly be forced to retire.

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Thanks so much for adding your years of observation to the debate on this topic.

Because you have seen so many stories from both Men and Women on the forum over the years with different lifestyles and body types , you've been able to hit the nail on the head on this issue .

Not getting to hear about the Male Experiences you heard about from members whom may not regularly contribute anymore , and getting to compare it to that of Women would have been a ' missing link ' in the discussion for Men reading it .

Men do get some symptoms and side effects women don't ( or experience them at different intensities) , but often , the Pain, physical and mobility issues linked to PMR and GCA follow the same pattern for both Men and Women who have had a similar level of physical activity and similar muscle mass or have the same additional health conditions before they became Ill with PMR/ GCA as well.

It would be great to hear more Male experiences in posts and updates , I'm always saying it. Although I know Men aren't always comfortable talking about themselves in that way , doing so would naturally and healthily start more vital fact sharing on this important part of PMR/ GCA and give us the rewards if hearing the Male Perspective.

[SheffieldJane]

I think there is scientific research to support your hypothesis. I heard something on Radio 4 the other day, something to do with childbirth.

Please don’t overdo your gym sessions. Pred provides pain, stiffness and inflammation relief, but does nothing for the underlying disease. You can unwittingly hurt yourself, muscles can be damaged.

[Marilyn1959 in reply to SheffieldJane]

Don't know about childbirth making women tolerate pain. I started to cry and midwife asked me what was wrong. 'It hurts', I said. To put it into perspective this was just my first contraction!!!!!! Needless to say I have a veeeeerrry low pain threshold. I had sections for both of mine. I suspect this decision may have been made, in my case, due to the decibels reached screaming and I was no doubt disturbing others!!!!!!!

[SheffieldJane in reply to Marilyn1959]

Yes my first birth was like that. Epidurals from then on. Lying there feeling faintly fraudulent. How can they measure it anyway, it will all be anecdotal and vary between individuals?

Silly own goal of a point. I was trying to be supportive. I like what chaps bring to this site generally. 😉

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Marilyn1959]

The first section was fine - I had an epidural and they left it for BP and pain management for longer than usual and recovery was really good. The second was a very different experience - no epidural and very little pain relief post-op (different country and culture I suppose) but the post-op pain was horrendous with the uterus contracting down against the stitches. I could only think at the time that a PV birth had to be preferable!

[Constance13 in reply to PMRpro]

The men must be enjoying this!😂😂😂

[Marilyn1959 in reply to PMRpro]

Ouch!

[Boss302Fan]

I think there are so many different types of pain and how it can manifest over time that it’s impossible to make a generalized statement as to what gender seems to tolerate pain better than the other. It’s all perception as to the best of my knowledge there is currently no way to quantify pain and even if one could measure the signal strength coming from nerves...let’s say the unit of measurement was Joules and we found 10 patients with the same type pain and the measurement of that pain was the same (let’s say 3 J for this example). I bet if each person was asked to rate their pain on a scale of 1 to 10, you’d get different readings. It’s subjective.

Maybe people build up a tolerance to pain based on life experiences. If you are a boxer and routinely get hit in the face do get used to it? If we constantly have pain at the same location, over time don’t we get used to at least some of that we don’t even notice it, but if someone else was new to that same pain may incapacitate them?

What think is more important is not what gender, race, whatever can tolerate pain better but whether if any of these groups for a given disease experience a different type or location of the pain.

For example lets say mainly in men PMR expresses itself only in the legs and it’s assumed women would too. But in reality women primarily experience the inflammation and pain in their abdomen. If this wasn’t discovered think how many women could be easily misdiagnosed.

Also, sometimes it’s not what you ask, but how you ask it and the sensitivity of those reading.

The only thing I’ll say about the recent issue was it got blown way out of proportion and the person probably was embarrassed and didn’t know how to get himself out of it.

For the future I recommend if you find a post offending either PM the poster directly telling them politely how the post made you feel and ask then to edit it. If they refuse, then PM a moderator to handle internally. Berating someone publicly is never a good thing. I don’t want a response to this last paragraph, it is just an observation and recommendation made for the good of all.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Boss302Fan]

Must say my Pain over the years from various health issues has often made me feel like I was being beaten up by Mike Tyson , I think he might have even bitten my ear!

And it is the repetitive nature of that pain as you say that starts to make the experience of it over time very different . Pain is subjective .

Thanks for joining in

[Marilyn1959 in reply to Boss302Fan]

Hear, hear.

[Hidden]

I like this overview of the way pain can seep into our lives and start to make its home there.

instituteforchronicpain.org...