Personal Welfare Deputyship refusal

[Drjm]

Hello all,

I applied to the Court of Protection to be a deputy for my son. I got the Property and Affairs aspect but was refused Personal Welfare.

I am aware Personal Welfare is difficult to get but I had all the arguments about knowing my son the best and needing to be involved in interlinked decisions about him over a long period of time.

I know other parents with children with a very similar profile who have got Personal Welfare deputyship. The difference is my son has moved to supported living whereas the other young people all live at home. I don’t know if this was key or not.

My son has very complex mental and physical health issues along with severe learning difficulties.

Best interest decisions seem to work for us largely and I am involved in decisions about him.

It always concerns me though that I could be overlooked in decisions about him and not even know about it but, of course, I have no proof this has happened.

One of the reasons I may not have succeeded is because there was no particular pressing issue or dispute that triggered the application. It was more of a general authority I was requesting because of my son’s vulnerability and inability to have a say in any aspect of his life.

I wanted the deputyship to have more say if there major decisions about changing his living circumstance or other aspects of his life where I would have less status than some professionals who may barely know him.

I am disappointed not to have got this and want to do my best for my son.

The response I got from the Court said there was nothing to stop me applying again in future if there was a specific issue that needed to be decided.

I can appeal against the decision within a limited time frame. My question is whether it is worth doing so as my arguments would be the same as presented before? Or is it better to accept this now and apply in future if there is a specific issue?

The other aspect is that I did the forms myself so I do wonder now if it might have been better to have employed a legal professional?

Thank you for reading this.

[notmyfault2]

Hi We have a Welfare deputyship for our daughter, We did go through a solicitor giving her examples of problems we had experienced with Medication and welfare etc .It was stated to us that Health and welfare deputyship is difficult to obtain But truly if we hadn’t had that deputyship after the year we have just been through fighting her cause ,we or really my daughter would have had decisions made for her by others who did not know her . You are the best person who knows your son and should have a legal foothold to be able to work for your son Obviously finance has got to be taken into consideration, we are pensioners but were able to pay back the bill on a monthly basis . Hope this if some help and good luck

[Drjm in reply to notmyfault2]

Hi,

Thank you for sharing your experiences and sorry to hear about the problems you’ve encountered with your daughter’s care.

I am frustrated about the situation and the presumption that the Court and any professionals are better placed than me to safeguard my son’s interests.

Thanks again.

[MontyCat]

Hi Drjm, you have my sympathy on this issue. I also applied for Health & Welfare deputyship for my daughter who has very limited communication skills and severe learning difficulties. I already had deputyship for Property & Finance. My daughter has previously been in supported living and as a result of the "care" provided I made a formal complaint to the local authority, which was upheld. My daughter currently resides with me and her step-dad. Despite the issues we have had and legitimate concerns around safeguarding and me having legal weight to my opinions in any matters concerning her health and welfare, my application was refused. I used a solicitor, and then secured the services of another solicitor to appeal, since the first one did not want to take on the appeal. My appeal was also refused and, what is most shocking about this is that the appeal was heard by the same judge who ruled on the original application. How on earth that is a fair and legitimate process beats me. Like you, I have been advised that I could possibly secure emergency deputyship for any one particular issue but I have to say that my faith in the system, already fragile, has taken yet another knock and I do wonder what will become of our vulnerable children once we are dead and gone. How on earth a court of people who do not live the lives we do can possibly be better placed to make decisions for our children than us is beyond belief. I wish you the very best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

[Drjm in reply to MontyCat]

Hi MontyCat,

Thank you for your reply and so sorry that your experience sounds truly awful.

I am shocked that the same Judge heard your appeal but that is useful to know. One of my considerations if I went for an appeal was that a different Judge could view the same information in a different light but that is not assured as your case shows.

I think your experience shows how totally arbitrary these systems can be. The whole tone of communications over these most sensitive of matters feels brusque and dismissive.

I am not surprised you have lost confidence. There is a real imbalance of power when we are only trying to do the best for our loved ones.

I wish you and your family all the best.

[MontyCat in reply to Drjm]

Thank you for your kind wishes. My assumption had been that a different judge would hear the appeal, and my solicitor did not advise me in advance of submitting the appeal, that this would not necessarily be the case, so I feel I was duped (at significant cost). The appeal was submitted under rule 13.4 (5), and only after the appeal had been refused did my solicitor advise that under rule 13 the same judge is allowed to reconsider the application. If you decide to appeal, please be very aware of this and ask whether an appeal can be brought under different rules.

[Drjm in reply to MontyCat]

Thanks for the extra detail - much appreciated.

[Tracidu in reply to MontyCat]

I agree totaly with your post , Does anyone know why its so hard to get health and wefare part .? What is the reasoning ? I have the finance Court of Protection for my adult son who has very little speech or understanding . The thought of someone making decisions for him that doesnt know him is a massive concern .

The solicitor I used for the finance part said it was very hard to get the other part but couldn't give me a reason why ? he said I would be included in decisions , Im not too sure about that if Im not with my son at the time ?

[MontyCat in reply to Tracidu]

I don't know the answer to that question, but read LaVerite's post for clues. It's a massively corrupt system is all I can think.

[LaVerite]

Hi Drjm. Another sad case where the authorities seek to deny relatives any say in the care of their loved ones. We have gone through the same process and we're stripped of all legal rights. The council demonstrated they would rather throw ratepayers money at top barristers and several professionals (who threw hours of their time into the case) to make a case which a) puffed themselves up and said all the right things to persuade a judge to believe they were above reproach, b) during the court case throw all sorts of additional resources my relatives way (now unsurprisingly no longer in force) c) hurl vitriol in our direction over unjustifiable claims that we were not acting in our relatives best interests financially, yet they were (so they claimed so eloquently with the help of their costly counsel), and c) worst of all, charged our relative over £40,000 of their own funds on legal costs (including a weak wishy washy lawyer chosen by the council) for the privilege of locking them into their system, throwing away they key and effectively saying to us *** you, you scum, we own your relative. It's no wonder councils are going bankrupt when their corporate bullying pride goes unchallenged. We really felt at the start that the council and the care home would welcome us as a free resource, but that would expose them to the risk of being found out for what they really are.

If you want your face to fit their system, you need two faces, like theirs.

Ultimately the case was not published so no one can see the muck that was thrown, and we cannot name names nor go to the press because of a court order. We feel soiled, abused and embittered. How much worse for our relative.

If you're experience is anything like ours and the unsuccessful appellant, I would advise caution making an appeal unless you want to bleed money or create undue stress for yourself. Try another tack. Speak to those who control the purse strings.

Rant over, and good luck to you and anyone else in the same sinking ship.

[Drjm in reply to LaVerite]

Hi LaVerite,

Thank you for your reply. I’m so sorry to hear about your experience which sounds absolutely horrific.

I totally agree that it is such an unequal system with Local Authorities and your loved one having to fund these astronomical legal fees is staggering.

Having to maintain silence on the details must be incredibly frustrating.

Thank you for your good wishes and I wish the same to you. I really wish I could say there is an upside in your experience but that is so clearly not the case and sounds very deeply unfair.

Take care.

[LaVerite in reply to Drjm]

Thank you Drjm - much appreciated and best wishes!

[MontyCat in reply to LaVerite]

This is shocking and so saddening to hear. You have my heartfelt sympathy for what you and your loved one have had to endure at the hands of a system which SHOULD be looking after the most vulnerable, and which yet as you say seems more intent on ensuring that certain "professionals" continue to live privileged lives while our loved ones are left at the mercy of the indiscriminate and badly motivated.

[Hissone]

I have applied myself and that was back in August how long does it take to get a reply

[Drjm in reply to Hissone]

Hi Hissone,

I applied in July last year for Property & Affairs. I got a reply in September saying they would send me a Court Order which I have just received.

I asked for permission to apply for Personal Welfare in September. I got permission in October and I have just heard they have refused my application.

I think you can ask about the progress of your application but I didn’t do this and not sure what the system is,

Hope this helps.

[Housebuster]

I got deputyship for my sons finances etc when he was 14yrs old. When he turned 18years old we had a near miss on one of his surgeries 10years ago, but for the quick thinking of a nurse, and all because the consultant, due to confidentiality, would not discuss anything with me. Shortly after this both my daughter and I applied for health and welfare deputyship as joint and several, with the backing of his GP and family solicitor. Thankfully it was granted by the court. I can only imagine how difficult it is for parents who have been unable to obtain this level of deputyship.

[Drjm in reply to Housebuster]

Hi Housebuster,

Thanks for your reply. Glad to hear you have the deputyship - you certainly needed it from the sound of things!

The confidentiality aspect can really disadvantage people with a learning disability imo. I gather that if I wanted to complain about say hospital treatment of my son he would need to consent to his personal information being released which is impossible for him to do.

I am still mulling over whether to appeal but will have to decide very soon. Every case is different - I know some people who have got personal welfare as a general authority because of the need to make interlinked decisions over time.

My son has been in supported living for some time and generally best interests decisions have worked for him so these are not strong grounds of appeal for me.

Other people get deputyship as a response to a dispute about care but previous answers show that is far from assured.

My son is in college and I am hoping for a final year on his EHCP. If he doesn’t get the extra year that means he will transition into a daycare service this year or it will be next year at the latest.

I would really like to have a say in this as his last transition at 18 went very badly. I am debating whether to use this as grounds for appeal but as no dispute has occurred yet it may be better to wait till we know what provision and support he is being offered.

Does anyone have advice about daycare services and how much input families are given or is there a very limited choice in practice? Does having a Personal Welfare deputyship make a real difference in this situation?

[Hissone in reply to Drjm]

I didn't get dutyship for my son either he has none verbal Autism and severe learning difficulties

[Housebuster]

Yes, our welfare order covers every aspect of his life, right down to what he can eat. Its certainly been helpful when talking to social services re provision. He has been in supported living for sometime, and attends a daycentre Monday to Friday, something SS wants to stop as his supported living should be providing activities. However, their staffing levels will not support this, something they are neglectful to repeat at SS reviews, so thankfully we are able to argue best interest and we must be listened to.Good luck to you and your son, SS provision these days are very hit and miss, and its a fight at every review to keep what we have in place. He has been at his daycentre nearly 18yrs, we did get a say at the outset, but how much say people get now I can't help you with.

[Drjm in reply to Housebuster]

Thank you - that is very helpful to know.

Good luck in retaining your son’s provision - so frustrating that it always has to be such a battle.

[Hissone]

I agree