Great Examples of Why I Hate Science and ... - Cure Parkinson's

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Great Examples of Why I Hate Science and also Hate Dieticians: A Dietician Weighs in on Lectins!

Bolt_Upright profile image
25 Replies

A friend of mine (you know who you are) sent me an article where a registered dietician addresses the "rumors" that lectins are an anti-nutrient, meaning that they can interfere with how well your body absorbs nutrients from food or that they can increase gut permeability and drive autoimmune diseases.

So... below are the 5 bullets from the dietician addressing all of these issues. I find them points maddening, but maybe I am mad. Maybe her advice is fine for a healthy person, but for a person with health issues trying to reshuffle the deck, to me this advice is awful.

After each bullet I am going to note what gets my goat (in bold underline):

- "First off, there’s no conclusive evidence that a lectin-free diet has any health benefits. In fact, many high-lectin foods (such as legumes and whole grains) are rich in important nutrients and can be key for maintaining a balanced diet. Thus, the risk of not eating these foods probably outweighs the risk of consuming them."

Bolt: "No conclusive evidence" means there is evidence. Then she says the risk of not eating lectins "probably" outweighs the risk of eating them. She might as well of just said "I don't know if lectins are bad for your health and I don't know if you would be better off eating lectins or not eating lectins".

- "It’s important to note that lectins are mostly deactivated through cooking. For this reason, you’re very unlikely to eat enough lectins to cause harm."

Bolt: I read this bullet as "Cooking food does not deactivate all lectins so there is a possibility that even after cooking you may still be harmed by the lectins in the food".

- "In fact, boiling legumes in water eliminates almost all lectin activity. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recommends that dried beans should be soaked in water for at least 5 hours and then boiled in fresh water for 30 minutes."

Bolt: I read this as "Not even soaking beans for 5 hours and boiling them deactivates all lectins, and God forbid you eat beans not this thoroughly processed or you will get even more lectins".

- "Some rat studies suggest that lectins may cause damage to the gut lining, putting people at risk for inflammatory bowel conditions. However, the mechanism of how the lectins cause damage is largely unaddressed. Studies also do not provide evidence in humans or determine a safety limit."

Bolt: I read this to say "Rat studies have shown lectins damage the gut lining and put us at risk for inflammatory bowel conditions. We don't know why this is, we only know it happens in rats and we have no idea what amount of lectins is safe for humans to eat.

- "Other animal studies suggest that eating high doses of isolated lectins or raw legume flours can reduce the absorption of other nutrients. However, since we don’t generally eat foods containing lectins when they’re raw, these findings aren’t applicable to humans."

Bolt: So in this bullet she says animal studies show eating raw foods with lectins interfere with the absorption of other nutrients, but then says not to worry because humans don't "generally" eat raw foods containing lectins. This is wrong in so many ways. For one thing, we eat tomatoes raw. They are high in lectins. For another thing, we already established that cooking foods high in lectins does not deactivate all lectins. The studies show lectins to be an anti-nutrient. The fact that human cook most of our food that contains high amounts of lectins does not change the evidence that lectins are an anti-nutrient.

My point is not that people should avoid lectins. I avoid lectins but you do you.

My point is just be careful when you read expert advice. A lot of people giving advice are just giving their best guess and frequently doing so very casually as if they don't really care if they are correct or not. A dietician's job is to regurgitate the middle of the road knowledge they have been taught. They get paid by the hour regardless of the advice they give. They are not trying to throw a deep pass to a receiver being double covered because they are not trying to save their life. I kind of envy healthy dieticians and their bliss, but I don't take their advice.

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Bolt_Upright
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25 Replies
Flipper_B profile image
Flipper_B

I have a basic faith in science as a principle but I agree that many advices from people getting paid by the hour are weak and are often fully covered so whatever bad happens when you follow their advice they can tell you they didn’t mean it this way or you were the exception. Science is definitely better when building cars or bridges but more difficult when it is applied to human beings. Which I in fact am grateful for, life gets more exciting that way.

I trust my own doctor because she had given me very few advices, all so far have been valuable and correct. And she is not negative to my own testing, with different approaches to improve my health.

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toFlipper_B

Very well said Flipper_B. Insightful too. I DO trust science to build bridges and building and machines. In these cases they are working from well established and proven engineering standards that have been developed and tested in binary pass/fail situations for thousands of years.

The care and feeding of the human body is a whole other thing with more variables than anybody can know for sure. When people ask me if a supplement I take is helping, I always have the same answer: "I don't know". I would appreciate it if our health advisors said "I don't know" a lot more often.

Esperanto profile image
Esperanto

The title grabs attention but seems to play primarily on emotions and biases. Especially in today's climate (I won't name names), such wording can undermine the discussion. There are indeed interesting scientific results regarding lectins, particularly concerning the possible relationship between lectins, the herbicide paraquat, and PD. Research, especially in animal models, suggests that the combination of exposure to low doses of paraquat and the consumption of lectins may play a role in the development of Parkinson-like pathology. This mechanism could involve the vagus nerve, which connects the gut and the brain.

It's important to present well-founded arguments and maintain an open dialogue instead of generalizing. While unreliable studies, doctors, and dietitians do exist, there are also remarkable results and passionate professionals. You should have heard Bas Bloem on prime-time Dutch television! It's up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff. Science and nutrition are too complex and require nuance and respect for evidence. Let's focus on that. CP can critically examine this, just as you contribute to the discussion!

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toEsperanto

Thanks Esperanto. I did use a bit of hyperbole, but if I can raise awareness of the vast distance between what is "known" and what advice/conclusions "experts" provide based on "what is known", I think it could help people.

This is something I noticed back in my 20s listening to local and national news. A study would come out about something, and then our local blow dried TV anchors would draw the most obvious and probably wrong conclusions and pontificate about what lifestyle changes people should make as if they were the all knowing Wizard of Oz.

I think the first time this stuck me was in the 80s when the news said people in Japan have much less heart disease and they also eat seaweed so we should eat seaweed too. My immediate reaction was "people in Japan also speak Japanese. Maybe speaking Japanese is the secret to better heart health and we should all try learning Japanese".

I am also holding a grudge against dieticians for all the lies the food industry peddled starting in the 60s. I understand the dieticians were also somewhat victims of the scam, but it seems most of the official dietary advice is still based on lies from the food pyramid.

I'll shut up now :)

Esperanto profile image
Esperanto in reply toBolt_Upright

Seaweed antioxidants show promise in preventing Parkinson's disease

This Japanese study suggests that Ecklonia cava antioxidants may reduce neuronal damage by AMPK activation and inhibiting intracellular reactive oxygen species production.It is hoped that Ecklonia cava will be an effective ingredient in the prevention of Parkinson's disease.

news-medical.net/news/20240...

Additionally, picking up a new language like Japanese can provide cognitive benefits, which can be a boon for those with PD. Plus, it can enhance your understanding of important insights in Japanese science! 🙂

AGH_1966 profile image
AGH_1966

Here is my dietician/neurologist lesson for the day.

I changed my diet to vegan, low gluten, low protein, and that allowed my CD/LD to be effective to the extent I can play 5-a-side to a reasonable standard whereas previously I needed help feeding myself and drank out of a baby’s beaker. My Neurologist etc had signed me off as having no hope – the tawt even smirked when I suggested diet could be an issue. The council had begun fitting my house with mobility aids. So I was naturally excited I had regained my life and told my NHS dietitian neighbour when she came to collect a parcel delivery I had taken in for her. We had a chat and I told my little story. Her response was ‘Oh noooo no no no no no, that's not healthy - I wouldn’t let you do that’ etc etc. Scary. I would be in care by now if she had been put in charge of my diet. So when it comes to challenging ‘professionals’ I am all in with you Bolt.

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toAGH_1966

Thank you for sharing your personal story and good job you for being your own best advocate!

Ashti profile image
Ashti in reply toAGH_1966

Glad to hear! Your approach is also pretty much in-line with the peer-reviewed science.

TenaciousBlue profile image
TenaciousBlue

My simple understanding is that lectins bind to sugar so I eat plenty of peanuts with lectins, but I don't eat any carbs outside of vegetables. My thought process is that the lectins have no sugars to bind to (or very few anyway) and I should be fine? We'll find out with time.

The other thing I should add is that the only foods I ate regularly with lectins prior to developing PD were corn, soy, wheat and potatoes, which are also the most heavily sprayed pesticide crops and they also spike insulin. I'm no expert, but my gut (no pun intended) tells me that the insulin and pesticide effects of these foods are the real problem

Leest2023 profile image
Leest2023

I'm a dietitian. Please don't hate all of us. I agree with you...dietitians quite often feel the need to give opinions on topics way beyond their expertise, as in the case you described. Doctors do it too. There seems to be a need for authors to make bold definitive unproven statements about dietary topics. Most dietary science is based on observational research, so its hard to prove anything and one year something is bad for you and the next year it isn't. The science is out there for everyone to examine and draw there own conclusions. I wouldn't take a dietian's advice on lectins either. We have our areas of expertise and lectins are not one of them.

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toLeest2023

Thank you so much! I confess I was scared about what I was in for when your comment started with "I'm a dietitian" :)

dan1000 profile image
dan1000

This kind of bias, where writers say "X may cause Y", but perhaps should be saying "X may or may not cause Y", is a frequent problem when reading about PD. When I first created ParkiBot.com (which is a completely free, non-commercial AI designed to help people with PD find out more about it), ParkiBot would find (and report) these kinds of assertions. Although this was merely "accurate reporting of what the literature said", I wanted ParkiBot to be better than that.

Thus began a (so-far) year-long effort of training the ParkiBot AI to be much more balanced when reporting things that "may" (or may not) be. ParkiBot is also very careful to draw attention to:

- the differences between petri-dish or animal-model studies, and clinical trials PD patients

- small versus large trials

- randomized, placebo-controlled trials vs open-label trials

- situations where there is contradiction from one study to another (ParkiBot draws this out, rather than trying to average it away)

- work in progress

As a PwP myself (9 years in), I needed a better knowledge-tool. ParkiBot is still improving today, because the job is not yet done. If you'd like to check-out ParkiBot's centrist approach to reporting on what's actually in the literature, please give it a try. And if you can think.of any ways in which it needs to be improved, please let me know.

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply todan1000

That is amazing Dan! I love the way you are thinking. Thanks for doing all this heavy lifting. I will make bouncing things off of ParkiBot part of my regular investigative process.

Ghmac profile image
Ghmac in reply todan1000

Thanks for ParkiBot.com - I use it often!

Grammy80 profile image
Grammy80 in reply todan1000

Dan~! Parkibot is incredible...thank you so much. I've used it more than once today! It is awesome!💞

blackbear701 profile image
blackbear701 in reply todan1000

I use it often! Thank you.

Ashti profile image
Ashti

The slow systematic march of self-correcting science is the best we’ve got. Lots of work to keep on top of it all. That is why my go-to for careful evaluation of the quality and findings of peer-reviewed nutrition science is NutritionFacts.org. We would benefit from a systematic review of the scientific literature related to Parkinson’s - Parkinson’s Facts.org. Lots of conflicting persuasive opinions out there, but what the bulk of the well-done science points to is still our best bet.

Rebtar profile image
Rebtar

At one time I looked at reducing lectins in my diet. But there was no correlation between countries with high levels of lectins in their diets and autoimmunity, from what I could find. I lived in Central America for a few years where beans are a staple of the diet. Meaning, eaten with most meals.

Maybe its the cooking method (always cooked in a big pot with a whole head of garlic -- local wisdom says the garlic prevents you from getting gas). Reboiled daily rather than being kept in the fridge.

Diamonds3 profile image
Diamonds3

Dr. Steven Gundry wrote a detailed book about how lectins effect our guts. Includes results of many of his patients who became lectin free. Good read

Ashti profile image
Ashti in reply toDiamonds3

I looked into this but unfortunately the research he cites does not hold up.

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toAshti

Do you have any details on why Dr. Gundry's position on lectins is wrong?

Are you saying Dr. Gundry cites research that does not support the positions he takes?

I use Dr. Gundry as a primary source on identifying foods with lectins, but my avoidance of lectins started with Dr. Paul Mason: youtu.be/mjQZCCiV6iA?si=-p8...

Ashti profile image
Ashti in reply toBolt_Upright

Here are two addressing Gundry’s book directly:

nutritionstudies.org/the-pl...

nutritionfacts.org/video/Dr...

Both TC Campbell and Greger work hard to help people eat a healthy diet (one supported by peer-reviewed science).

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toAshti

Thank you for the links. I read through the article but did not watch the video (sorry, have a full day planned).

I need to point out that the point of my post was not that lectins are bad. My point is that we have "experts" basically saying "I can tell you, with a 55% degree of certainty, that you can navigate safely through the land mines in that field by following this pattern". Except they don't mention the 55% degree of certainty part.

As for Gundry, I think he is a bit pompous and seriously overstates the evidence that supports his theories. I think the same thing about his detractors to a lesser degree. This does not make him wrong. When navigating a field full of land mines, unless somebody can provide a definitive map of the mines, follow your own gut.

In this, as in all things, I may be wrong.

This is an interesting topic Bolt. I wonder if there are different levels of resilience to lectins between individuals. From my point of view, my diet is largely vegan so I rely on pulses to up my protein intake without problems. Note, I changed my diet after my PD diagnosis. Saying that, other family members eat differently as, let's just say, my lentil chilli comes with a health warning!In the defence of beans and pulses, they are a common feature in the Blue Zone countries which I find compelling.

Bolt_Upright profile image
Bolt_Upright in reply toStillstandingstill

I think there are different levels of resilience to lectins between individuals. Something has to explain people that eat beans their whole lives and die healthy.

Blue Zone Diet? I feel bad about sharing this. Maybe this guy is wrong: The secret of ‘Blue Zones’ where people reach 100? Fake data, says academic, University College London researcher is on a mission to debunk shoddy research into the world’s oldest people aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/2...

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