Ketogenic diet for brain health

[TL500]

Please tell me what you think, or know of, or your experience of keto diet for mental health such as schizophrenia,. And for PD too. Thanks

psychologytoday.com/us/blog...

[Buckholt]

probably real value in keto diet, but it’s very difficult to sustain and low carb Mediterranean diet is a more realistic aim for most

[TL500 in reply to Buckholt]

Thanks

[Gallowglass]

I wonder if the ketogenic diet works because it is low carb, or because it avoids processed foods? I am on the forks over knives plant oil-free vegan based eating plan which has very low protein and fat compared to keto. Carbidopa levodopa works better with low protein. So I would not jump into keto with out first consulting an expert.

[TL500 in reply to Gallowglass]

Thanks

[LeharLover62]

hubbies movement disorder specialist recommends it for his patients. We go on and off as it’s hard to maintain. When he’s on it, he seems to think a bit more clearly. There are very few studies on Keto and Pd though.

We’re about to start the extreme version of this for a few weeks…the AIP diet…to see if that gives any additional benefits.

Most Pd meds and supplements bring on psychosis at this point for him (17 years in) so we’re kind of reduced to trying only food and exercise based therapies.

My concerns are that it will push him to eat a lot of animal fats and meats which could affect iron load, and that could be a factor in Pd so we’ll probably try to get fats from plants and seafood as much as possible.

[TL500 in reply to LeharLover62]

Thanks for your reply. Can you share. What food has he tried for keto and how much?

How long was he on it to see benefit?

What is AIP diet?

What supplements caused him psychosis, and how much of each did he take?

And what symptoms of psychosis? I'd like to know this because I'm giving my young loved one who has psychosis ( not PD) supplements too.

Please give me answer to each of the questions. Thanks very much for your help.

[LeharLover62 in reply to TL500]

For keto, we tried bullet proof coffee and a keto milk shake in the mornings or eggs and bacon, then mostly meat and veggies the rest of the day (dark chocolate, almond nut cookies, and berries with whipped cream for desserts). It did seem that his cognition was more clear after a few weeks, but we lost our discipline. We also remained gluten free and kept sugars to a minimum.

AIP is autoimmune protocol….a very strict paleo like diet where you eliminate all dairy, nuts and seeds, grains. Nightshade vegetables, eggs…basically eat meat veggies and some fruits for 30 days then gradually add back in the foods to see if anything triggers you.

My thesis is that at this point he is extremely sensitive to dopamine and any med , supplement or therapy that increases dopamine in regular doses makes him psychotic.

Medications which definitely trigger psychosis or hallucinations, especially in regular doses, he takes micro doses of some: (since 2019)

Prednisone

Nearly All PD meds: (except Apomorphine)

Carbidopa : Levodopa (Rytary, Sinemet)

Macuna pruriens

Neupro patch

Azilect

Amantadine /gocovri

Anti-convulsant: Lamotrigine

—————————————-

Supplements known to trigger psychosis or hallucinations:

High dose Thiamine (HCL)

Mannitol

Cdp choline

Methyl Folate

———————————————

Supplements suspected to trigger psychosis

Vit B complex or drinks with added vit b

Mallitol

Monk fruit sweetener

Turmeric

_____________________________

Supplements we’re uncertain about (withdrawn when hallucination started, handled in smaller doses for several weeks or one tablet a week)

Stevia

Xylitol

Erythritol

Vitamin D

Lithium orotate

Vitamin C

Vinpocetine (tolerated this for months)

Magnesium

Vitamin B12

Red Light Therapy

(Not sure how much he can tolerate)

I’ve seen where some people try high dose Niacin for psychosis, have you read up on this?

[TL500 in reply to LeharLover62]

Thanks. Very much for your thorough information. I gave her b1 too ⅓ to ¼ of sublingual Superior Source. It seemed helped initially, but then maybe that was too high a dose for her, and at the same time I also gave her 1 PS128 so she laughed uncontrollable alot one day, so I got worried and stopped. But also not long before that we were reducing an antipsychotic medication so I don't know which had played on that. I also saw some information about Thiamine interaction with olanzapine so I also don't know if that was the cause too.What do you think? Thanks

[chartist]

I think melatonin works well for both schizophrenia and PD with studies to support those exact purposes :

Schizophrenia :

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

A relevant quote :

' Long-term use (at least six weeks) of melatonin can improve the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. Since antipsychotics can better affect the positive symptoms, the use of melatonin in combination with these drugs may perhaps further improve the patients’ symptoms. '

PD :

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

A relevant study quote :

' Overall, melatonin supplementation for 12 weeks to patients with PD had favorable effects on the UPDRS part I score, PSQI, BDI, BAI, hs-CRP, TAC, GSH, insulin levels, HOMA-IR, total-, LDL-cholesterol, and gene expression of TNF-α, PPAR-γ and LDLR, but did not affect other metabolic profiles. '

Lastly, Melatonin appears to be compatible with a keto diet and may help with keto diet related insomnia as discussed in the following article :

theartofketo.com/can-i-take...

A relevant article quote :

' Melatonin supplements can safely be taken while following a keto diet without disrupting ketosis. Melatonin is a naturally occurring hormone produced by various tissues in the body.'

Art

[TL500 in reply to chartist]

Very informative. Thanks chartist. I will look at the links when have a bit more time and hand function.Could you tell me what you think about ketogenic diet for schizophrenia? I want to give my young person some but not all keto diet because hard to follow and also fear of negative effects like people say heart problems or body will eat into the muscles or something when it can't get carbs or proteins etc., Also eating too much meat cause constipation and cancer, there was a case of death a girl/woman that someone told me they read a while ago,

Thanks in advance chartist.

[chartist in reply to TL500]

I think the keto diet is beneficial for schizophrenia, but I think for schizophrenia it will work better used in conjunction with the supplements that have shown benefit for schizophrenia of which melatonin is one as well as quite a few others. Another advantage of melatonin is it can also help to stave off tardive dyskinesia or to help deal with it, which would be quite useful in schizophrenia.

Art

[TL500 in reply to chartist]

Thanks chartist. I'm just worried that melatonin is also a medication and if don't use it right it can effect sleep or the mental condition. I haven't read it. Also would its side effects including bladder weakness or something like that?

[chartist in reply to TL500]

Yes do a little reading on melatonin, definitely. Once you do, you will better understand how and why it is so beneficial for plants, animals and humans. It is made in multiple areas of the body and the body is full of melatonin receptors. You even get melatonin from the earlier and later sun exposure, but also, unfortunately with age, humans generally spend less time in the sun. Interestingly, people with PD or schizophrenia have lower levels of melatonin than healthy controls.

Unfortunately melatonin levels decline with age also which is like a double whammy for both groups.

Regarding bladder weakness, melatonin, even at very low dosing has shown the ability to improve nocturia in people with PD as discussed here :

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/335...

A relevant study quote :

' In this preliminary open-label study, administration of sustained-release melatonin 2 mg was found to be safe for clinical use and was associated with significant improvements in night-time frequency and nocturnal voided volumes in PD patients.'

Art

[TL500 in reply to chartist]

Thanks very much Art. I'll have a look.

[SAGoodman]

I have been doing Keto for almost a year, will cheat every once in a while. Also do intermittent fasting from dinner to lunch.Main goal was weight loss, which I have lost 50+ lbs. Definitely think fasting has helped mental focus. Still have brain fog once in a while, but definitely worth it.

[TL500 in reply to SAGoodman]

Thanks SA. Could you share what you eat and drink for your keto please?And how long did it take to see good results?

Any negative effects?

You mentioned fasting has helped mental focus, what about keto? Is it only help with losing weight?

And could you please share your opinion what you think keto or some keto for schi to as my question to chartist above please ?

Thanks very much SA.

[SAGoodman in reply to TL500]

TL500, I did start Keto for only weight loss reasons. No breads, added sugar or starches, so meat and veggies are the core meals. I drink coffee tea and water.As for mental focus, since I started keto and intermittent fasting together, I can't tell you which improved focus, but together I have seen positive results!

One added bonus I didn't expect is not needing my cpap for sleep apnea!

IMO, the benefits of keto diet is that it cuts out Processed foods and gets us back to foods that are more farm to table. I should also state the beef and pork I eat are locally raised, not store bought. I do eat eggs from my own chickens, but purchase chicken to eat from my local grocery .

Hope that helps!

[TL500 in reply to SAGoodman]

Thanks. Could you share how you have the keto diet? Like what to eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and how much? Any snack or morning and afternoon teas etc. Thanks

[SAGoodman in reply to TL500]

I don't eat bfast, but usually eat a large salad with beef or chicken for lunch, usually eat beef/ chicken/ pork and a vegetable for dinner. Quantities are unknown, but as my main goal was weight loss I purposely ate less. I have achieved my weight goal and now eat larger portions.Will continue this lifestyle, as I truly believe it's beneficial to me.

[TL500 in reply to SAGoodman]

Thanks. So your weight loss and focus maintained ?

[SAGoodman in reply to TL500]

Yes it has! Going to continue until I have a negative result

[TL500 in reply to SAGoodman]

Ok!

[TL500 in reply to SAGoodman]

What is IMO?

[SAGoodman in reply to TL500]

In my opinion lol

[TL500 in reply to SAGoodman]

Thanks

[Thal]

Worst constipation.

[SAGoodman in reply to Thal]

Thal, I combat constipation by eating a salad during the day.

[MarionP]

A couple of thoughts for you here:

First, it looks like your young one is sensitive to energizing compounds, of which b vitamins are very much of that nature, containing as much sulfur as they do (sulfur is the main element involved in b vitamins). That's probably why most of those b vitamins are triggering, she probably has enough of them if you're feeding her meats or dairy. So her schizophrenia is of the type that may be just simply subject to more energizing activity, just enough to push her over the edge. So pretty much only what she needs and no more of b vitamins, you probably don't even need to supplement unless you know of something in her case that would require it. All of this is an educated guess.

Next: I'm wondering whether it would be the keto diet itself, or the autophagy (body's normal healthy recycling of it's materials) that one can involve with keto diet, because autophagy is basically a recycling activity in the body. If you think that might be the case, then there is a very clever physician out there, Dr. Annette Bosworth, and she is on YouTube as "Dr. Boz." She combines keto diet with an autophagy style schedule, including what appears to be very very rational explanations as to the mechanism and metabolic reasons why this is so much benefit. I think even a young person would not feel at all deprived going to two meals a day and maybe just simply snacks at night, she schedules meals earlier in the day because of one's natural 24-hour blood sugar cycle which is invariant, so she strongly recommends shifting meals forward because, food or not, and independent of sleeping schedule, one's blood sugar tends to be automatically high in the morning, she feels this is through the evolutionary pressure and so she schedules meals to avoid an evening blood sugar rush from food, because, she says, all of the biochemistry involved in a blood sugar rush is very hard on one's metabolic systems in the body in general, so if one can curtail one of those meal triggers, it's very beneficial, especially in the long term... This one gets the benefit of keto plus additional benefit of avoiding or evading eventual glucose insensitivity.

Third, I don't know if you were in a position to find it profitable to monitor long-term developments in stem cell research, because eventually the technology and the stem cell science might work to eventually seed or plant dopamine producing neurons back into your daughter's substanta nigra, in other words helping grow it where it's needed, without running as much risk of implanting or growing dopamine producing cells where it's not (obviously with schizophrenia it's important to have a Goldilocks type balance of one's dopamine, too much and you get your TD and energized psychotic exacerbation or agitation, and some of the body neurology excesses, restless legs or whatever, and with too little dopamine and you go into depression for not having enough dopamine, so you have to watch those antipsychotics to make sure that you're really micro-titrating (dose adjusting) in a tight range, a sensitive individual needs good management of both of these).

Just a couple of ideas, educated guesses and speculation only, slightly educated, thus no guarantees from the management on this one. But you might discuss some of this with your various treating professionals to see if they might find somewhere a rationale to pursue further. Who knows, maybe some of this applies to both of you.

[TL500 in reply to MarionP]

Thanks very much Marion for taking your time to explain to me so thoroughly. I appreciate it.I haven't started her on real keto diet yet. Just been, but not regularly either, adding extra virgin olive oil to her vergies, or giving her avocado, and little bit of coconut oil in her decafe tea, and much less rice now, less sugar too.

I give her B complex, or if not, then individual B3 (Niacinamide), b6, b9(foliate). What do you think of this please?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ej8Mv...(Not working as expected?)

[MarionP in reply to TL500]

Well I'm no expert on the dietary influence of the biochemistry of schizophrenia, just more so on the schizophrenia and psychotic disorders themselves.

I think others here may have better informed ideas about the specific form of b3, the need for b9, and which form of B6 is proper and not, and the downsides of overdoing the supplements, so I would throw it to all of them to try to help out.

[TL500 in reply to MarionP]

Thanks Marion. By "just more so on the schizophrenia and psychotic disorders themselves.", do you mean you know about schizophrenia and psychotic disorders but not about diet for it? So I can ask you about those disorder?

[amykp]

It is hard to study specific effects of diets in PD because it is hard to keep folks compliant long term. It's also hard to have placebo groups. (People know what they're doing!)

The ketogenic diet IS neuroprotective in general, we know that. With no sugar, your mitochondria use ketones in place of glucose as an energy source. Ketones (a breakdown product of fat) are actually more efficient. In addition, sugar is inflammatory, all by itself. metagenicsinstitute.com/blo...

So, on the assumption that (in PD) it is the neuroprotection and reduced inflammation we want, it is the increased fat/low carb part of the keto diet that is helpful.

You can be a vegetarian (or vegan, though imo that is hard) as long as you keep your carbohydrates under about 30g and your fat to about 80% of your calories.

When they talk about watching iron, I think they mean supplements. You DO NOT have to worry about iron in your diet unless maybe you are stuffing your face with beef and pork all day long?

The RDA is 8mg. Beef has only 2mg, the same as spinach. Kidney beans have 8mg. But anyway, remember, keto is high FAT, not high protein. Fat (from any source) has effectively zero. You can stuff your face with fat from anywhere...cream, butter, cheese, olive oil, nuts...

I've been on a keto diet for eight years. No particular problems.

[TL500 in reply to amykp]

Thanks very much for your information. I'm a bit worried, as I heard, that keto diet is dangerous and people can get organs failure or die from it. They say about high fat is cholesterol and can cause heart disease, and low carbs will starve the body so it will eat into your muscles or something.Will too much fat like butter, cheese etc make you fat?

Can you share what has Keto diet help you with? Thanks

[amykp in reply to TL500]

No, fat does not make you fat, unless you are also eating a lot of carbs. I don't know why anyone would say a keto diet is "bad for organs"... what organs? It's good for curing (type 2) diabetes. and diabetes is terrible for organs.

Low carb does kinda starve the body, so it eats into FAT. That's why people tend to lose weight on it. I lost nearly 60 lbs initially. Now I actually have to very careful to eat enough.

Your brain operates differently when you are on a keto diet, in a way that is better for some neurological diseases. It may be better for Parkinson's. It's worked well for me. I was diagnosed in 2015 and I am still in stage 1. (Of course I can't know FOR CERTAIN it was my diet, but I'm not changing it.)

My regular doctor checks my blood frequently, and all my numbers have remained good. Some have improved. Before the diet I had fatty liver--that's gone. I had prediabetes--that's gone too. I also had high trigycerides and those went down. My cholesterol remained the same.

Does that help?

[TL500 in reply to amykp]

Thanks amykp. It helps a lot.Could you tell me, previously you said "as long as can keep carbohydrates under about 30g and your fat to about 80% of your calories" is that all we have to do for keto diet? Because what I watched it sounds harder than that, and even the professionals recommending it talked about keto flu and all that.Thanks

[amykp]

Well, it's not that hard for me, because I like fat--heavy cream in my coffee, bacon, eggs, sour cream, cheese, nuts, green vegetables...

But 30 grams is not very much, and it pretty much means ZERO bread, rice, pasta, beans, potatoes, squash, sweets of any kind (unless sugar free) juice, beer, so many commercial products (EVERYTHING has added sugar). Even green vegetables have carbs, and if you eat a healthy amount of those you will quickly use up your allowance.

It IS hard, when you are over someone's home and they serve homemade lasagna and you cannot have it. Or birthday cake and you cannot have that. (And I mean, not even a bite) Or when you are in a restaurant and the only thing you can order is a plain salad with oil and lemon juice (most commercial dressings are loaded with sugar.)

I miss fruit, more than anything :o(

On the other hand, I see other folks looking on with envy when I have eggs fried in butter and five pieces of bacon plus sausage and brie for dessert. And there are more and more keto products on the grocery shelves: really good ice creams and flour substitutes to bake your own biscuits and breads. (There is commercial keto bread too--I like it a lot. I love peanut butter sandwiches)

BTW, IMO, the "keto flu" is a silly reason not to do it. If you get it at all, it lasts about a week for pete's sake. It's just that you feel draggy while your body switches over from metabolizing glucose to metabolizing ketones. It means you are adapting!

[TL500 in reply to amykp]

Do we have to eat organics or grass fed meat, free range eggs etc.? Isn't it bacon has nitrate or something bad? And are they all smoked? I thought bacon and sausage are processed meat, which we are told to avoid. It's very hard to find.Shouldn't we avoid supermarket Keto products?

Can you give an example of how/what you have for bf, l, and dinner please?

[MarionP in reply to TL500]

Bacon and smoked sausage issue is nitrates... And of course the high sodium. Now about the saturated fats, I guess that's part of the territory of keto diets, or is it?

[TL500 in reply to MarionP]

So do you think try not have bacon and sausage, eventhough, I think, some guru (Dr berg, or Chris Palmer, or someone?) mention it in the keto diet like it's approved?

[amykp]

Ha, well, actually, I try not to gorge on bacon and sausage either, for that reason. But I do eat it. And I actually try to eat humanely raised meat, dairy, and eggs (which are often free range and grass fed--not always organic) just because. But that has nothing to do with keto...that's just me.

Ketosis is only this: keeping carbs low and fat high (and protein moderate). General HEALTH may have something to do organic and whatnot, but that's different.

I think supermarket keto products are often scammy, in that they aren't alway keto. You HAVE to read labels is all. And like any other processed food, I don't rely on it. But again, getting in ketosis only depends on carb/fat balance.

My day looks like this:

I skip breakfast (because I also intermittent fast)

Around noon I have huge cup of coffee, and I add a big spoon of unsweetened cocoa (a couple carbs) a big spoon of MCT oil plus ketone salt (help push you deeper into ketosis) plus a few other supplements (co-q 10/vit D/lion's mane, stuff like that). I add a LOT of heavy cream. Maybe 1/4 cup? Total maybe 3 carbs?

Around 3:00-4:00 I have a snack...often a peanut butter sandwich on 1 carb bread, plus an antioxidant diet drink. Total about 4 carbs.

Dinner all kinds of things:

lemon chicken with artichoke hearts? Saute chicken breast and artichoke hearts in lots of butter and avocado oil, add chicken broth and fresh lemon juice.

Cheeseburgers on the grill with everything except the bun. No catsup either--fresh tomato.

Grilled salmon I marinate in soysauce, dijon mustard, lemon and garlic. Melted butter poured over. Olive oil roasted broccoli side dish.

Keto ice cream for dessert?

I think these dinners probably push me up to the 30g limit. I stuff myself :o)

[TL500 in reply to amykp]

Thanks. I have to take time to analyse this. I'm slow. Might need to ask you more!😊

[amykp]

heh that's fine!