More poo. FMT in mice reverses ageing

[WinnieThePoo]

I know it's mice. But I thought Art would be interested. And it is quite interesting. Especially if you are Winnie the Poo

inverse.com/science/gut-aging

[kind2animals]

I saw another article about this study. I think this line of research has the potential to impact Parkinson’s treatment in very powerful an positive ways. Unfortunately it doesn’t get the attention it deserves because many of the discussions involve poo and the microbiology of the digestive tract. I would personally happily self-treat with fecal material infusion of my digestive tract. In fact I intend to do exactly that.

[Bolt_Upright in reply to kind2animals]

I'm attempting to use the SCD to normalize my microbiome. The Specific Carbohydrate Diet and Diet Modification as Induction Therapy for Pediatric Crohn’s Disease: A Randomized Diet Controlled Trial - 2020 ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

breakingtheviciouscycle.inf...

I'd happily toss down some crapsules too if I had any.

[WinnieThePoo in reply to Bolt_Upright]

I may investigate FMT more seriously in 2022. It would be helpful to have some unambiguous human trial results for guidance. Diet/probiotic approaches have not shown a clear outcome yet. What we need our dedicated parkinsons poo specialists who can identify the right transplant donor material .

Meantime there is good rodent evidence, and less-good but available human evidence that photobiomodulation improves gut microbiome

(says the man with a therapad on his belly as he types this😀)

[Bolt_Upright in reply to WinnieThePoo]

I did a poor job with my pitch of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet. What that report says, from a study of 18 young people with Crohn's, is the the SCD by itself can normalize he microbiome IF the person still has the needed variety of flora.

So maybe SCD alone is not enough, but I do think if doing FMT I would want to have also follow the SCD. I know my poop is a lot better since I switched over to SCD.

[WinnieThePoo in reply to Bolt_Upright]

I wonder how many of the screened, healthy FMT donors follow that diet

[Bolt_Upright in reply to WinnieThePoo]

Therapad! Something else to Google!

[WinnieThePoo in reply to Bolt_Upright]

wellred.com.au/therapadabout

[Zella23 in reply to WinnieThePoo]

I m going to buy one for the use of both of us and upgrade to coronet when we return from Gods Country (France) next week. Bucket hat still working but thought it might be good for an upgrade! Husband been using it for a year now. I ve been researching more about prebiotics and using more foods that promote it in the gut, well hopefully does.

Being back in France enjoying all the bread and carbs and coming away from his normal healthy diet has been evidence to me that it’s definitely needed to keep away the dreaded constipation and promote a healthy gut.

[Smokeypurple in reply to kind2animals]

I agree its very exciting BUT there is reason for caution... I went to a super brainy lecture about 3 years ago where a panel of experts discussed this. Much was over my head but one of them talked about an experiment where the fecal donor was obese and then the recipient became inexplicably equally obese. They urged people to wait as so much is unknown about unintended consequences. The counter story was a man with c diff who cured himself with his mate's poo... He was desperate - and it worked!

[chartist]

Mr. Poo,

It's about time that those lab mice caught a break, albeit short lived!

Very exciting news for a gut nut such as myself! I'll have to have another scoop of pistachios to celebrate!

Art

[kind2animals]

I was a pretty strict adherent to the specific carbohydrate diet twenty years ago. I used Elaine Gottshalk’s book as my guide. I was attempting to treat what I believed was a case of intestinal dysbiosis. I lived on a diet composed mainly of eggs, meat, yogurt and vegetables like cauliflower, broccoli. I avoided grains, simple starches and all but the lowest glycemic fruits (blueberries were a favorite). I ate like that for roughly 10 years. I can’t say that it helped anything, but my cholesterol number did rise to almost 300, due to my preference for my own homemade full-fat goat milk yogurt and cheese. I was told that my cholesterol situation was mitigated by my excellent HDL/LDL ratio. Then, one of the only good doctors I’ve ever had, a gastroenterologist, prescribed cholestyramine for addressing my cholesterol and reducing the amount of acid in my digestive track. It worked like a miracle for about a year. I enjoyed one of the best periods of health in my adult life. This came to an abrupt end when I was in stricken with Lyme disease, which is epidemic in this area and also diagnosed with periodontitis. Between the Lyme and a number of dental procedures I consumed a lot of antibiotics and it has all been a downhill run since then. People who know me say I was never well again after the Lyme. It is hard for me to tell which was worse, the disease itself or the antibiotics that were used to treat them. I first began to show obvious symptoms of Parkinson’s around that time, but in retrospect I know that less obvious symptoms were making themselves known five years before that, including a reduction in fine motor control in my right hand, decline in olfactory capability, poor sleep, and possibly a decade of mild depression. To get back to the question of poo, poor digestion, seems to have preceded all of this. Yet my history would be incomplete without mention that I have suffered from anxiety since my earliest days, had a diet heavy with sugar and simple starches from childhood right on to my early thirties, and as a result of this ended up with a mouth full of amalgams from age 10 on.

[Hidden in reply to kind2animals]

Perhaps this is fate; just saw this a few days ago -- MD in Seattle with special interest in Lyme and associated infections (he has an article about it): ralphgolanmd.com/lymediseas...

Just wanted to mention this about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) in case anyone else is considering it (because it looks like you've added glycemic and carb restrictions as one would find in a low carb diet)...

1. On page 68 of Elaine Gottschall's book (paperback):

"If you see no improvement after a one month trial, the diet will probably not work for you."

2. The only fruit restriction I see in her book is for fruit processed with sugar. There are some vegetable restrictions, but even some legumes are allowed (like white beans, lentils, peas and lima beans).

[Somic67]

change a microbiota is difficult and take stime. FMT is effective as much as a long fast 6+ days) but doesn't last long if the gut is not fed properly and diet is not changed.I know that the use of alfa-lacto-albumine and butyric acid (or sodio butyrate) with zinc has been used successfully in various diseases. Link in Italian only (by now use translators)

kolfarma.it/

unamedicina.it/

[Robb48]

Been looking into this for some time to try and help my Mum (MSA, rapidly deteriorating, gut issues all her life, much worst now). Going to try and get this for her one way or another. Studies from China are fascinating, and FMT is extremely safe if you're taking from a healthy donor.

journals.lww.com/md-journal...

microbialcellfactories.biom...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/312...

If I remember right there was another study that due to take place for PK on the continent, maybe Netherlands? Could even be taking place now. Hopefully we'll see results soonish..

Got neuro doc to agree to write a letter to Birmingham FMT centre for my Mum, not hopeful they'll agree but worth a try. If not I'll message an FMT place that works privately in the UK and beg a day appointment (they try to get you to pay like £5k for a 10 day course or something insane like that). If not that, I guess I'll try to get agreement to DIY with a sample from my bro's 7yo daughter!!

[WinnieThePoo in reply to Robb48]

I am sure that was tongue-in-cheek but I would avoid the DIY. The Taymar clinic, I think you were referring to are expensive at £6000 - but are the only UK provider I would consider, and have excellent donor screening. They make no claims for PD. And maybe whatever is wrong with us, and caused the problems, will reverse the results in a relatively short time.

It's one thing to shell out £6k on a once-and-forever fix. Less appealing to pay £6k every 6 months for a regular service. I have seen no information on how long the FMT is effective for in PWP. That is the key research I am looking for

[Robb48 in reply to WinnieThePoo]

Not tongue in cheek, I do not believe there is significant risk when samples are taken from a healthy individual - why would there be? If the sample was dangerous, it is likely the donor would express the problem already - you could say sample has been "pre-tested" :). You could argue that PD etc are weaker, so there is some risk, but I do not think it is significant. If you're going to sample from a clinically obese individual then that's something very different. But I know the risks of doing nothing, and they are not acceptable either. Maybe there are clinics abroad that will help though.

Yes Taymar clinic, their price is crazy, they seem to be milking the procedure for all it's worth, and make no mention of whether they can do a day clinic so probably won't, but I will ask if I have to. Their current course is interesting with antibiotics etc to do something of a wipe on the existing microbiome, and then multiple sessions to recolonise. It could be that this would last longer than a single session but who knows, absolutely agree that symptoms could disappear and then come back. PWP like MSA, much less researched, but I think it would be logical to assume some similarities.

Also this is interesting:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[aek222 in reply to Robb48]

Hi Robb48-Unfortunately, the potential harm from FMT is not small-a person who was immunocompromised died after receiving a transplant that contained drug resistant E.coli. Yes the donor should have been screened properly, nevertheless PwP are immunocompromised to varing degrees and thus are at greater risk for adverse events.

As the research continues to accelerate, I am very hopeful that FMT will become more available for a number of different disorders.

statnews.com/2019/10/30/det...

[Robb48 in reply to aek222]

Yes, am familiar with that, an unfortunate situation and a one off. The person who died had a rare form of blood cancer and was 73. There is risk in everything, but I still say the risk for FMT is extremely low, the potential upside significant, and we know what happens when you do nothing.

[Robb48 in reply to WinnieThePoo]

Hang on, you mentioned "only UK provider you would consider" - do you know of others?! I looked but couldnt find. The Birmingham centre I mentioned is NHS and focused on antibiotic resistant gut overgrowths if I remember right. I contacted them before and they said they couldnt help with electives, my Mums doctor would have to champion it and before they would consider.