Oops. Hydroxychloroquine kills, not helps - Cure Parkinson's
Oops. Hydroxychloroquine kills, not helps
"There were more deaths among those given hydroxychloroquine versus standard care, researchers reported."
Hypothesis: Hydroxychloroquine was mainly given to the sicker ones.
If this hypothesis is correct, surely the reported results are to be expected?
From the PDF linked to in the article:
"... hydroxychloroquine, with or without azithromycin, was more likely to be prescribed to patients with more severe disease, as assessed by baseline ventilatory status and metabolic and hematologic parameters. Thus, as expected, increased mortality was observed in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine, both with and without azithromycin. Nevertheless, the increased risk of overall mortality in the hydroxychloroquine-only group persisted after adjusting for the propensity of being treated with the drug."
So that hypothesis would seem to be incorrect, assuming no error in their statistical analysis.
Well, there was some error, it was an unbalanced trial thus not conclusive, but posted aimed at stimulating discussion
"Nevertheless, the increased risk of overall mortality in the hydroxychloroquine-only group persisted after adjusting for the propensity of being treated with the drug."
THE critical finding.
Sharon
Careful, we're not supposed to notice, someone will call you something or point out how it's not that simple. Not supposed to be so clear. Has to be their idea. Not pc to notice. 
Right on Marion.
No one, but no one, should ever, ever, read the early 2020 Chinese clinical trials on the ineffectiveness of HCQ in ameliorating the infection in severely infected patients. They found it to be worthless in preventing patients from entering the ICU ward or dying . Obviously, they didn't know what they were talking about. They just invented the thing in such a way that all existent drugs are going to be worthless, or almost so, in treating it successfully. What would they know?
"They just invented the thing in such a way that all existent drugs are going to be worthless, or almost so, in treating it successfully." Did I just say that? I'm so sorry.
46,000+ US deaths and climbing; 183,000+ world wide and climbing.
Sharon
A change in the spike protein, for what ever reason whether engineered to do so or not, may easily lead to mutations, which could easily lead to multiple infection waves.
Rendering re-purposed drugs like HCQ useless.
Sharon
The spike protein is extremely important in dealing with any coronavirus infection because it is the binder, the "glue", for the virus to invade the human cell and stick to the receptor...and propagate.
If we can't prevent this attachment, we are in very deep trouble, very deep. If the spike protein somehow changes it's genome, and it could do so, we are in trouble.
Will we develop vaccine to prevent this? Who knows.
Sharon
today I understand you better than usual and thank you, but perhaps I was more serene and less worried when I struggled to understand the technical terms. All viruses change but we don't have vaccines for that, see the flu.
I wouldn't understand at all if not for the technical terms, all others create really frustrating vagueness and obfuscation with the restatements/metaphors, which always involve errors and you can't run something down if you don't have the technicals...and even worse, because of that you can't apply it or extend your information and integrate with what you do know and record any of it without the exact details, so I vigorously oppose any suggestion to go with the fluff, I think it is a waste and disservice if one knows something but dumbs it down...so you will always see me riposte. It's what dictionaries are for; one can always deconstruct careful accurate terminology with a little effort, whereas the reverse is never true. Besides, if you happen to be retired or not working full time, what is better to put your time into?
Listen to the experts, not wild guesses. Improve your immune system through nutritional support instead of depending solely on a vaccine that may or may not work. Though I know you already know that, Gio. I'm always impressed that you manage to communicate so well with your foreign language.
"It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus. As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted7,11. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used19. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone20...
Malayan pangolins (Manis javanica) illegally imported into Guangdong province contain coronaviruses similar to SARS-CoV-221. Although the RaTG13 bat virus remains the closest to SARS-CoV-2 across the genome1, some pangolin coronaviruses exhibit strong similarity to SARS-CoV-2 in the RBD, including all six key RBD residues21 (Fig. 1). This clearly shows that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein optimized for binding to human-like ACE2 is the result of natural selection...
Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here. However, since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible."
nature.com/articles/s41591-...
It doesn't have to have had genetic manipulation to have come from a lab. It just has had to be somewhere sterile and ideally handled where it could replicate a few or more times without charged ions around to punch a few holes or twists into it's nucleic acid strand...which is exactly, EXACTLY, what labs do whilst bringing up a sample sufficient for quantities to be practically large enough for all expected or anticipated study uses, like making a "mother" for a brand of wine, yogurt, bread, etc. To do anything, first you need a big enough supply stock, and you derive that by growing it in ideal replication circumstances and then grow through cycles, so your feedstock is large and identical.
Someone writing that article added a clever little rhetorical hypothetical step about changing or weaponizing so as to be able to then say the virus couldn't come from a lab, a common rhetoric trick, to which I can easily say "of course, it could (and now is, in this social episode worldwide now) under study, but not modified yet. No one said it was a weapon...yet (as a weapon now it's actually pretty weak). Actually, I'd suggest that as a weapon, the current version plaguing us now in the wild would be rather a big failure, but it does tell strategists valuable strategic info where the systemic weak points are in countries and systems responding to what an attack would represent, so it's actually been a useful "dress rehearsal" for those bioweapons strategists and the political masters. Actually such players on both sides of the Pacific, and the communist northern aspirants and death merchants also, are paying very close attention, for defensive and offensive strategic purposes respectively. Anyone not seeing that would needs be ignorant completely of history and current events.
Here's another expert's opinion. Pay special attention from 8:28 to 10:02.
"This is not a standard laboratory strain...There's nothing in there at all that is a signature of laboratory manipulation."
Very interesting. Any nucleic acid that replicates is subject to mutation, as actually you reminded us as well when you mentioned that catch your scientist friend caught on the "natural or lab influenced" nature of this coronovirus...so I guess trouble is certainly possible.
In addition, it's statistically not significant enough.
"A total of 368 patients were evaluated (HC, n=97; HC+AZ, n=113; no HC, n=158). Rates of death in the HC, HC+AZ, and no HC groups were 27.8%, 22.1%, 11.4%, respectively. Rates of ventilation in the HC, HC+AZ, and no HC groups were 13.3%, 6.9%, 14.1%, respectively.
Too many unknown variables to draw any definite conclusion from this observation. You can even twist this and say the no HC group required the highest rate (or more than twice of HC+AZ) of ventilation.
It's like saying a group of people (with varying level of sickness) wearing different swimsuits drowned at slightly different rates during a tsunami.
Given the meager stats, I agree with their verbiage in the conclusion, especially without Zinc and too late -
"In this study, we found no evidence that use of hydroxychloroquine, either with or without azithromycin, reduced the risk of mechanical ventilation in patients hospitalized with Covid-19."
One must assume "standard care" did not differ among the two groups, who had to be equal to each other in all significant respects, with no cross in mingling in treatment across the grouos or differentiation using other groups to create proper controls. So not conclusive, but suggestive.
To caution against jumping into a clear pool, or pressuring or promising benefit to desperate\trusting\suffering\vulnerable souls without checking\knowing whether the clear pool is water or acid or bleach, and room temperature vs. 1 degree C or 98 degree C.
If we'd have had actual comparison groups, people with just hydroxychloroquine, people with hydroxychloroquine plus azith, people with hcq and azith and zinc, people with hcq with zinc, people with azith alone, people with azith plus zinc, people with zinc alone (albeit fixed doses), stratified by some criteria such as degree of multiple organ involvement, people with lung involvement, people with no lung involvement, there are established formulae for minimum group sizes associated with with and between-group probabilities of type 1 and type 2 error associated with 90%, 95%, 99% likelihood that whatever difference between the groups is not random. In fact, one can state what those sample group sizes would have to be, so all you need is enough patients, say in a metro with a couple thousand patients as they come in the door like NY and several others have had, or enough patients across multiple hospitals in a city, state, region, or multiple regions, over a brief time or even over a longer one (because it doesn't really need to be at the same time) and one could do a medium quality (i.e., "good enough") just there with enrolling the next patient in line to qualify for one of the groups or none of the groups, until you had the groups filled. To an experimenter this is a piece of cake, old stuff. Too bad, would have carried actual evidentiary weight and take relatively little time to collect the people, and nearly no time to plug it into your computer which for 45 years has been able to do the calculations with results in seconds. I think it could have been quite easily done. In fact you'd have enough right there to also calculate pretty good numbers on gender, age, and a swab at admission gives you DNA you can later test for against ACE-2 variation in the lungs and heart etc. Maybe enough for other things, maybe anyway.
This is so sad it borders on criminal to have suggested it to desperate people!
These results, of course, tell us nothing about the value of using Dr. Zelenko's 5-day HCQ+AZIT+zinc regimen, as soon as COVID-19 is first diagnosed in the clinic.
Exactly.
No mention of zinc again and no dosage listed in the "study" either, which probably means much higher than 200mg used by Dr. Zelenko. What's wrong with these MDs and PhDs... uh!
medrxiv.org/content/10.1101...
This may be of interest - a petition for clinical trials of HCQ+zinc!
How to Stop the Virus And the Quarantines Now:
It's not conclusive against hcq. It is supportive of the idea proper clinical trials are needed and it is dangerous to start promoting unproven therapies even, or maybe especially, in an emergency like this one.
As for Zelenko, the reek of Grimsby harbour is overwhelming. No data, no review, just a tweet to the tantrum toddler, the kindest thing you could say about that claim is that it is unproven. Given it is hyped by the big tweeter himself, the medical community can't be unaware of the claims and don't appear to be rushing to test them.
Well, the NIH has now recommended against using hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin in combination, but not against using hydroxychloroquine by itself.
NIH Panel Recommends Against Using Hydroxychloroquine And Azithromycin, Drug Combination Touted By Trump:
forbes.com/sites/rachelsand...
Well, so now he will shift back and say that the oil glut and the drop in demand for oil is such a good thing because it will eliminate the entire argument for the global warming and climate change hoax that doesn't exist in the first place, so forget all this coronavirus stuff, consider that it was probably intentional that he engineered this drop in oil demand, which means a drop in burning fossil fuels and the burning's creating more carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide to destroy the atmosphere, thus we really should thank him for saving the Earth from that Hoax perpetrated by all the lefties.
Hydroxychloroquine is an ionophore for ZINC - ie it has the effect of concentrating zinc, in the cells and it is the ZINC which has the effect on the virus. This property of hydroxychloroquine is known - there are studies back to 2014 which show this in connection with its effects on malaria. Some of the trials have used hydroxychloroquine, zinc and azithromycin (to deal with bacterial infections which follow on from CV infection). Those seem to have worked, whereas the trials on hydroxychloroquine alone, or hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, don't.
We need more data!
Generally, zinc seems to be protective. There are studies which show the effects of zinc on coronaviruses.
This you tube video may be interesting as a summary of what may help. . youtube.com/watch?v=NM2A2xN...
Fantastic and informative video, thanks for posting. I'm taking Vit C, Vit D and zinc (although not such a high dose). I have been using quercetin for histamine issues for a couple of years and had heard about it being a zinc ionophore when everyone started talking about hydroxychloroquine and shortages (so have increased my dose slightly). I also use a liver support/detox formula (the same make as the NAC shown in the film) which uses (from their website) 'alpha ketoglutaric acid as a replacement for n-acetyl cysteine (NAC), which may have side effects in a subset of individuals' so hopefully am getting the same benefit. I also sleep (a lot!). Dr Seheult's hygiene routine certainly made me think of extra ways that I can reduce my risk (which NHS have decreed is higher than some). Thanks again and best wishes
no zinc was involved in this trial. The purpose of the plaquenil is to get zinc into cells where it interferes with reproduction of the virus.
May have been a way to ensure "proper
" results. ???
I’m with you. I smell politics.
Really?
This wasn't a trial but an observational report based on a review, after the event, of treatment differences. Nobody chose to include or not include zinc - they looked at what had already happened.
But you find a conspiracy theory, because it doesn't match the results of a lone doctor, who has a fair bit of controversy surrounding his attention seeking behaviour, and absolutely nothing, repeat nothing, in the way of published clinical data.
recordonline.com/news/20200...
He stopped testing because he had so many positive results he preferred to make his own clinical diagnosis - so how many of his "saves" were not infected in the first place?
"They (kiryas-joel leaders) noted that Kiryas Joel’s schools, synagogues and other gathering places have been closed since last Wednesday and said increased social distancing had kept the infection rate in the village comparable to that of the rest of Orange County. They estimated that 90 percent of their residents are healthy - not sick, as Zelenko had claimed - but provided no numbers to support that conclusion.
Orange County had 539 confirmed coronavirus cases as of Tuesday. How many of those patients are from Kiryas Joel is unknown because county officials say federal privacy rules bar them from disclosing patients’ hometowns, even though other counties have done so."
More grist for the mill ...
The Politics of Hydroxychloroquine:
blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeli...
A few good points made in the comments section, the rest are dirty politics.
Bright was incompetent, a total waste if you actually know his former responsibilities, which apparently you don't as usual.
As Director of BARDA, and previously DD for the Influenza and Emerging Infectious Diseases Division in the BARDA,
--- he was responsible for preparing the nation for influenza pandemics and coordinating production, acquisition and delivery of medical counter.. measures during a pandemic response.
Based on his abysmal inability to do his job(s) since coming to BARDA, I grade him out at a "F".
His HCQ story stuff is ridiculous fluff.
Sharon
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