CDC recommendations

[Sunfishjoy]

Please chime in with your knowledge/opinions about how these guidelines apply to CLL patients. Dare I hope to help care for new grandsons???

[cllady01 Former Volunteer]

Do you have link to particular CDC Guidelines you are interested in discussing--and what in that link is your particular question about?

[Sunfishjoy in reply to cllady01]

The cdc just today green lighted vaccinated adults to visit others in small group situations. Check out the many news reports about it.

[cllady01 Former Volunteer in reply to Sunfishjoy]

I haven't seen the news you are speaking of. The generalization of all vaccinated does not compute with the lack of knowledge being disseminated in regard to what is being said about the unknown factors of immunity after vaccination and when the level of immunity that will keep one safe can be assured. There is also the statements that have been disseminated in regard to carriers of Covid-19 who can possibly carry the vaccine and/or mutations without themselves getting ill.

Just from your statement, I would hope you are discerning that from all our information in regard to CLL we are not of the "average adult population" in regard to our immunity. It is also in the news all over the place that we as a species are not home free from Covid yet as there are mutations already that can't be said to be covered by the vaccines we have---there is hope, but all is too new and experience is too short for definitive statements.

We are all different in our diagnoses with CLL and no one is adequately informed as a patient to know the bottom line of susceptibility.

My thought is that I will mask and will have some small gatherings of friends outside, but not inside. The many who are suggested to be the most of risk are only now being told they can now get vaccinated---heart/lung/diabetes/cancer patients are the only ones referred to as high risk in most of the statements. We each know where we fit in those boxes.

[Rogerinhorn2015 in reply to cllady01]

I think we all know what boxes we fit. Some positivity would be more comforting than constant negativity. A softer approach may get the point across plus each individual should be guided by their cll medical professional. Stay well and happy.

[SofiaDeo in reply to Sunfishjoy]

I think it was small groups of 6 or less, I (partially) saw the CDC news report. Here's the website:

cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc...

[Sunfishjoy in reply to SofiaDeo]

Yes. You’re right. Thanks for the link.

[cllady01 Former Volunteer in reply to Sunfishjoy]

Sunfishjoy--this link gives one Drs. answers the idea of grandkids and grandparents---in relation to vaccinations and the allotted time waiting of 2 weeks at least. Looks promising for your getting to have that most valuable time.

aamc.org/news-insights/6-my...

[cllady01 Former Volunteer in reply to Sunfishjoy]

The stipulation is IF all adults have been vaccinated with both or the 1 shot J&J and have

waited the allotted 2 weeks beyond the 2nd vaccination. So, a bit more than a free-for-all of forgetting all we have learned.

I will still be more cautious than most--it is my nature and until I see evidence for there not being another spread.

[Eagles1 in reply to cllady01]

I think if all parties are vaccinated, it greatly reduces of chances of severe COVID. It gives us some more flexibility, but still requires caution. Our kids and grandkids live 6-7 hours away. We're not planning on driving to see them, but may meet them half way. We're also having another vaccinated couple come to house for dinner in a few weeks.

[DanNordholm in reply to Sunfishjoy]

The mRNA "vaccines" (they're not really vaccines but rather a form of gene therapy hence the quote marks) are non-sterilizing so their effectiveness is less than the traditional vaccine.

What we do know is that if you have no symptoms, then you either don't have the virus or you are asymptomatic which Fauci, the WHO, and CDC said (prior to the politicization of the pandemic) is not a driver of outbreaks. You have to deterine if you are symptomatic and if you are then isolation from others is the best route to go. If you can't isolate then don't think a mask will stop your spread.

Since we now know that transmission is airborne (unless someone is close enough for you to breathe in or ingest infected droplets), our challenge now is that airborne virons can remain aloft in still air (such as in a poorly ventilated spaces) for literally days.

We've known forever that masks as well as N95 respirators don't have any efficacy against airborne virons so you have to decide whether you are symptomatic and therefore, would be able to infect someone else mask or no mask, vaccine or no vaccine. Certainly if you have symptoms don't pretend that the mask will protect others. IT DOES NOT so stay home and away from the rest of us.

The reality is that we have now passed from the pandemic stage to endemic. As such, we have to accept that this coronavirus, just like all others before it, is with us forever. As such, we should take precautions such as taking lots of Vitamin D and protect against exposing ourselves and or others to symptomatic spread (just as we would with any other cold or flu virus.)

By the way, if you want to really bone up on masks and PPE, this Daniel Horowitz interview with certified industrial hygienist, Stephen Petty, is really enlightening given how little we hear from the actual experts in the field of industrial hygiene:

podcruncher.co/play/4zn3

At one point, Petty provides a potential solution to dealing with airborne viruses in your home using a special filter on your furnace. That was news to me.

[Justasheet1 in reply to DanNordholm]

Dan,

I just listened to the whole interview with Stephen Petty. Very interesting.

Jeff

[DanNordholm in reply to Justasheet1]

Jeff, what I've found interesting, if not a bit dismaying, is that people are not hearing from the certified industrial hygienists. I've read a bunch of stuff from Megan Mansell as well as others who are recognized experts in PPE and this interview, like others I've heard before, further solidifies the reality that that the medical community seems to be just as ill-informed on this issue as anyone else.

Experts like Petty and Mansell are the ones who hospitals and corporate organizations call on to make sure they conform to OSHA guidelines. They don't talk to doctors or nurses to find out how to meet the regulatory bar.

As Petty says in this particular interview, the masks that people are wearing are not even considered to be PPE by industrial hygienists. They may CALL them PPE but Petty says they are not.

[SofiaDeo in reply to DanNordholm]

Regarding the "PPE" issue, I agree that true surgical N95 respirators and other medical grade equipment are still in short supply. It's a shame that the previous US government didn't prioritize our medical stockpiles and cut funding starting 2017, as commented on by the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

And it's a shame that invoking the Defense Production Act didn't seem to get the followthrough needed to address this.

Defense spending was increased instead. And now we reap what we have sown, ugh.

[DanNordholm in reply to SofiaDeo]

It's not just a supply issue. It's a training issue for the public.

A. Get a stock of true (not fake) N95 masks (because they don't last that long due to the loss of the electrostatic properties that make it somewhat useful.)

B. Make sure it fully seals. That is, no facial hair, must be properly clamped to the bridge of your nose, no talking to avoid breaking the seal.

C. No touching the mask such that you will cross contaminate other surfaces.

And a bunch of other requirements that industrial hygienists make when working with employees who must wear respirators. OSHA has a slew of requirements.

The fact is, that literally no one in the public will follow these guidelines. And of course, no one wears masks at home in any case and home is where it spreads.

[SofiaDeo in reply to DanNordholm]

Sorry but I have to point out the inaccuracies of your statement. By definition, a "vaccine" is "a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies..." regardless of its' mechanism of action or how it's made. So the mRNA tech products are indeed vaccines. And there are many drivers of this pandemic, some which we are only recently ascertaining. I'm not going to attach numerous links, please Google "drivers of the Covid pandemic". Because of known, asymtomatic transmission, it is prudent for all to take precautions, not just those who show symptoms. And a mask of any sort will help spread viral load, which is desirable. We are still determining to what extent viral load plays in this disease, so better to be safe than sorry. Masking is not a huge inconvenience, or a problem for most of the population. I agree that symptomatic people should avoid others.

It is untrue to say that masks and N95 respirators "don't have any efficacy against airborne virons". By definition a surgical N95 respirator filters at least 95% of particles in the air. That's where they get the name from. Masks provide some protection but aren't tested. Some filter better than others. But Any way you can decrease viron exposure, the better.

The filters/sanitizers available to residential users are not really "new" (I've used air filters/cleaners for decades, recently added AHPCO technology sanitizers) but have been publicized more since Covid hit the scene. HEPA quality filters have been recommended for asthma/allergy sufferers for quite a while, it's just the general public hasn't been interested and news outlets haven't done numerous articles. APHCO sanitizers have been available since 2013.

ijcim.th.org/past_editions/...

[DanNordholm in reply to SofiaDeo]

The pushers of mRNA call it a "vaccine" but that's because if they called it what it is, "gene therapy" people would question it.

mRNA is NOT a vaccine according to medical ethicist, Dr. David Martin. The term "vaccine" is a misnomer intended to obfuscate the reality. See westonaprice.org/podcast/it...

I'm not going to say to not get the jab. My 85 year old mother just did and while she fell quite ill after the second dose, I'm hoping she fully recovers. If and when she does, she will have partial immunity however, she won't have actually gotten Covid but rather, as you say, a stimulation of her immune system response.

Masks.

Masks are not PPE and unless they are N95 or better (and they are fitted properly and seal against the face) they have zero effectiveness. Yes, the N95 can stop some IF WORN PROPERLY, isn't moist, and is fairly new. But that is not what is happening. I have yet to see a sign at the entry to Kroger that says "Only shoppers with properly fitted N95 masks are allowed through this door". Instead, they don't care what you are wearing as long as it's a mask. In other words, Covid and other viruses are floating around their store everywhere and people think their face hanky is protecting them when it most certainly does not.

Corporations and individuals alike have been led to believe that cloth and poly "surgical" masks have usefulness. However, because they don't stop airborne viruses, they are arguably more of a danger to the wearer and the rest of us than if they weren't wearing one at all.

Listen to the interview linked above to cut through to the truth of what masks can and cannot do. It's time we followed the advice of the experts.

[Justasheet1 in reply to DanNordholm]

Dan,

I just ordered the ionization filter that he mentioned. I did some research on it and it was very widely recommended for eliminating mold, bacteria, mildew, as well as viruses. It also reduces dust and other allergens.

It was pricey but I’m pretty handy and can install it in my central a/c by myself saving that expense.

As we slowly open up our home going forward to vaccinated family, this could perhaps be a life saver one day.

Thanks for sharing the info.

Jeff

[DanNordholm in reply to Justasheet1]

I was thinking of doing the same. HEPA doesn't really deal with virus size particles so ionization is probably the best route.

[LeoPa]

Are you going to wear an N95 during such planned visits? I definitely would.

[forestblue]

I am recently diagnosed with CLL, currently W&W, and have generally good numbers on blood tests and genetic testing. In addition, testing showed that I did develop antibodies from the pfizer vaccine. Despite that, my hematologist recommended that I continue with the standard precautions of only seeing others outside, 2 meters apart and masked. Unfortunately that especially includes my sweet grandchildren who are too young for the vaccines. There is still a lot of concern about variants as well as covid transmission even among those who are vaccinated. In addition, I live in Israel where a majority of adults have been vaccinated. But our health ministry does not agree with the CDC guidelines and still recommends caution and masks, even as we are opening up more fully from lockdown.

[wmay13241]

I will ignore the CDC guidance for now - here's why.

COVID-19 vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech appear significantly less effective against the coronavirus variant first found in South Africa, a lab study has suggested.

The percentage of protective antibodies that neutralized the variant - called B.1.351, which has been recorded in 20 US states - was 12.4 fold lower for Moderna's COVID-19 shot than against the original coronavirus, and 10.3 fold lower for Pfizer's.

Source: yahoo.com/news/pfizer-moder...

[SofiaDeo in reply to wmay13241]

I will ignore the CDC guidelines because I don't care to be exposed, period. Not because of a titer number. We really don't know what titer level of antibodies gives maximum Covid protection. What if a 10% response ends up being all we need for maximum benefit? But I don't have grandkids, especially babies who only have immune antibodies passed along from Mom with no ability to make more until they are older.

IMO part of the CDC guidelines are the politics of weighing the "overall state of society" versus pure Covid recommendations. Economic and mental health issues appear to be considered as well as the risks of Covid, and I think these recommendations include some attempt to address those issues. It's all very confusing and hard to know the "right thing" to do.

And to answer sunfishjoy....if it were me, knowing I don't expose myself, I would help with them. If I interacted in public & had a possibility of catching anything (not just Covid) that I could pass along to the babies, I would hold off. I think it depends on your life situation.