Death Certificate inaccuracies: Two of my best... - CLL Support

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Death Certificate inaccuracies

Speedscreed
Speedscreed

Two of my best friends relatives died of heart attacks, in Sept and October. On the death certificate was Corona Virus, and it was not possible to get it changed. This kind of thing completely un-nerves me, why cant they be honest? Also, almost no flu reported in the first two weeks of Jan???? this is well before the benefits of the jab would show. ??

98 Replies
Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator

As I understand it, in the U.K., Covid is recorded on the death certificate for anyone who has registered a positive Covid test in the previous 28 days. It’s sometimes said this is why we have such a high death rate. However, I suppose the rationale is nobody can be sure the Covid virus didn’t cause or exacerbate the issue which led to death.

It’s a contentious issue and popular with the conspiracy theorists who seek to deny the reality of the pandemic.

Sorry to hear of the loss of your best friends in whatever circumstances.

Newdawn

The definition does seem a bit odd. I guess in a lot of cases it's not clear whether Covid19 was a factor. Where someone succumbs to Covid more than 28 days after a positive test, what goes on the death certificate and does that not count as a Covid statistic?

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to bennevisplace

Yes it has to be within 28 days of the positive test for statistical purpose. It’s very controversial and some actually say underestimate the real numbers. Early in the pandemic some people didn’t receive tests at all. I suppose the problem is never quite being able to quantify the damage Covid is inflicting. Long Covid and organ damage is becoming of great concern. I’m not sure if Covid would be cited as the cause of death a year later for example even though it may clearly be the reason as described in this definition;

Deaths are classified by the underlying cause of death (“the disease or injury which initiated the train of morbid events leading directly to death”). The difficulty is knowing whether Covid was the initiator I suppose.

Newdawn

Peggy4
Peggy4 in reply to Newdawn

Agree with you Newdawn. The question is would they have died without the addition of Covid? The same re the numbers of positive tests, would they have been so high if not for the intense testing in some areas. I guess we’ll never know the answer to that one. However, after passing the 100,000 mark today it’s very bad news whatever. Peggy

The ONS mortality total to 15 January is 104,000, where Covid19 is mentioned on the death certificate. Because of reporting time lags, both are underestimates.

annabelle63
annabelle63 in reply to Newdawn

Newdawn I know they put it down anyway and the people that passed never had Covid. It’s like a game

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to annabelle63

I don’t think it’s a game annabelle and whether the way they calculate numbers is right or not, I’ve seen and heard enough personally to respect the dangers inherent in this virus. I don’t need the politicians or the Press to convince me. The greatest risk from this whole pandemic exists in the conspiracy theorists and detractors who put people at risk by denial of a tragedy that’s unfolding around us.

Newdawn

Spiritlove
Spiritlove in reply to Newdawn

I totally agree. Covid is definitely horrible and scary

Milla15
Milla15 in reply to annabelle63

I hope you don't mind me saying that I find your comment highly offensive. Covid is not a game, and certainly doctors certifying these deaths are not treating it as such.

annabelle63
annabelle63 in reply to Milla15

You’re right it is serious and people are dying from this but why put Covid on a death certificate when it’s not. This is happening everywhere. It seems no one is dying from complications from cancer or heart attacks anymore . I am Not making light of Covid!

Anna,

I see your point and understand that you are worried extremely about this virus too. Let the bureaucrats fight out what goes on a piece of paper.

What I care more about is getting all my friends and family vaccinated which so far has been handled poorly in my opinion.

Stay well and safe and we will all get through this together 🙏🏻

Jeff

Milla15
Milla15 in reply to annabelle63

Thank you for your reply Annabelle. Could you tell me why you think it's "happening everywhere"?

The more that Covid-19 was the "cause" of death on the death certificate, the more money that the state gets from the Federal Government, the CDC has a statistic of the deaths of Covid-19 for 2020, and out of all of the deaths for 2020, only approx. 10,000 to 12,000 people died of "just covid-19" and nothing else, the remanding deaths had a combined other 2.4 diseases in the personHow many deaths did you hear about who had the "Flu or Pneumonia" in 2020??? They combined all respiratory issues under the "blanket covid-19", I'm not making fun of Covid-19,but I'm more afraid of catching the stomach bug than Covid-19

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to tonyfrench

Not sure how this theory translates to the U.K. with a universal, socialised health system and certainly no financial reward for having Covid cases!

Newdawn

Agreed.

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to tonyfrench

IMO one should be more wary of Covid, Tonyfrench.

FWIW, the Covid precautions we are taking means that influenza isn't likely to spread. Common colds leading to pneumonias aren't likely to spread. So I am not at all surprised to see a decrease in those. The elderly & compromised people got Covid instead. So they died from that instead of influenza/pneumonia, and because of the nature of Covid transmission & infection, there are many many more deaths that what we expect to see over an influenza/common cold season.

Tinkataz
Tinkataz in reply to tonyfrench

Hi, I’m in the wait and watch phase so still have to work (in a supermarket). Last winter I had a cold/flu type symptoms once a month for five months in a row. This year because of COVID, I firstly, received my flu jag, and secondly, have been wearing a mask and using hand gel, and I’ve not been ill once. The same is true for most of my colleagues. Add to that the fact that ppl are not mixing like they used too, I feel this goes a long way to explaining the lower numbers of flu deaths. There doesn’t seem to be any financial reward for inflating COVID numbers here in the U.K., yet the figures are horrifying. Take care 🙂

EKCekc
EKCekc in reply to tonyfrench

tony, the "stomach bug" is no fun, all right (think: cruise ship virus), but COVID can be far worse! Cases of "true flu" -- actual influenza -- are down this season vs. last year, probably because of the effectiveness of our anti-respiratory virus measures and better compliance with the influenza vaccination campaign.

I so agree they want to put out the vaccines do pharmacy can make their millions and yet not enough to go around. The counts are Wrong

I hope that the counts are wrong because the numbers are staggering. Sadly I think the numbers are close.

ONS figure is 104k.

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to annabelle63

Hi Anabelle,

In the UK, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) reports births and deaths. The statistics up to week 46 for England and Wales in 2020, show deaths to be within 1,000 of the figure for the total deaths for all of 2019, with 6 winter months to go, during which more deaths are being recorded per week due to the coronavirus pandemic's current wave than during the first wave. On that basis, something is responsible for an excess of at least 60,000 deaths in England and Wales last year. The full 2020 statistics should be available within a week or so here: ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation...

Likewise the CDC maintains the statistics for the USA, with this link showing the crude death rate up by 22% up to the end of June 2020 compared to 2019.

cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/mort...

You can also use that site to check for differences in death rates for selected age groups. If you do that, you'll see an increase in the death rates of older people, particularly those over 85. It has already been reported that average life expectancy went down last year in the USA.

Speedscreed,

With respect to your concern about possible wrongful cause of death being recorded on death certificates, I've read arguments on this topic on US medical sites. The guiding principle is that the underlying cause of death should be recorded. In other words, when it comes to someone dying who has recently had a COVID-19 infection, would the death have occurred if the person concerned had not recently had that infection? Heart failure is a common ultimate reason why someone dies, but what the death certificate endeavours to record is why the heart failed. To put this in CLL terms, if someone with CLL dies from heart failure, an infection or from bleeding to death, was heart failure, the fatal infection or bleed the primary reason why they died, or was it anaemia from the CLL causing the heart to fail, the CLL compromised immune system causing the fatal infection, or a low platelet count from CLL causing the fatal bleed? Coroners/medical examiners and doctors given the responsibility for assigning the cause of death appreciate the importance of getting this correct, because this data is used to direct funding towards the best ways of improving community health.

With respect to your very important question about record low UK flu deaths in January, if those low figures continue (and I hope they do), it's entirely consistent with Australia's experience last flu season. We didn't really have one, as I've reported on several times during last year. Flu infections and deaths from the flu dropped way down when Australia went into lock down in late March and stayed flat. It's very hard to transmit the flu (which is less contagious than COVID-19), when people work from home, stop socialising, or wear masks when doing so, wash their hands and avoid touching their eyes, nose and mouth. The reduced flu deaths also accounts for much of the difference between deaths assigned to COVID-19 and the overall increase in deaths last year in countries badly hit by the pandemic. Of specific relevance to your question is how the flu kills. Pneumonia or a heart attack might be why a person eventually died, but that would not have happened if not for the flu infection! See: scientificamerican.com/arti...

Neil

Having recently spent 5 days in a covid ward as a previous heart patient their concern was covid would initiate blood clots and hence another heart attack. The increased my daily intake of 80 mg of aspirin to 320 mg a day and gave me every day a 24 hour slow release blood thinner something like heparin, but another drug. (can 't remember the name) Covid is an obvious contributor to heart attacks in the early days of treatment and pneumonia as well.

Interesting...are you aware that hospitals were given a cash bonus if death was recorded via covid? a figure of £1800.00 was mentioned, but I have no way of verifying that, perhaps you might know Neil?

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to Speedscreed

I've never heard of this in relation to UK hospitals, but I wonder if this is a reinvention of the largely debunked US claim along the same lines? I gather the cost of hospital bed occupancy in the UK is about £400 per day and around four times that for an ICU bed. Having had several hospital admissions for febrile neutropenia, I can personally vouch for the fact that nursing someone where you need to take additional precautions to prevent cross infection does significantly add to both the nursing time taken (and hence additional skilled labour costs), along with the cost covering the dismaying amount of single use PPE, which quickly filled the bin by the door.

Neil

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to AussieNeil

Not debunked and not a conspiracy theory...Medicare pays a 20% premium for Covid patients..that's a fact based on recent Covid legislation. Now do doctors or hospitals massage the truth to get more revenue when the other sources of revenue from procedures have all but dried up? Of course not! Doctors and hospital management are never motivated by greed. Just because you are paranoid doesn"t mean people are not out to get you. Just because it's a conspiracy theory does not mean it's not true. Be careful of US media outlets...they have lost their integrity and objectivity.

Alex830
Alex830 in reply to newyork8

wthr.com/article/news/verif...

I’ve heard the same in Canada .

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to annabelle63

As dandodex said earlier, Let's be more responsible please, this is exactly how rumours and conspiracy theories spread. Please state a reliable source of the information...

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

I can't find a single reference to your claim in an Internet search, but later, I may find a reference to these purported payments from your reply to this post, because it's unlocked. It can then spread virally and more people will believe it without one shred of proof.

Please provide references to such claims, so they can be checked.

Thanks,

Neil

NeilSome very good comments there...

A very clear and helpful explanation of the underlying causes and how deaths are recorded on death certificates.

Qwerty77
Qwerty77 in reply to AussieNeil

More people also received the flu vaccine for the 20/21 winter in the UK (and summer 20 for Australia) - uptake significantly increased.This combined with, as you rightly say, reduced contacts and in Australia’s case no (or very few) imported cases probably explains it.

It may well be that the vaccine developers for flu hit on the right stain of flu for the 20/21 type?

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Qwerty77

Possibly, but the Covid precautions which also prevented influenza & common cold virus transmission is highly likely a major factor.

Johne1
Johne1 in reply to annabelle63

The counts could actually be low. People dying at home that have never been tested, especially old people, could be going unrecorded when COVID was indeed the cause.

Neil makes a good point when we look at the overall death statistics. If not, COVID, then what? If death rates are inexplicably elevated, then something is the cause.

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Johne1

That was the case in Wuhan initially, so I read. Hospitals overwhelmed so many never got to a hospital dying at home.

Maybe in time the wording will change to “a covid related death” as eventually happened with HIV and AIDS

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to fapumpkin

Yes, we really don't have the luxury of time & resources right not to try to ascertain the correct epidemiological classification system!

covid is known to cause blood clots and organ damage. an autopsy can confirm the reason of death. yes, it can be a covid induced heart attack too.

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to LeoPa

Indeed. From COVID-19 and the heart: What have we learned?health.harvard.edu/blog/cov....

"Heart damage is most often caused by heart attacks, which result from the formation of a blood clot in a vulnerable heart artery, blocking delivery of oxygen to the heart muscle. COVID-19-related inflammation raises the risk of this type of heart attack by activating the body’s clotting system and disrupting the blood vessel lining. When inflamed, this lining loses its ability to resist clot formation. These blood clots in the large and small arteries of the heart cut off its supply of oxygen."

I’ve been told that if a hospital reports as coronavirus they are paid a lot more, I think a lot of sketchy things are going on in the hospital management behind the scenes.

Let's be more responsible please, this is exactly how rumours and conspiracy theories spread. Please state a reliable source of the information, rather than a "my mate down the pub told me". Or read the detailed responses above in the thread.

Psmithuk
Psmithuk in reply to dandodex

This needed saying - thank you.Cx

Totally agree with dandodex, and perhaps you could enlighten us with where you heard this piece of “gossip” .Sadly too many people believe stories like this.

I am on the board of our local hospital. I see financial reports at monthly meetings (presently zoom meetings) and we have not received one cent for COVID deaths. Where is this money supposedly coming from?

First and foremost I'm sorry for the loss of your friend's. You've not said if either of them tested positive within 28 days prior to their death. As many have said, and affirmed everyday the statistics are released, it will be included if a positive test result has been given within 28 days. Perhaps this is why the UK death rate is so high, perhaps other countries are tighter on their criteria so their figures don't include cases which would be included here. Its quite possible they would not have perished if (and unknown) they had covid weeks before. Its well documented that it can affect internal organs, and indeed very much the heart. Lots of things can hasten death and its something which lies ahead for us all. It's somewhat academic and it won't be known for years, after academic and mathematical study, just how the pandemic has affected all countries of the world. Such studies will however only have data which is being collected now. That will vary across all countries as some are doubtlessly under reporting cases, deaths and so on. It may look like the UK (as is presently the case) is the poorest performing country. That could just be criteria applied, or it could be a lack of prompt action when required, as seems to have been a theme. It will all come out in the wash, blame will be apportioned and perhaps rightly so. It is a pandemic however and the world had not prepared for it. The UK specifically among all developed and wealthy countries has a poor ratio of beds per capita. I'd contend that's something which needs to change for example.

Qwerty77
Qwerty77 in reply to Belfastbees

I suspect there is a genetic link for susceptibility to COVID - I’m sure this will be discovered in the future.Unfortunately we need all deaths that could possibly be linked to COVID to be reported as this is the only way we will be able to look for trends later.

The UK is good at reporting generally; I believe Germany do not record COVID deaths that aren’t attributed to COVID - there is no standard way of recording around the world.

China did not attribute any deaths to COVID that did not have a chest X-Ray confirming this.......nor do they record any deaths of people who were tested positive yet asymptomatic.

Care Homes in the UK are testing residents regularly - there are cases of patients in their 90’s asymptomatic with COVID.

The biggest issue is no country knew (and China did not advise) that 1/3 of people were asymptomatic carriers......

Belfastbees
Belfastbees in reply to Qwerty77

The pandemic will lead to research in all areas. In statistics, in vaccines, in social media, in anthropology, in medical care, in economics. The list is endless as it has touched all aspects of everyones life on a worldwide scale. I tend to agree that the UK statistical reporting might be the reason our figures look so bad, or even the criteria used to qualify as a covid death. In the midst of a pandemic its impossible to know. I do have a perception we've not done especially well but that its likely not all the governments fault. We may be victims of circumstance, our own culture, resistance to restrictions, reluctance to wear masks or not have parties as much as any governmental hesitancy. Again too many variables to have any certainty at this stage.

In these times, not a very helpful post. Don’t really need anymore conspiracy added to the mix. I say this with the knowledge that the poor people who have died are fairly removed from you.

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to Sepsur

Shall we not be judgmental about others' posts just because you don't agree. We don't have to all agree do we?

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to newyork8

We don't have to agree, but we should be clear when we are speculating, and not state anything as a "fact" without a valid reference. I am taking this as a reminder to try to be clear when I am speculating.....there's a difference between saying "I wonder if X is happening because..." or "I have been told X is happening" versus "X is happening" (and there's no documentation).

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to SofiaDeo

So it is not speculation that Medicare pays a financial premium for Covid patients...it is in the law. Whatever we make of it pro or con it MAY incentivize certain behaviors. Some hospitals are For Profit. Their board members want profit. I doubt if anyone or hospital admitted to it, but I wouldnt expect that kind of incriminating confession. Maybe some day the authorities will look into it.

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to newyork8

Hospitals in the US are reimbursed by Diagnosis Related Group codes, commonly known as DRG codes. When a patient has multiple disease states, and receives multiple treatments, each one will be listed. A Covid positive patient uses a lot more hospital resources than one who is negative, even if that patient is asymptomatic they still need to be sequestered from other patients & a higher level of infection control measures used.

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to SofiaDeo

Indeed...thus paying more for their care seems aporpriate. But does the covid label relate to a DRG code or is the actual services that get paid. How does the extra 20% get activated? By simply a covid diagnosis or cause of death?

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to newyork8

In the US, Medicare and most insurance companies only reimburse by DRG code, regardless of how long a patient is in the hospital & how many line items (a service, drug, dressing, test) are used. I doubt it's an "extra 20% per admission", it's likely a set fee per day for a positive Covid test to cover the costs of sequestering, PPE, etc. although this could easily be 20%. And there are layers of classifications, "Covid ICU" will have a slightly different number than "Covid general floor". Then there likely are DRG's related to events within that DRG; heart attack, bacterial pneumonia, stroke, need for oxygen, etc.

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to SofiaDeo

Thanks for the info!

Speedscreed
Speedscreed in reply to SofiaDeo

I understand what you are saying, but maybe you remember back in the day when smoking could not be proven to be causing lung cancer, and big business kept fighting the conclusions. Where massive profits are concerned, we should be suspicious of everything.

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Speedscreed

Yup, things like that is where the DRG reimbursement system came from. I remember when it was being implemented in US hospitals. Until then, there really wasn't a financial incentive to get patients well as quickly as possible, and a few unethical doctors/hospitals could "milk" the system.(Unfortunately, I can't think of a single profession that doesn't have at least some greedy, unethical people) Reimbursing based on diagnosis, regardless of whether it was a 2 day or 7 day hospital stay, incentivized the few greedy unethical people to stop the long admissions, excessive tests, etc. But with Covid, the costs for PPE & infection control measures are crazy high, so there had to be a mechanism for reimbursing these extra costs. Whether its a flat rate percentage fee based on DRG or a daily "Covid cost" based on each day a Covid patient is hospitalized, I don't know.

We really don't need conspiracy stuff peddled on this site - the world has had enough of it. Thanks to the many that have responded with clear facts.

I have two (only 50 and 57) friends/colleagues who died of COVID and who are not in the statistics, because they died months after dx....just never fully recovered and then rapid deterioration. The stats won't be correct to the nearest digit - but the death number is huge, and probably an underestimate given last spring's lack of testing.

I know many medics who are beyond completely run down (I mean totally run down, spending off-duty crying with both physical and mental exhaustion), but who keep responding to our main hospital's pleading for any qualified person to do even more. They are all heroes.

The Oxford vaccine (I know people involved in the commercial deal) is designed to be cheap and available to the developing world - it is NOT about making huge profits but tackling the biggest global (short term) crisis

No flu - well as other have said, flu can't spread if we are in our homes. So no surprise there.

Let's keep to facts...PLEASE

There is plenty of evidence to prove that you cannot trust the Government Covid death rate figures, especially those coming out of the UK and USA, that said this respiratory disease is deadly for some, but survival rates are still 99.7% so get a perspective everyone, and if you want to know why there is so much confusion and conspiracy theories, well you need look no further than our governments, they are suppressing much information, Why? also check out Dr Kory on the Subject of the drug 'IVERMECTIN' and his evidence to the Senate hearing in the USA, this drug prevents you from getting the Covid virus, and aids in recovery with very low death rate when used, it was also used successfully with SARS, and please don't shoot the messenger with 'Conspiracy crap' these are verifiable facts, wake up folks.

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to Phillipeo

Phillipeo, I can see from your previous post on another thread that you are naturally very hurt and angry regarding the reasons for the death of your wife. I’m so sorry to hear of her passing and the failures which you feel may have contributed to it. However, in relation to your above comments, you may be interested to hear that the U.K. are taking the possibilities of Ivermectin seriously;

In terms of Ivermectin, researchers at Oxford University, U.K. are planning the first, large high-quality trial of a cheap drug that has been credited with dramatically reducing Covid-19 deaths in the developing world.

cityam.com/uk-trial-for-che...

Yes most of the efforts have been centred on developing vaccines, that is true and there have been mistakes. I can’t speak to how the US responded to this. However, the conspiracy theorists who push some wild and frankly weird allegations do nothing to further any cause apart from their own.

People with CLL, as you sadly know, remain amongst the most vulnerable groups of people who could succumb to the deadly effects of this insidious virus. As a result we cannot afford not to take it very seriously. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t question and analyse what we are told but my concern is the people who use these outlandish denial techniques to try and de-rail the recovery programme. I think we need to be suspect about their subversive motives and what they are not telling us!

Newdawn

Phillipeo
Phillipeo in reply to Newdawn

Thanks for your kind thoughts, my wife fought long and hard, but the odds were stacked against her with this disease, after 7 years of research and studying I cannot begin to comprehend the nightmare that CLL is for those that have it, or any Leukaemia for that matter, But there should be far better disclosure of the adverse events linked to some drugs, which is not happening, or at least was not disclosed in my wife's case with Ibrutinib.

Anyway back to the topic, I am by nature a critical thinker, and we should all be, because without that we could easily be deceived, when looking at the overall picture of this Covid both the UK and USA Governments have been very inept in the handling with far too many unnecessary deaths why? especially when there are many highly Qualified specialist speaking up on drugs that will save lives and prevent Covid infections, Dr Kory is part of an Independent body set up in the USA to find repurposed drugs for fighting Covid, his evidence in the Senate hearing is damning on the Medical Profession, and why should he have to shout from the rooftops that their is a safe cheap and readily available drug that prevents Covid infections?

I Know that there has been some news coverage of this story in the UK media this last week, also I have watched the Liverpool Doctor give his very positive evidence on Ivermectin, who is undgoing testing and trials for the World health organisation for the effectiveness of this drug. But the question should be asked, why are governments in the West dragging their feet on adopting such obvious treatments that without doubt save lives when in such an emergency Pandemic?

I am not in any way shape or form a conspiracy theorist, but when solutions like Ivermectin are being prescribed in Australia by GP practises for effective cure of Covid, and when a highly respected Doctor in the USA has to plead in a Senate hearing for it's use to be adopted, then I can fully understand why some do not trust their Government, and why there are so many conspiracies out there.

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to Phillipeo

You make sound points Phillipeo and it’s more from the position of a legitimate questioner rather than a conspiracy theorist. The latter believe the pandemic doesn’t exist, is a political construct and even that it’s some Orwellian exercise to control the populous by insertion of microchip by vaccination! I’ve delved into this murky world for academic interest and it can be quite dark and extreme. Sadly it plays into the hands of the disenfranchised in society and manifests itself with them ranting in supermarkets about having to wear masks.

I share the frustration about the lack and availability of therapeutics for Covid and whilst they’ve been late in coming, we do now have the trials which I sincerely hope lead to greater and cheaper treatments for Covid.

In terms of Ibrutinib, I’ve been open and quite vocal about the side effects I’ve suffered but in the final analysis, I ask myself what the alternative was. With many cancer treatments the cure can be as brutal as the cause but the results can lead to ‘cure’ or in our case, remission.

I’ve read your posts about your dear wife’s battle with CLL and having had pneumonia and sepsis myself, know the agonies you must have gone through. Thankfully the ‘hardcore’ antibiotics saved me and I’m so sorry to hear you feel they were too aggressive for your wife. When a loved one dies, anger can be a natural emotion and we question everything that was done.

What I’m hearing from you is not a sense of conspiracy but very natural and understandable questioning which we never shy away from on here.

Best wishes,

Newdawn

Phillipeo
Phillipeo in reply to Newdawn

Thanks Newdawn, I only want the best for Leukaemia patients, and I will always be interested in the subject of CLL having witnessed my wife's struggles, I wish you good health and the best of luck with your continued struggles.

I think from what I have read GPs in Australia could prescribe not that they are prescribing. Probably because if we have Covid symptoms we phone a State or Territory helpline in order to be tested not make a GP appointment.prwire.com.au/pr/91449/gps-...

J1015
J1015 in reply to Phillipeo

I live in a rural area where Ivermectin is commonly used on animals, I have friends who have taken it for years for overall health purposes and it seems to be working. Some have taken it for COVID and they got better. With that said, COVID seems to be as individualized as CLL so it might have a different reaction on different people but it can’t hurt to test it.

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to Phillipeo

Bravo! using the term conspiracy is designed by some to silence speech. Let's hear it all. And Ivermectin looks promising...and cheap! I know of doctors taking it themselves. Time will tell.

This site has provided invaluable help for numerous people for and by its members with a knowledge base and insight that is astounding. I am saddened to see conspiracy theories peddled without citing ANY reliable sources e.g. hospitals get paid “extra” for Covid deaths. This is factually untrue if you look at the complicated mechanism how hospitals get paid and the way death certificates are filled out. I wonder if it is time for the administrators to shut down this thread. It is truly upsetting.

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to schmitthj007

Hi Schmitthj,

You are quite right and it concerns us when members are becoming distressed by site content and I can assure you we’ve been monitoring content carefully, particularly me who has been a contributor on the thread.

We’ve had abuse reports about certain comments and I’ve also received PM’s asking me to differentiate between the conspiracy theorist/deniers and those who simply seek to legitimately question what we are being told and whether the best is being done for us by our Governments. This is what I’m trying to do but Admin will not allow wild and factually unsubstantiated claims to be made which could have the effect of demoralising members or encourage people to reduce their protection efforts.

Let’s maintain a respectful balance and be mindful of our members who have/are suffering from Covid and those who have lost loved ones. There’s nothing make believe about their awful experience.

Regards,

Newdawn

newyork8
newyork8 in reply to Newdawn

Good comment. We who have CLL are already distressed but I think we should be able to handle all points view. I'd be surprised any member is intentionally trying to "peddle conspiracy" theories. Discussing these views and adding our collective insights helps us. We are not that fragile are we? False claims about covid are rampant including claims from governments at times. Let not our supposed fragility keep us from trying to be open and discern truth through debate. Shuuting down points of view by labeling it conspiracy theories is wrong. Are we not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories? We can debunk them right? We should not silence points of view. Many in society at large are trying to do this. The Earth is round was once a conspiracy theory! We've handled CLL ...we can handle spirited debate. Who is the arbiter of truth in an area where things are changing on a daily basis? Respect for each other is essential. No one has a higher moral authority then anyone else on a forum like this. Of course, harmful medical treatment opinions should be aired out and confronted with known evidence or lack of evidence.

The original poster of this thread raised a valuable point of the accuracy of a death certificate, an issue I can testify to, because I contested my late wife death certificate, and it was upheld by the Coroner who is now investigating the matter and has already furnished me with confirmation verbally at present, that his preliminary findings verified my concerns, so why should this thread be closed down because you don't like some other persons view? Yes there are silly Conspiracy theories, but surely you can rise above that? Anyway at any point if the moderators feel a comment is not appropriate then they can remove it, but shutting down a thread is OTT.

You talk about upsetting, but I have just buried my beautiful dear wife who was just 61, yet I am not upset by others views regardless of how wacky they might seem, stifling debate though is something I do not subscribe to.

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Phillipeo

But phillipeo, if others were as wise as you & others who realize that the conspiracy theories are indeed silly, we wouldn't have problems. The problem with irrational posts are, the people who take them & push it & push it as "truth" even when there's no evidence. And they are very vocal & contagious. Look at the anti-vaxxer movement. Small group, very very vocal, bad science...but they are managing to recruit others.

Phillipeo
Phillipeo in reply to SofiaDeo

Hi Sofia, it's up to the moderators to make the decision of whether or not a post is satisfactory and appropriate to this heath forum, we can do our bit in flagging up a post that we think is not appropriate, but I have been a member for many years though rarely posted, mostly read for info to help my dear departed wife over the years, but I must say I cannot remember seeing any posts over the years that was not appropriate, though I will say I was not always a frequent visitor. The Covid Pandemic has been so badly managed by western governments that it doesn't surprise me that we have all these conspiracy theories, added also to this mix is that many highly qualified Doctors, and scientists, have also broken rank to criticise governments, so it is what it is, we are all different and I think the moderators do a fine job on here to weed out comments that are not fitting.

Before this pandemic, I was as sceptical as anybody about theories, but the last twelve months, along with the agenda for the World Economic Forum currently being aired, lead me to believe that we are being manipulated. Perhaps this suspicion should be aired on a different site, but my real concern was CLL so maybe I got side-tracked. Back on topic..Eating to beat cancer , a Ted talk by Li, was wonderful. Does anybody know if this 2014 podcast has been updated?

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Speedscreed

IDK about "manipulated with bad intent" (although there are definitely a lot of CYA bureaucrats worldwide) so much as people are human, they make mistakes, and (rightly or wrongly) at least some government officials made untrue statements with the intent of averting mass panic. Not to mention, with an unknown like Covid that had rapidly changing recommendations as the knowledge base evolved, it did indeed look like a lot of waffling/ misspeaking for those who don't understand the scientific method. To the average person, rapidly changing scientific recommendations look a lot like "you don't know what you're talking about because you keep changing your recommendations". And I don't think ANY pandemic in history was managed optimally; it's only in retrospect we say "we should have done this or that". And finding correct information in a sea of theories is very difficult.

For those who don't understand my acronym, CYA= Cover Your Butt, which unfortunately many people do everywhere, not just in government.

Philllipo

First of all I am sorry for your loss and I know how this feels having lost a child myself. My post was more than about silly conspiracy theories which in my eyes are not really silly but at times have serious consequences. I certainly agree with you that death certificates can be wrong and certainly are at time’s because the cause of death is not always certain when filling out a death certificate as I can personally attest to. Unless there is an autopsy but even then it remains sometimes unclear. There is a valid discussion about that.

But let me be very clear. If it is implied by the original poster later in the thread that death certificates are falsified for monitory reasons without citing evidence it crosses a line that I cannot let stand. It implies purposeful and unethical behavior and erodes trust for the medical profession which is harmful for any patient physician relationship. No my friend I cannot rise above that since there is real possible harm involved.

Hello Speedscreed

This is sad because it is terrorizing people needlessly.

Due to the negligence in addressing the need for widespread and rapid Covid testing, there are large gaps in our ability to gather correct counts of Covid cases. And obviously this is also true for deaths from Covid.

However, the year over year counts of death from all causes is absolutely higher. And this increase in deaths from all causes is much larger than the reported number of Covid deaths. This leads to the conclusion that we are actually under reporting the true number of Covid deaths.

Apart from this macro view, what is important is Covid can kill you. And someone with CLL is especially vulnerable. We should not be doing anything to diminish this serious threat.

Here in the USA the death certificate is actually a fairly informal thing but in most jurisdictions that I know of it requires a medical doctor to sign off and its a crime to lie. That said, its often just their "best guess" and autopsy or scientific testing is not commonly performed. So no, they DO NOT put Covid on your death certificate as contributing to your death - unless there is at least anecdotal evidence (family. nurse, etc) that it was a factor. Merely having Covid-19 and recovering would not be listed if believed to not be causal. Sadly all these conspiracy theories have gained widespread foothold everywhere. No, your hospital and doctors are not plotting against you for nefarious reasons or financial gain.

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to TampaSteve

Very well said, TampaSteve!

Not judgmental - this site is about CLL - not confirming or denying the veracity of Covid as a cause of death. I don’t think the original post is from anyone who has posted before or who necessarily has CLL - so what’s their agenda - certainly not harmony and soothing peoples nerves in these unsettling times. We are bombarded with enough ill informed opinion.....- actually I didn’t say what I really thought - I was being restrained- so if you want judgmental ......

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to Sepsur

In fairness Sepsur, the original poster does have very newly diagnosed CLL.

As for your attempts at restraint...we appreciate them! 😉

Newdawn

Because the hospital make more money stating the patient died from COV.Even a doctor admitted it is being done.

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to Baldy70

The fundamental issue is whether there is evidence of falsifying the cause of death on a death certificate for financial gain. Others have rightly asked for verifiable statements, as anecdotal comments without reference just inflame the debate and add no value.

I know I have seen a lot of hospitals just put Covid cause the death. Can’t understand why the hospital make money just writing Covid on the death certificate either did they not do a Covid test guess they don’t have time to check it so they just assume it.

mrsjsmith
mrsjsmith in reply to Janie67

Janie,I see you are a recent member.

This forum, certainly as I am aware is trying to be fact based. So where is your evidence for such a sweeping statement “ I know I have seen a of hospitals just put Covid cause the death “ Where did you see this please.

Colette

Janie67
Janie67 in reply to mrsjsmith

USA Today a paper wrote April 27 2020. Federal Cares Act that provided extra funding for patients that died while being treated for pneumonia or Covid. My husband showed me this article. I didn’t mean to start this confusing. I guess I thought everyone had seen this paper. Sorry!

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Janie67

Janie67, Which hospitals do you know for a fact are "just putting Covid" as the cause of death where that is incorrect? Where are your references? How do you know for a fact none of these patients had Covid as a contributing cause of death? And if you think hospitals are "making money" in this pandemic I believe you are misinformed. The usual "profit" procedures for hospitals are generally elective procedures, which have been suspended during all this. PPE costs are through the roof, staff is overworked (overtime costs a lot to a budget), smaller & rural hospitals are at the verge of bankruptcy & closing.

aha.org/guidesreports/2020-...

healthcarefinancenews.com/n...

jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...

healthsystemtracker.org/cha...

catalyst.nejm.org/doi/full/...

Speedscreed
Speedscreed in reply to SofiaDeo

I have two sisters who are nurses, I know how hard they work. I will look into where this happened, since it was my best friend who told me. I was also made aware that hospitals declaring covid on a death certificate get an £1800 cash bonus. This would certainly make covid claims a worthwhile declaration to cash-strapped hospitals. However, this could turn out to be a rumour, and needs further investigations.

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to Speedscreed

Please be aware that you have not restricted this post to the community so it can find it’s way onto the net. I’d ask all members not to name or shame (or even hint at any medic or hospital) or make allegations that could contravene defamation laws. Wild speculative allegations have no place on this site.

Newdawn

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Newdawn

Can you restrict this post to the community? I think that's a reasonable thing to ask, to not promote anyone out-of-site taking anything here out of context & spreading it around.

And Speedscreed, if it is indeed true that hospitals are reimbursed X amount for doing the testing, autopsy, etc. work needed to determine if a patient had Covid contributing to their death, that's a payment for services rendered, not a "bonus". We need the epidemiological data to get a true idea of how this disease has impacted our society. In the US some fees have been advanced to help offset Covid costs, I don't see the problem with the UK also doing so, except couching it in terms of "cash bonus" which IMO is pretty offensive. Those terms detract from what the dedicated docs, nurses, & others in that overwhelmed system are going through.

,

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to SofiaDeo

I can but it’s Speedscreed’s post and it should be his choice.

Newdawn

Speedscreed
Speedscreed in reply to SofiaDeo

But surely they are not paid for normal autopsy's?? Anyway I tnd to agree that this is outside the scope of the intention of this site, and will keep any further suspicions to myself👍

SofiaDeo
SofiaDeo in reply to Speedscreed

IDK about post-Covid, but 10 years ago when my mom died in hospital, an autopsy was optional, requested by family, & paid for by same. Since we really really need data regarding if/how/to what extent Covid contributes to deaths, I agree with asking hospitals to be more proactive in seeking autopsies for Covid patients, and not asking the family to pay for it. So the government will reimburse hopitals the expense, instead of the family paying. But like many things, the fact of this reimbursement can be twisted to have offensive intent ("cash bonus") instead of something less offensive, like "in an effort to gather data, the government will reimburse hospitals X amount for autopsies verifying Covid was a contributor".

It makes me wonder if a so-called media group like Fox News is spreading sensationalistic interpretations around the UK. I hate that there's a segment of "journalists" who are more interested in limbic-stimulating Sound Bites instead of dispassionate reporting of facts.

A Shelby County man questions what is going on at the Shelby County Health Department.

His mother died six months ago, but the health department just sent her a letter saying she is COVID-19 positive.

Troy Whittington said he was surprised when he opened the letter this week from the Shelby County Health Department. He knew what was in that letter was false.

The media are saying up one in three UK Covid death certificates are possibly inaccurate. There is, I am told a significant payment for certifying a Covid Death.... Certainly the Care Home assistant who told me the death fee, also told me of three expected deaths in one weekend, in which as far as the staff were concerned Covid never entered into it.....In all 3 cases the GP's refused to attend and merely told the staff it was a Covid death...Not exactly reassuring...Not illegal either

pulsetoday.co.uk/news/uncat...

The Care Home staff told me £165 per death This article says Zero per death

reuters.com/article/uk-fact...

I wonder if things have changed?

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to Ampleforth

That legislation change was a year ago according to your reference, from which I quote:-

"The changes apply to all deaths, not just Covid-19 related deaths, but come in response to an expected increase in deaths related to the virus.

Chief scientific adviser Patrick Vallance has said that 20,000 deaths or fewer would be a ‘good outcome’ of the coronavirus outbreak, admitting that the likely death toll is much higher."

Worldometer currently shows over 112,000 COVID-19 related deaths in the UK. With "the media are saying up (to) one in three UK Covid death certificates are possibly inaccurate", that at best, gets the number of COVID-19 related deaths in the UK down to over 75,000 deaths, well over the 20,000 hoped for a year ago. :(

Thanks for the Reuters Fact Check reference, which states 'A COVID-19 diagnosis “does not alter the charge for death certificates or cremation paperwork in any scenario,” according to the BMA spokesperson. “It is possible that whoever has made this statement has conflated some out-of-date rules with a misunderstanding of the different forms required after death and with erroneous figures.”'

Neil

Thanks...Where would HU-CLL be without you! And unusually for me, that remark is said minus any sarcasm at all...You simply are one of the main reasons I come here. Best Wishes,, and long may it (and you) continue, but I'll continue to speak my mind, much to the annoyance of some here...who seem unable to resist behaving like Thought Police...And rarely add anything but emotionally biased opinions, hardly ever their own.

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