The important point is surely- how muc... - Cholesterol Support
The important point is surely- how much plaque is there in my arteries.Does anyone know of a non-invasive test available on the NHS?
Hi ChasB,
This is absolutely a lay woman's answer based on my experience. It is possible to have an IMT scan on the NHS (intima media thickness) which will show up plaque or thickening. It is also possible to have a coronary calcium scan, but I don't know much about them.
Usually, you only get one of these if you have symptoms, but I got one , as the clinic I went to for a second opinion used them as a sort of diagnostic for FH...so I was able to get one.
I was watching a programme last week which was scathing about having these scans done privately, almost saying well what are you going to do anyway if it shows you have plaque (no mention of going on high dose statins!). The problems come when the plaque breaks away or completely blocks the artery.
I'm not sure now whether ignorance isn't bliss.
Hi Aliwally
Thanks for your reply.
The reason I am interested is I had a stent 10 years ago, went on statins and aspirin, started a good diet which evolved over time and into a nutritarian diet(Dr J. Fuhrman's), stopped the statins and aspirin, have had pomegranate every day for 2 years now and want to see if I have any plaque at all at this stage. I am hoping I am clear - I certainly feel on top of the world now and run, bike and climb mountains regularly!!
Hello ChasB - I would like to know more about the nutritarian diet of Dr J Fuhrman - I have not heard of the name or the diet - I have heard about pomegranate juice for all sorts of conditions but have not heard of it being a plaque stripper!
Dear Patch,
I discovered Dr. Fuhrman after I had my stent. A regular GP in New Jersey, he has made a study of optimal nutrition. All of his work is supported by clinical research and his books are full of references to the relevant studies reported in medical publications. His book "Eat to Live" was top of the New York Times bestseller list one month last year. I went to see him at The Royal Institue in London.He coined the phrase "nutritarian" which means obtaining the most nutrients possible per calorie of food. I have copied this piece on pomegranates for your info. Best wishes, Chas
Amazing Clinical Results
This fantastic little fruit recently made its way back into the news after some spectacular clinical results. Here's what you need to know:
Compounds found only in pomegranates called punicalagins are shown to benefit the heart and blood vessels. Punicalagins are the major component responsible for pomegranate's antioxidant and health benefits. They not only lower cholesterol, but also lower blood pressure and increase the speed at which heart blockages (atherosclerosis) melt away.
Recent medical research studied heart patients with severe carotid artery blockages. They were given an ounce of pomegranate juice each day for a year. Not only did study participants' blood pressure lower by over 12 percent, but there was a 30 percent reduction in atherosclerotic plaque. Just as astounding, participants who did not take the pomegranate juice saw their atherosclerotic plaque increase by 9 percent.1
In other studies, potent antioxidant compounds found in pomegranates have shown to reduce platelet aggregation and naturally lower blood pressure, factors that prevent both heart attacks and strokes.2
Many thanks for this info Chas B, I shall read up on the good Dr, and send best wishes to you.
Hi ChasB
Pomegranates are great! Healthy and delicious. But...
Can you point me in the direction of this study you mention, please? Would love to read it. I'm worried it's the same one reference here (although not actually referenced e.g. no link to the journal it is published in):
naturalsociety.com/pomegran...
10 people, no methodology (did they give coaching or any other intervention) and no reference is not medical research.
I know I work in industry...and therefore can be seen as having ulterior "motives"...but feel strongly that the science needs to be supported before any claims are made. Giving people false hope that some pomegranate juice is all you need to reduce arterial plaque (and therefore encourage less vigilance to a healthy lifestyle) is irresponsible and dangerous.
Don't want to be a naysayer. I would love for there to be some good science here as I believe passionately in using nutrition to heal. But I have not seen it here yet.
Incidentally I can well believe the reduced platelet aggregation - the seed coating of tomatoes does this too (and there are some clear similarities between the two fruits).
Only Almonds, Sterols and Oat Beta Glucan - where there is sufficient evidence - have approved cholesterol reduction claims.
I have seen the science on Natto (fermented soya beans) and this is a good one for clot busting - tastes horrible though! no permitted health claim yet though. Good luck to anyone who fancies incorporating it into their diets - very popular in Japan though.
BetaBalance
References:
Hi Betabalance!
I have copied and pasted below the references relating to the beneficial effects of pomegranates. A lot more information is available on Dr Joel Fuhrman's website.
Best wishes, Chas.
1. Aviram M, Rosenblat M, Gaitini D, et al. Pomegranate juice consumption for 3 years by patients with carotid artery stenosis reduces common carotid intima-media thickness, blood pressure and LDL oxidation. Clin Nutr 2004;23(3):423-33.
2. Aviram M, Dornfeld L, Rosenblat M, et al. Pomegranate juice consumption reduces oxidative stress, atherogenic modifications to LDL, and platelet aggregation:studies in humans and in atherosclerotic apolipoprotein E-deficient mice. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;71(5):1062-76. Aviram M, Dornfeld L. Pomeganate juice consumption inhibits serum angiotensin coverting enzyme activity and reduces systolic blood pressure. Atherosclerosis 2001;158(1):195-8.
3. Kim ND, Mehta R, Yu W, et al. Chemopreventive and adjuvant therapeutic potential of pomegranate (Punica granatum) for human breast cancer. Breast Cancer Res Treat 2002;71(3):203-17. Kohno H, Suzuki R, Yasui Y, et al. Pomegranate seed oil rich in conjugated linolenic acid suppresses chemically induced colon carcinogenesis in rats.Cancer Sci 2004;95(6):481-6.
Toi M, Bando H, Ramachandran C, et al. Preliminary studies on the anti-angiogenic potential of pomegranate fractions in vitro and in vivo. Angiogenesis 2003;6(2):121-8.
Kawaii S, Lansky EP. Differentiation-promoting activity of pomegranate (Punica granatum) fruit extracts in HL-60 human promyelocytic leukemia cells. J Med Food 2004;7(1):13-8.
4. Mori-Okamoto J, Otawara-Hamamoto Y, Yamato H, Yoshimura H. Pomegranate extract improves a depressive state and bone properties in menopausal syndrome model ovariectomized mice. J Ethnopharmacol 2004;92(1):93-101.
5. Seeram et al, J Nutr Biochemistry 2005: (16) 360-367.
Thanks for supplying the references. Hmmm.
I am only a very mediocre scientist. A Science Degree (Human Nutrition) and a Masters. As part of my job I do have to spend time reading clinical studies though...So a quick scan of what you sent.
7 studies listed. 3 nothing to do with arterial plaque (and one with no title so not sure of what it is on).
Study two which I could find - only referenced a human study of 13 people - which wasn't a cross over. Was also only such a short study (2 weeks) that they only looked at markers of lipoprotein oxidation and cholestrol aggregation - in vivo and in mice (so not in the human body). Demonstrating an effect on the markets is not demonstrating the health benefits that the words/claims above state.
I'm afraid I am not convinced. But having said that keep eating and enjoying the pomegranates. Definitely healthy and definitely delicious - just don't expect them to dissolve away all your arterial plaque.
Thanks for your reply. I found the first study was the most interesting. A three year study showing a reduction in plaque. So I will definitely keep enjoying them! Thanks again, Chas.
Glad you are enjoying them...
This paper does not show a reduction in plaque but a reduction in IMT. Furthermore analyses have found that change in IMT is not predictive of cardiovascular events.
In addition all the benefits are related back to the anthocyanin and tanin content - which are certainly not unique to the Pomegranate. Glass of red wine anyone? French paradox etc...etc...
Sorry to be a pedant - I'm not meaning to pick on the wonderful pomegranate (I love them)...but if there was really science out there proving a reduction in arterial plaque it would be a game changer and would save lives (by the thousands).
I feel strongly that people should not be misled.
It is so easy to use the internet to put a health claim out there which is not adequately supported. And it is simply not fair.
P.S. Realise that you are not trying to profit from this. Simply sharing something that you feel has been of benefit for you.
Sorry - Rant over!
Thanks for your comments. I,too, feel strongly that people should not be misled. To that end I have endeavoured to find more details of the study that appears to show that consumption of something so ordinary ( and delicious) as pomegranate can have such beneficial effects on atherosclerotic plaque.
Not being a scientist myself, I have not been able to find the info on the net. I have copied and pasted what I found at the Life Extension Magazine website. I would very much appreciate your comments on this and like to know if you can throw any more light on the details of these studies.
For years, scientists have believed that while antioxidants and other nutrients can slow additional atherosclerotic plaque buildup, they do little to reverse the process once plaque has already formed on the arterial walls. Now, a remarkable study from Israel indicates that pomegranate can actually reduce existing plaque formations in the arteries.
Nineteen patients from the Vascular Surgery Clinic in Haifa, Israel, were selected to participate in this three-year trial.9 All were non-smokers between the ages of 65 and 75, with asymptomatic severe carotid artery narrowing (stenosis) ranging from 70% to 90%. In other words, their arteries were so occluded by plaque buildup that only 10-30% of the original artery volume was available to permit blood flow. Ten of the 19 patients consumed 50 mL (1.7 ounces) of pomegranate juice daily, while the other nine received a placebo beverage. Both groups had similar blood pressure, cholesterol, and glucose levels at baseline, and continued their ongoing drug regimens. Dietary and lifestyle practices were kept constant during the study.
Despite the patients’ advanced atherosclerosis, ingesting pomegranate juice produced statistically significant reductions in the thickness of their carotid artery walls, which is correlated with decreased risk for heart attack and stroke. After only three months, the average thickness declined by 13%, and after 12 months, the thickness dropped 35% compared to baseline. During this same 12-month period, the average carotid artery thickness of the placebo group increased by 9%.
This study also measured various other parameters of cardiovascular health. One year of pomegranate supplementation reduced the peak systolic velocity of the blood in the carotid arteries, while systolic blood pressure itself dropped by 21%. Systolic blood pressure refers to the maximum arterial pressure when the heart beats. Pomegranate intake appears to clear so many obstructions in the carotid arteries that the blood encounters less resistance, enabling the heart to pump at a reduced pressure. Less pressure through a wider “pipe” results in less speed, or velocity.9
Pomegranate consumption did not change blood levels of glucose, LDL, or high-density lipoprotein (HDL). Standard markers of heart, kidney, and liver function, as well as homocysteine and blood cell counts, also remained unchanged.9 However, the Israeli researchers noted a number of improvements in blood markers that help to explain why pomegranate so effectively supports cardiovascular health.
For example, total antioxidant status in the blood was increased by 130% after 12 months of pomegranate use, while serum lipid peroxidation was reduced by 59%. Also contributing to the improvements was an 83% increase in serum paraoxonase-1, an enzyme that can reduce harmful lipid peroxides in arterial cells and in lipoproteins in coronary and carotid lesions.9-11 In addition, one year of pomegranate use more than doubled the time it took for the initiation of LDL oxidation, from 30 minutes to 65 minutes. Since LDL must be oxidized before it can adhere to the arterial wall, delays in oxidation and increasing levels of antioxidants in the blood keep new plaque from building up, while paraoxonase-1 may help break up existing plaque, leading to overall reductions in plaque formation over time.9
While all these one-year improvements are remarkable, some of the parameters continued to show improvement until the end of the three-year study. For example, there was a further 16% reduction in lipid peroxidation at 36 months. It appears, however, that continued use of pomegranate is required to sustain these enhancements. One month after stopping supplementation, the study participants saw their average total antioxidant status drop by 35%, while their serum paraoxonase-1 activity declined by 18%.9 As a result, pomegranate should be incorporated in a long-term program for enhancing cardiovascular health and longevity.
Another Israeli study confirmed that pomegranate reduces both systolic blood pressure and serum angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) activity.12 After only two weeks, 50 mL of pomegranate juice daily lowered systolic pressure by 5%, while producing a 36% drop in ACE activity. Since a reduction in ACE activity has been shown to help prevent atherosclerosis independent of its effects on blood pressure, the researchers noted that pomegranate juice appears to offer broad-spectrum protection against cardiovascular disease."
The bulk of this "article" is on the same study. The difference is journalism v science (the paper doesn't reference plaque but IMT), the journalist makes the leap themselves. It could be down to other things. To hypothesis myself if could be increase NO2 production, or increase arterial flexibility (both good things). In no way shape of form is a reduced IMT a bad thing - but meta-analysis does tells us that reduced IMT is not predictive of reduced cardiovascular events - but equally we can't just guess that it is plaque being magically zapped away. Out of interest what would happen to it - makes me thing there would be clots floating along our arteries waiting to block something important!
Reducing arterial plaque sells. Reduced IMT does not. So the marketing machine is allowing (allowing - is a nice way of saying it, a cynic would say something else) poor journalism to create a false conclusion.
Antioxidant status is a given - but not unique to Pomegranate. Blueberries, Sour cherries and grapes would all exhibit similar abilities.
By the way you're eating the real thing and not buying the Pomegranate Juice - these are inexpensive and great for you so you've not fallen victim to the propaganda.
BetaBalance
Thanks for your lengthy reply. I appreciate you taking the time. i don't understand your point that "reduced IMT is not predictive of reduced cardiovascular events." Surely a reduced IMT means more room inside the artery for the blood to travel through and as stated in my copied and pasted article "...ingesting pomagranate juice produced statistically significant reductions in the thickness of their carotid artery walls, which correlated with decreased risk for heart attack and stroke."
Clearly both quotes cannot be true. I think I am happy to go with the latter. As far as clots floating around in my bloodstrem waiting for a chance to do harm; all I can say is that I have suffered no such harm and, in fact feel more healthy and alive now at 64 ( birthday next month!) than I have ever done. I work full time as a maths teacher and run at least 20 mins every morning before breakfast.
By the way, have you ever read a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Sherman, Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University and his son, Thomas M Campbell, a physician. It discusses the results of the "China-Cornell-Oxford Project" which ran for over 20 years and studied 6,500 people. In 1990 it was described by the New York Times as the "Grand Prix of Epidemiology" This book comes to some astounding conclusions and is well worth a Google search at least. Better still read it in full - it is, however, quite a weighty tome. Best wishes and thanks again, Chas.
I am very familiar with the China study.
You are clearly not for turning.
The statements are not diametrically opposed - you need to look at the wording. Meta-analysis (as in results from many studies) proves no connection, they state the results from their experiment - which was in 13 people (halved as wasn't cross over). Once again you are quoting a journalists interpretation not the study. There is no scientific rigour needed for a journalist interpretation.
The statement re clots was tongue in cheek - there is no evidence of plaque reduction hence there is no risk of increased free clots. My whole concern is the reference to plaque - and to date nothing has been brought forward to demonstrate this.
I am delighted that you are feeling good. But any high in antioxidant diet would leave you feeling just as great as you do now. Pomegranates is as good a way of doing this as anything else.
Good to present options and supporting science to encourage readers to make their own informed decision. However the original statement (which would have proved very persuasive) is false.
BetaBalance
Hmmm......
I am glad you are familiar with The China Study. You will therefore know that the main conclusion of this "Grand Prix of all epidemiological studies" is that it is our Western Diet with its wrong food choices that is the main cause of the current explosion in rates of heart disease, cancer,diabetes and obesity that we are currently experiencing. It follows that making the right food choices is the remedy for this problem.
Many people are woefully ignorant when it comes to knowledge about nutrition and this, I am sure, will include doctors and scientists. For example, the fact that there is more protein in 100 grams of broccoli than in 100 grams of sirloin steak - nearly twice as much - would, I think, be surprising to many.
I, myself do not promote or profit from any manufactured product. On the conclusions that can be drawn from the above studies on pomegranates, I think we will have to agree to disagree and I can see no point in continuing the discussion. This, then, will be my last post on this particular thread. I have, however, enjoyed and benefited from our exchange. It has made me look at the science a little more closely and has strengthened me in my beliefs. Best wishes to you.
Not sure why you bring up the western diet - we've not commented on it before. We don't disagree here. Highly processed refined carbs are killing us. Simple.
"Many people are woefully ignorant when it comes to knowledge about nutrition..." Yes they are..."For example, the fact that there is more protein in 100 grams of broccoli than in 100 grams of sirloin steak". No there are not (approx steak 25g per 100g to broccoli 3g per 100g protein)! I believe you are probably trying to compare 'calorie for calorie'. But again this is something quite different - I encourage people to eat both.
Studies are not cheap (especially three year ones even if it is a tiny number of people). Very little clinical work is not sponsored, I therefore find it amusing that you question my motives. There is no way that the studies you have referenced were not financial supported by someone with something to gain in the world of pomegranates. This does not make all scientists/science bad...but is the way of the world. However, as you want to believe what you are being told (the reason I detest unsupported claims) you don't question their motives...just mine.
YOU quoted a statement of fact re pomegranates reducing arterial plaque. I wanted this to be true (believe me - there is no conflict between my interests and pomegranates (or any other food for that matter), but have not previously come across any science to support it. Hence I asked for this statement to be supported. You've not shown anything that does.
The studies on PJ are quite good and show benefits. If this discussion had focussed on what has been demonstrated and not what hasn't I wouldn't have asked a single question.
You are quite right on the gram / calorie thing - mea culpa. I meant broccoli has almost twice the protein per 100 calories as steak..
On the China -Cornell - Oxford Project , the main finding was that as the consumption of animal products(meat, eggs, dairy, fish) increased so did the incidences of our Western diseases. There were extremely low -almost zero- rates of heart disease etc in the most rural parts of China where people lived mainly on vegetables and rice.
This IS my last post - I promise!!
Thanks again.
My understanding is that the juice is more potent than the arils from the fruit alone for the simple reason that they crush the skins as well as the arils in making juice, and the skin contains more of the "good stuff". So I'm told.
I like natto! It has a rich, nutty flavour that is tasty in small quantities. Just wish I could get it here in my small town, but it has to be refrigerated - like yogurt - so local stores don't bother the stock it.
Hi Rusty,
Haven 't looked at this thread for a while. Thanks for the info. Where can I get some to try?
I wouldn't call what is on arteries plaque as that is on teeth an very hard. You can have a scan to see what condition your arteries are in or wih a dye put into arteries which gives a really true picture and I wouldn't call that invasive. I've never heard of eating pomgranite to prevent build up in arteries I will look it up. I believe all your execise is a more likely source of good health but really if you are not taking Doctors advice You wont know until you get a blockage which could be too late. My husband who was very active had a heart attack and was on the operating table within 30 minutes was told 15 mnutes or less more and he would have had no chance.
Do you have to take the pomegranate as juice? Just mindful about the amount of sugar in drinks which is in the news at the moment.
No, I eat half a pomegranate per day - about £1 each in Sainsbury's.. Score it around the "equator" and gently prise apart.
Sugar definitely not a good idea.
Hi there-I'm waiting to have one of these special scans to asess the condition of the arteries in my leg.
I am hoping it will give me some info and insight on how to battle my high cholestral which seems to be more a gene thing, as I do all the right thing excersise watch my diet etc
I am going to investigate the pomegranate and the diet you are talking of to see if it will help
I will let you know how the scan goes - I have heard beetroot juice helps get blood pressure down- best of luck
Hi Patsy,
Thanks for replying. I am interested in the scan you are gojng to have. Is it called an IMT scan? If not, do you know the name of it and how it works? I know the IMT scan is normally taken across the neck, where the artery is more exposed and accessible, and it can detect atherosclerotic plaque build up in the carotid artery.
Morning chase b - I'm sorry I don't have the name of the scan- the reason for my having it done - I had a bacterial lung infection along with pains in my left leg- last July -
The docs were more concerned with my breathing problems and misread the sonnagraphers report that I had small clots in my ankle( how he missed that I don't know)
9wees later the hop called me back all singing and dancing they had noticed the error- more tests revealed the clots had dispersed on their own- 2weeks later a clot in my leg and one in my lung- 2weeks before my lung infection my GP stopped my statin and bp tablet due to hair loss-
The Hosp then put me on warfarin 4weeks later more hair shredding skin blood blisters,stomach pain diareah - a bad various vein developed in my right leg causing severe pain - this has lead to a Doppler which was ok - I now have to have an artery scan to asses if any disease or cholestral blocking
So where back to your question I'm unsure the name of the test- all I know this consultant only visits South Wales every two weeks to do the special scan which shows up the interior of the arteries
Sorry it's such a long saga I just wanted you to have the full picture so you can ascertain the relevance to your question
I'm now back on a statin I'm not happy about it S I know after several months the side effects will kick in - in the meantime I'm researching everything to find an alternative
Hope I haven't bored you - any info you may have would be useful-- thanks for your contact stay well
Dear Patsy,
Thanks again for your reply. You certainly haven't bored me and I'm sorry you are having so much trouble. Did you read my reply to Patch 14 further up? "Eat to Live" might be a book that could be of interest and use to you at this time.
Good luck with it all,
Best wishes, Chas.
Dear Traci,
This is very interesting. I shall ask my GP about this. Thanks very much.
Hi Concerned,
Thanks for your reply.I understand your point about us having the ability to eat most things. We do, after all, have canine teeth as well as molars. I would humbly urge you to just take a look at the clip of Prof Campbell available on youtube. This is a man who has Ph D in Biochemistry, Nutrition and Microbiology - clearly a top man in his field.What he has gleaned from his life long study of nutrition makes sense to me (he's an old man now). You can find it by typing in" Professor T Colin Campbell PhD - Animal protein( meat and dairy)..." on youtube. Best wishes, Chas.
Hi Bala
No, I haven't got round to doing that. Thanks for bringing it back to my attention. I am just about to have my annual cardiac check up at my NHS doctor's surgery and will let you know if I can get them to agree to a PAD test. Still not taking any form of medication -- just relying on the pomegranates and veg food. Feeling great!
I have found these posts very interesting. My reason of interest in this subject is for my husband, not myself. He just suffered a severe stroke to the right side of his brain and has left side paralysis and is now blind in the left eye. The doctor said his carotid arteries were 95% blocked with plaque. It is too late for the right side but as for the left, they want to go in and clean the plaque from the artery. I understand that the procedure has it's risks but the benefits far out weigh the risks as far as I'm concerned because the chances of another stroke if they don't do the surgery are near certain. What I have began to wonder is if the carotid arteries have 95% plaque build up, wouldn't all the arteries in the body also have it? Why would it limit itself to the carotid arteries? By the way, they have done CAT scans to determine the plaque build up in my husband's carotid arteries.
HI, ChasB can pomegranate juice be taken by diabetic, as my mom is diabetic and has bp and twice she had heart failure, or just by eating pomegranate can the benefits be reaped, Pls. reply.
