What is moral duty?

[Cateran]

We are being exhorted just now that it is our "moral duty" to return our children to schooling. Does morality require this potentially harmful act, both to children and to teachers and support staff, or is this a paternalistic command from government, ignoring young pupils' welfare?

[2greys]

The moral duty is to get on top of the ongoing problems with Test, Track and Trace which is not working.

thelancet.com/journals/lanc...

[Ian1967 in reply to 2greys]

Exactly 2greys, wasn’t the message from this incompetent government a month ago it was everyone’s moral duty to go out and get ratted when the pubs reopened? Despite the fact the infection still being rampant in the community and the Track and Trace system being an utter shambles!

[Cateran in reply to Ian1967]

Nice one, Ian. What I was thinking about is that we are being "obliged" with the word "duty" to act without due care and benefit to others almost, children and schools staff. The onus is placed upon us when, if, things flare up again, so that Government gets off Scottish free and remains blameless, whilst the turn down is our fault , somehow.

Apologies to Poirot and his Belgian linguistic idiosyncrasies.

[Ian1967 in reply to Cateran]

Hi Cateran, totally agree that’s been the governments modus operandi from the start of the pandemic, first it was “we’re following the science” and that sort of worked , until it became known Cummings was sitting in on the SAGE committee, then we learned Cummings childcare arrangements and his unusual eye test, by driving 50 miles round trip to and from Barnard Castle at the height of the lockdown, after that the government scientists started standing up to them then the government stopped even paying lip service to the scientists, then their new catchphrase was “we’re putting our faith in the good old British public’s Common Sense, in other words absolving themselves of any blame whatsoever!

[2greys in reply to Ian1967]

They keep saying that it will be safe for them all to return. A few months ago they also kept saying that we were safe in the UK and able to cope admirably and well prepared, carry on as normal.

No irrefutable proof of any kind given, just empty words. We could probably be at the embryonic beginnings of yet another Gov led disaster. The next thing we hear will be "Of course, we are following the science", again, without providing any irrefutable proof of such.

Whilst the evidence is there, that children do not get as sick with it, there is no evidence to say that they, cannot carry it back to child minding grandparents, cannot carry it back home and to siblings to spread in different schools.

Then they will ladle out excuses, like "it is novel virus and we are still learning" without actually taking any responsibility for their stupidity.

Test, Track and Trace has to be properly operational first before fully reopening the schools.

I really hope that I am wrong.

[Kristicats in reply to 2greys]

I can see a lot of teachers and children not going back this year. Why can’t they put some of the money that they’ve been throwing around by the billion so we can get a devise that instantly tests everyone entering a school/ hospital/ work place? Rather than wasting time and cash on maybes .

[2greys in reply to Kristicats]

I agree. Not Clear, No Entry. Not just to schools but everywhere, shops, pubs, restaurants any public place. Now that would be a game changer, no transmission and a route to Zero Covid.

[Kristicats in reply to 2greys]

Everyone should feel safe going back to/ being at work then. Isn’t that their main objective?

[2greys in reply to Kristicats]

I am not sure just what their main objective is. They keep chopping and changing their priorities and advice (or what they want us to do) so often.

[Hidden]

The flip side of that - is it good for children's mental health and psychological wellbeing to be away from school, and interacting with other children, learning to interact, the right and wrong way to behave among others, what works, what doesn't work in their behaviour.

The start of their training for their eventual working life.

[Hidden]

Jees, not blame the govt time again is it.

This gets sooooo boring

bye bye

[tomc]

It is the Government's Moral Duty to do what's right for the welfare of Britain.

I DO NOT BELIEVE now or any time soon that it is in the best interest to send kids back into an enclosed environment, OR open pubs where you can get tanked up and throw cushion to the wind when in a stupor...

Stop playing at being politicians .... like a kid would play with a macono set ... you can repair and re-do a macano creation YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH Gods creation, MAN, oh and to be correct, woman ... oh, Or the planet, oh or the stars ....It goes on and on.

Boris, when you can create what god has..... you may, ONLY may get the respect you crave.

[hypercat54]

Morality versus mortality. Interesting point.

[Bevvy]

Sorry but I strongly believe children SHOULD return to school. They have already been out of school for months. I have NO doubt that some of the people saying is not safe are those crowding on to beaches at the moment.

Children being schooled at home hasn’t been happening for the majority of children and they need to be educated.

Also am very concerned about those children who are NOT having a happy time at home. For some children the only respite from a difficult home life is school.

This virus is going to be around for a long time and realistically children can’t stay off school until (if) a vaccine is found.

[Badbessie]

If you look at history you were given a White feather if you did not do your duty and go and get slaughtered in the trenches. Duty is a two way process in my opinion. The government as a duty to ensure that each child is as safe as possible and all systems to ensure that should be up and running. IE testing and track and trace. They have failed at the moment and until they do then my son will not be sending his children to school. He feels that his duty of care is first to the child not a political wish to enhance the economy in these difficult times.

[cofdrop-UK]

Everyone understands how important it is for children not to be missing their education, friendships, teachers and for their mental health. To me that goes without saying as it is stating the bleeding obvioous.

Moral duty lies with the Gov. As track and trace should as Christi said be in place at every school. The statement being bandied about at present that no teacher in the WORLD has ever caught covid from school is such a broad unprovable statement. How could they possibly know that teachers who have had covid did not get it from work?

True it is widely recognised that children generally get covid mildly, but kids are excellent spreaders. Whilst this may not be thought of as a huge problem in a more affluent area, in a more deprived area it can be a huge problem. My daughter teaches in a deprived area where the majority of housing is back to back or terraced multi generational. As some of the kids don’t have access to tablets (which lest we forget were promised) they went out door to door and gave out homework as well as online.

When years 1 and 6 were in, they re-arranged yr 6 into 4 classrooms for 90 yr 6 Mon - Thurs. Friday was off for deep clean. The following week the rest of yr 6 took the place of the kids in the previous week.

So in a school built for 400 pupils, the Gov expect everyone to go from this to a school full of over 700 pupils with no testing on site.

Although our city is not one of the ones locked down, there are 2 areas where the numbers of covid have raised so much that the council have put in place a track and trace system within those areas. One of the areas where there is a spike is within the area where my daughter teaches.

Many of the parents took their kids out of school before lockdown, so it will be interesting to see how many actually attend when the next school year starts.

A very interesting question Terry with some interesting answers.

Love cx

Ps There was a young woman on our local news stating that the Gov track and trace has a 40+ success rate. The council set up a local track and trace and this young woman was getting a 98% success rate. She thought it was because the national number was not a number recognised by many and they did not answer it. Whereas the number she called from was a number from our city, which people were much more likely to answer. Food for thought!

[Ian1967 in reply to cofdrop-UK]

Yes cofdrop-UK, apparently they’re using an 0300 number, which is mainly used by ambulance chasing lawyers and other spam cold callers, Dr John Campbell mentioned on his Covid-19 YouTube channel the other day, a lot of people block these numbers for that very reason.

[Cateran in reply to cofdrop-UK]

This is an excellent response cofdrop to a vital ethical issue. Moral agency carries with it the consequences of our actions and choices.Your daughter's case is an example of this dilemma: she has that duty of care as Badbessie alluded to in her post, precisely because she is a teacher, but must take care for her charges and their safety. After all, your daughter is legally "in loco parentis" as I was as a schoolmaster, and takes that DUTY as a moral imperative. As a moral agent, she acts with the consequences in mind, and is right to do so

Your post is very illuminating and relevant, cofdrop, so many thanks. It is a moral imperative that you take care, my dear friend, as well as your loved ones.

Terry.

[Ergendl]

To me it's emotional blackmail from a government which is morally bankrupt.

[Superzob]

I'm also finding it difficult to separate fact from fiction at the moment, particularly as the scientists have distanced themselves from Government policy, having realised that they were being set up. And I don't think the Government has yet to realise how much credibility it's lost, because the polls are still reasonably favourable, so it is still trying to *spin* a pandemic and put out patronising messages.

That aside, and having a scientific and risk management background myself, I am trying comprehend how mixing children in school is not going to increase the risk of virus transmission. I would conclude that there is an increased risk; the question then arises: "is this risk significant?". And therein lies the rub, because nobody can know for sure. Certainly, the more schools that follow basic hygiene and social distancing *rules*, the less likely the spread of infection, and there does appear to be some anecdotal evidence from abroad that school children are not "super spreaders". To me, the real issue is how much notice the Government takes of the means by which those countries have been successful in returning children to school, and learn and apply those lessons (lessons aren't just for school children!).

In the end, we all have an individual perception of risk and getting a balance which everyone agrees upon is well nigh impossible. I do accept that there is a genuine need to get back to some sort of normality, and we need to put COVID-19 into the risk equation, together with other risks which we have always taken for granted; this would certainly make sense if COVID is going to be around for the foreseeable future. It is the *moral duty* of Government to weigh up those relative risks in all its decisions, including the reopening of schools.

[Cateran in reply to Superzob]

Good contribution Superzob and interesting that you are cross-evaluating, facts that can be generalised to other cases. Risk management is frequently based on paradigm cases which can be significant and relevant, as with Covid-19. Linking, as you do an ethical component. as with all risk work, the "moral duty" factor, then the weighing up process is also requisite of responsible governance (management, if you will).

Thank you for this science based analysis. Ethics is always stronger if grounded in science.

[Angelagone]

Is the government thinking about our children or is it thinking that many people cant easily return to work until the children are in school ?