buteyko

[allanh]

I know there are previous threads on this, but has anyone tried it lately ? and if so what did they think. Try typing in on google shallow breathing by andrew murphy.

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My day goes from bad to worse, 1st a blocked NG tube now Buteyko. I am sorry I just have a abiding fear of a breathing technique that for me and a few others would actually make us worse for most will make no difference at all and actually helps a few people

It has helped some people here but has always been done under the close supervision of their respiratory team by people who know what they are doing. Please don't buy a book and give it a go at home.

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hey,

My Nan brought me a book on the buteyko technique, telling me that I shouldn't desmiss it and should give it ago. Well.. breathing through my nose all well and good, but at night I struggle to sleep, this book suggests sellotaping your mouth (or your childs) mouth shut at night..... so i spent 5 nights trying to breath through my nose, anyhow went to the doctors on monday, and my oxygen sats were 90% and when I said maybe it was because I was trying this method, my doctor nearlly jumped down my throat and told me to breathe normally, saying its not safe for people who are serve asthmatics, more for those who have proplems with panicking, who rush there breathing. Any way after my telling off, an hour later my oxygen sats were back up to 96% and I slept much better that night!

So defo agreeing with Bex, at least check with your doctor before trying it, also I found the claims made in the book rather unrealistic to say the least...

ally x

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That website is actually a good, common sense summary of issues around Buteyko.

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What CathBear says. In fact, it's good enough for me to link you directly to it:

tinyurl.com/buteyko

Well worth a read if you're thinking about trying Buteyko.

[Lil_tinx66]

hi all ,

just logged on with full intentions of asking about buteyko

so i followed the link that peaksteve posted

and gave it a go but i can only hold my breath in step one (control pause breathing test) for 15 seconds - thinking this techniques not for me or perhapss i should persiver( spelling !)

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Whatever you do please please please don't go sellotaping up your or anyone elses mouth.

[Lil_tinx66]

i shant be doin that i dont get on with sellotape x

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sorry, should have made it alot clearer that I think the suggested idea of sellotaping yours and especially a childs mouth shut, is very very silly.

ally

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Can't imagine what a small child might be thinking, as mummy comes in with a piece of wide sellotape saying ""This is to keep your mouth closed"".

Its ok, I know buteyko is used by some people and they apparently have good results. Just being a bit light hearted -ish.

[allanh]

buteyko

Thanks for all replies, i am trying the shallow breathing without sellotaping my mouth, have been unwell for last seven months and as you know you would try anything for relief. Will let you know how i get on. Currently on symbiort 200 (smart), hoping to cut down after three courses of pred.

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mouth taping

Just passing on a reference to a recent study of mouth-taping (50 participants) from Nottingham, which found:

""...RESULTS: Fifty participants completed the study and reported taping their mouth for a median 26 of 28 nights. Although 36 participants said mouth taping was very or fairly acceptable there were no differences between treatments for morning peak expiratory flow (mean difference -1l/min (95%CI, -9 to 7)) or symptoms scores (mean difference -0.12 (95%CI, -0.30 to 0.06)) nor for any secondary measures. CONCLUSIONS: Taping the mouth at night had no effect on asthma control in patients with symptomatic asthma.""

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/192...

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Hi

I am trying this under the supervision of my resp team. I havent been doing any of the mouth taping - I didnt want to tape my mouth shut. But the nose clearing techniques i've been trying as I have really bad allergies and my nose is always blocked. Its been good to help me be more aware of my breathing when i am having symptoms - checking that i am not panicking when am poorly etc.

I would not have tried it on my own, but was happy to with the right medical support. They've also got me back being able doing some exercise in the hospital gym.

jsy_duck

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buteyko worked and continues to work for me

Allan

A long reply!

Further to your query on buteyko, as my name ""Buteyko'd myasthma"" suggests, it worked really well for me. I started 6 years ago and continue to use it very successfully.

The name referred to as ""shallow breathing"" is inaccurate. It is much more accurate to refer to the technique as diaphragmatic reduced volume breathing. The main difference being that people tend to shallow breathe from the top of the chest rather than using their diaphragm. To check (and most people are not aware of how it works) your belly should move outwards on an inhale and inwards on an exhale. If you exaggerate it initially then you can sense it better when you do it relaxedly (obviously without stressing yourself!).

I would not agree nor would many who use the technique that 60 seconds control pause is achievable over such a short space of time. Indeed, it is rare that anyone achieves that in my experience. I am aware of an asthmatic international athlete whose control pause would have been less than 10 initially who built it up relatively quickly but had huge fitness and exercise habits. Many non-asthmatic athletes who are accustomed to mouth-breathing and a serious exercise schedule would also struggle to achieve 60 seconds within 2 months. Nasal breathing should be the desired breathing habit for all people where achievable.

I did a buteyko course and found the insight and support of the trainer invaluable, practically priceless and complete value for money (rather than being over priced as Andrew Murphy suggests). The technique saved me €1,000 a year I had been spending on medication (as well as improved control and quality of life).

It is very difficult to increase the control pause over 20 seconds without physical exercise.

Every 5 seconds increase in control pause makes a huge difference in quality of life. With the control pause, it is important to breathe in afterwards through your nose. Not your mouth. And it shouldn't be a big breath otherwise you are measuring your maximum pause rather than control pause. Typically this is twice the control pause. So if 15 seconds was all you could do wit a large breath in afterwards then thats your MP and your Control pause is 7.5secs. This is largely typical for asthmatics.

At a control pause of 40, then there should no longer be any symptoms of asthma.

I havent got there yet - mine is about 30 but this is sufficient to have me on no preventer medication (ex-seretide) and almost no reliever (ventolin once in a blue moon). This is also true during exercise, like most asthmatics i used to take puffs before during and after exercise, i can now exercise at a high level with no need for medication.

The exercises are time consuming initially and not as easy as suggested by Andrew Murphy. With good habits, the need to exercise regularly can replace the needto do these exercises. Personally, i would far prefer to have to do exercises and maintain a great quality of life than not to do so. I do mind my breathing but it becomes subconscious once you switch from the big mouth breathing habit to a reduced breathing nasal breathing habit.

Regarding taping your mouth, it is interesting to note that 36 of the 50 participants in the Nottingham trial found it very or fairly acceptable. Thats 72%. It doesn't state how the others got on in the summary i found but i can imagine that they found it more difficult. I did not use the tape but seeing as i nasal breathe all the time (other than when eating or on the out breath while talking, yawning etc etc) it would literally make the same difference as a sticky plaster on my elbow (other than the sensation of it being on my lips).

I have never heard of using cellotape. Definitely very uncomfortable. Microporous tape as used in the study is recommended. Most people do not need to use it long term once they have established a new habit (after a few weeks). You can make it slightly less sticky and have apiece turned over to form an easy pull tab so it can be taken off with no effort should the need arise.

A bit like one of the other posters, i found it hard at the beginning to sleep as i was used to far more air (thus felt uncomfortable). I persisted and it has made all the difference.

I would recommend learning this technique from someone who has the proper training in it and in consultation with your doctor. Under no circumstances should someone take a flier with reducing their medication on their own when they imagine they are starting to feel better.

In relation to the Nottingham Trials, they are useful trials although fully predictable results. Its not the nasal breathing in isolation only during the night that does it (did the trial only seek to examine this aspect of buteyko? I assume it did given the summary and conclusion) The period is too short to determine this and it couldn't be examined in isolation. Its a bit like a three legged stool and saying that when i examined one leg the chair would not stand up so its obviously redundant. There would be greater results from these trials if they were set up in consultation with some Buteyko experts.

I googled the trial (buteyko trial nottingham) as i had not heard of it and two separate buteyko websites came up early ( i can put up links if this is acceptable?).

They both came up with their own corollaries from the SAME trial results claiming that those using the buteyko method experienced "" * Reliever use - Reduction 100% and * Preventer use - median reduction 41.5% quoting Thorax 2003;58:674-679 S. Cooper, et al.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. There is also a quote from a participant in the trial who said""“I’m now the wrong side of 40 and still no inhalers. It was interesting to see the reports into our study. ... ... Still succeeding, still in control, still available as a living testimonial. Keep up the good work.” It sounds like buteyko had more than just an effect on his morning peak flow. He had another comment about how disbelieving he was of the trial conclusion.

Personally, i used to find peak flow measurements very difficult when short of breath to the extent of it nearly bringing on attacks. The control pause measurement is gentler on the lungs and has been very effective for me and many thousands of anecdotal others.

I wonder if the definition of ""normal"" breathing seeming to suggest that mouth breathing is normal now. . Well it has taken us 30-50 years to reverse a million years of evolution so! If mouth breathing is the new ""common place"" it doesn't mean its the new normal. (on a re-read i noticed that the trial mentioned usual not normal for which i am glad). The Asthma Society in Ireland recommends that people breathe through their nose where possible but cannot instruct people how. Nasal breathing reduces the irritation of the airways by filtering and reducing the volume of inhaled irritants. If at all possible without causing discomfort it makes a huge difference. Particles breathed into the lungs through the mouth can take 60-120 days to be removed from the body as opposed to your nose that removes these irritants, pollen etc in 15 minutes.

I realise that this may not benefit all asthmatics equally but do believe it warrants far greater research. I believe that in the near future, buteyko-type breathing instruction will form a new front line of treatment for the majority of asthmatics (not just some!).

Good luck with it!

[yaf_user681_24538]

Bit late on this one...

Hello!

As a newbie I just wanted to share my experience of trying the Buteyko technique. I got the book for Christmas 08 and got to work straight away making sure I breathe through my nose all the time.

Despite smug, self-satisfied constant nose breathing, the asthma has been up and down since Easter. Recently I remembered Buteyko and checked my control pause. I could only hold my breath for ten seconds! On a long car journey a few weeks ago, not driving, I decided to spend three hours calming down my breathing by breathing more shallowly, using my diaphragm instead of my chest muscles and taking only 5 or 6 breaths a minute (obviously not recommended if you're feeling out of breath!).

After two hours I checked my control pause again. To my UTTER astonishment I could hold my breath for 40 seconds. I was amazed. But three days later, me and my long control pause were off sick again.

Buteyko probably works for people who suffer from hyperventilation syndrome. I can see the benefits of nose breathing and all that, but I just don't think it helps asthma.

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reply to Zed531

Hi Zed531

Sorry to hear your asthma is playingup.

You should try buteyko again when you feel up to it. Although you feel you gave it a good go already, if you learn from an expert after discussing it with your asthma team then you would have a far better chance of success as well as being advised by your doctor.

Your Control pause of 10 seconds is about average for an asthmatic (non-asthmatics average somewhere around 15, down from 35 around 30-50 years ago- sedentary lifestyles and other lifestyle and food changes contribute, huge change in number of people who habitually mouth breathe). After three hours of reduced breathing you had a breath hold of 40 secs. This would indicate a CP of around 20 seconds which shows you did the technique very well. To have a CP of 40 secs you would need to have a breath hold of 60 secs everyday. Consistency is the key to unlocking buteyko.

After your 40 secs achievement, your breathing pattern would have reverted to your regular pattern, thus resulting in increased symptoms as your CP reduced back to your regular 10. Your symptoms would be present most of the time with a CP of 10.

The reduction in rate on its own is not enough (there are exercises to reduce the volume breathed per minute) as the volume remains around the same.

Most people habitually breathe through much. Breathing through your mouth has become the new normal breathing. Its a huge factor in many seemingly unrelated symptoms including asthma. The nasal breathing is about 25-30% of it, the rest down to using exercises (breathing or general exercise using nasal breathing) to optimize your breathing to the correct level.

Hope thats a help.

Due to an effect known as the Bohr effect (after the gu who discovered it), if we breathe too much the rate of tranfer of oxygen to the body is reduced as the oxygen adheres more strongly to the haemoglobin. So when i feel like i cannot breathe enough, i realise (though it seems counter-intuitive) that i am already breathing too much. I try and relax and calmly focus onmy breathing to reduce it.

Good luck!

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not read this till now, and tried it myself. managed to hold my breath for 60 seconds, think it may be just possible to do it a bit longer, but the light headed feeling stopped me. Wonder what's possible with practice?

I agree with the nasal breathing for most daily life, and asthmatics do tend to over breath, but it's not possible to do highly physical exercise only while breathing through your nose, think we've been through that before on here.

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Please be careful people and only do it if your GP agrees, i asked mine and he said i straight no, it all depends on the level of asthma you have and how much medication you are on. A normal person go ahead, a low asthmatic check with GP first and any higher asthmatic defo check be prepared to be told no.

Plumie

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Holding breath

I've always breathed through my nose. My school was noted for its choirs and we always carried off the regional music prizes. Using their voice exercises - dinned into us from age 5 to 18 - If singing, I can hold a note for 30 beats even with asthma. Handy for PS2's Singstar

Before I had peak flow meter, I'd check my breathing by how many beats I could hold for. If 12 plus, I reckoned I was OK. Between 5 - 8, time for reliever until back to holding for 12 plus.

BTW Peak Flow doesn't change all that much when need for reliever strikes.

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breathing and exercising

i manage to do high intensity sport while breathing through my nose. Takes a while to build it up and there are times i feel mighty tempted to gulp some air through my mouth but i resist it almost all the time.

Its about maximising the efficiency of your breathing. For short sprint type events i agree that it is limiting in terms of final speed to breathe through your nose. For stamina events the key is optimising your rate of breathing and the rate of exercise, it needs to be in balance. With practice, and yes it is slow starting off but worthwhile to do it Woody-som, you can achieve the same speed and intensity of exercise while breathing through your nose for longer events.

With practice doing those exercises, you can increase your breath hold to over 120 secs (only for very fit people who almost appear not to breathe when at rest). This is only possible where you consistently breathe at an optimal rate (and nasally) as your breath hold ability will fall off quickly as your breathing reverts to its underlying habit. THe key is to do the exercises to change the habit then the exercise compulsion can be eased as thankfully it works on autopilot (becomes the new normal breathing pattern).

The breath hold is on the out breath, and you also need to breathe in through your nose afterwards for a true measure.

GrannyMo : I now breathe through my nose all the time (after 32 years of mouth breathing), in and out. While sleeping, exercising, coughing (rare exceptions), sneezing (rare exceptions), talking (i cant sing!).My nose has never blocked in the last 7 years even with supercolds. It made a tremendous and quite unexpected difference to me and also my hayfever and allergies to dust, pets, pollen, perfume, smoke although i avoid smoke still and petrol fumes too where i can (good body sense to do so anyway). Nasal breathing is about 25% of the effect and 75% or so is down to gradually becoming accustomed to a new rate and volume of breathing. My rate of exercise during chest colds has improved by many 100 of percent. Before i would struggle to walk 20m now i can compete at practically the same level even with a cold (like many regular people (without asthma) are able to).

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two interesting web link on this subject

asthma.about.com/od/faq/f/f...

asthma.about.com/od/faq/f/f...

I've been looking into this, and tried a run on Saturday, nasal breathing only, it's possible providing slow down a bit, keep blowing your nose, but with practice can see that it may be possible, and beneficial, as Saturday was cold, but I never needed the buff as I wasn't breathing in huge amounts of cold air through my mouth.

The method if followed correctly can be used by everyone, no matter what level their asthma is at, but the types of exercises used need to be chosen carefully for the severe asthma cases, as the book/dvd instructs.