Have read that there is no cure for afib just treatment. I am currently paroxsymal but am reading that afib tends to get progressively worse. I am wondering then if this is true have those of you with this gotten worse over time? Is there anyway to keep afib from going to the next stages?
Do you feel weak and tired if you have paroxsymal? The only meds I am on is a anticoagulant and hoping that is not the reason. Just started these about a week ago so possibly I am not used to them yet?
Thanks folks.
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watertender
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Hi and welcome. Sorry you are here but hope you find the threads on this forum useful.
There is no universal cure for AF because it is such a variable disease - some people have found treatments which work for them so many have found their AF burden, as it is known, is minimal or zero, unfortunately it sometimes has a habit of returning. Some find Lifestyle changes, moving to predominately plant based diet, appropriate exercise, medications work. Ablations work for many although often 2/3 are required. There is a surgical hybrid procedure which is becoming more available for those in persistent AF which quite a few people on this forum have had and been very happy with the results as no further AF episodes. Different treatments work for different people.
Untreated, AF is probably progressive for the majority of us but it’s not inevitable. You really need to see a specialist cardiologist called an Electrophysiologist or EP for short to have a full work up, diagnosis and advice on treatment plan which will depend upon your age, co-morbidities, general fitness level and Lifestyle. Adapting Lifestyle can in itself be a ‘cure’ for many.
I started with PAF probably about 20+ years ago but diagnosed in 2007. It was a rocky road until 2013/14 as I couldn’t tolerate the meds and so PAF progressed. Ablation gave me 3 years AF free but in 2017 it returned with a vengeance, although not quite as symptomatic. Having run out of usual options I went for Pacemaker with intention of having AV node ablated but the pacemaker eliminated AF so I went from being in AF for about 75% of the time to now 1-2%.
Read all you can about AF and treatments and suggest you start with the AFA website - link on the Pinned Post. There is also a helpline. You will also learn a lot from simply reading the threads and asking questions.
AF in its self makes you very tired and for some reason, Paroxysmal AF seems to be mor symptomatic for many people.
You are on anticoagulants to lessen your risk of stroke which is THE main risk factor for those of us with AF and first line treatment.
You will find this forum has members from all over the world and that protocols and accessible resources vary greatly, I am UK based and our healthcare system is very different from the US so your treatment options will will depend on your health insurance.
I was diagnosed with paroxysmal AF in Jan 2010 (aged65) , nearly 15 years ago now. During the first 3 months I did experience weakness and tiredness - but - put that down more to adjusting to the medication than to pAF . My medication in those days was Bisoprolol and Warfarin, I'm still on a beta blocker (Sotalol ) and Warfarin. Right at the beginning I rejected any notion of Ablation.
During the first 9 months or so ( I think ) I found food to be a trigger and at first it gave me odd symptoms, intestinal gurgling, diahorrea and burping - not all together, not all at once, but any which one purely at random! My GP cautiously had me checked for IBS and Coeliac Disease but all was clear. I then consulted a Nutritionist who advised me on a diet that wouldn't stir up the Vagal Nerve causing an inflammation there. the Vagal Nerve is like an information superhighway connecting brain, heart, and gut.
I was put on a newer anticoagulant at one time - Edoxaban. It gave me an upset gut so I abandoned it, went back to Warfarin and never even bothered trying other newer anticoagulants.
These daysI am hardly troubled by pAF, maybe get an event once every 4 or 5 years. All that said after the first 3 months I returned to work bus driving a job which I held, with regular annual medicals, until July 2024, aged 79.
One thing is for sure it is not written in tablets of granite that pAF will get worse. It is quite untrue. My own personal view is that AF is all things to all people BUT it certainly helps if you can get a quick and accurate diagnosis ... mine was around 9 hours from feeling unwell and being sent to hospital.
"One thing is for sure it is not written in tablets of granite that pAF will get worse. It is quite untrue."
Finally, someone who shares my idea! I did not dare to talk about it until now... If a person starts with real AF, with really high HR when having an attack, with ageing, during the time, this arrhythmia should tend to get milder, to stop and to get replaced with some other type of arrhythmias. The idea that it gets worse with the time is simply a prejudice, one of many that are being present around. Not ready to talk about details and, yes, I have no peer reviewed articles published...
Hi John - would you be prepared to share some details of your vagal diet? I am newly diagnosed but very conscious that certain foods seem to trigger palpitations and af. Thanks!
Yep, no problem. Give me a while to go through my files and I'll get back to you. Apologies in advance to those who may have seen my diet comments in past years.
Well, in the beginning (Jan 2010, aged 65) I had the symptoms of diahorrea, massive and painful bloating, intestinal gurgling and general burping. By far and away the worst and most likely to trip me into AF was the painful bloating. So, the inflated gut sent pain to the top left side of my chest.
I then consulted a Nutritionist who conducted some basic tests and recommended I go Gluten free and keep a food diary. This started a long process from April 2010 to September 2011. She also asked me to look at FODMAPS. I now eat very little fruit. Probably only bananas on a regular basis. If I ate according to the health mantra ‘eat 5 to 7 fruit and veg a day’ I’d have permanent occupancy of the bathroom. I should mention that I had been added salt free for decades. Anyway, arising from the food diary came a whole range of foods that I found upset my gut - so here we go - ( MUST STRESS ITS NOT JUST FOODS PER SE BUT THE INGREDIENTS, OFTEN HIDDEN AWAY IN THE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION).
So, out went Gluten, Wheat, Oats, Runner beans, Peas, soft cheeses ( but hard cheeses are OK), Onions ( but Spring Onions/Shallots are OK), Lettuce, Tomato, bread ( but I can tolerate bread made from sour dough), dried fruit ( raisens etc), Strawberries are OK but Raspberries are not, although once in a while in moderation I can tolerate them, then I decided to go added sugar free as well. As the months and years went on I discovered heaps of other food that would upset me - processed foods, a certain brand of chinese meals (packaged takeaway meals purchased from well known UK department stores or supermarkets, also UK not only draught pub beers, but also canned beers. Some breakfast cereals too. Many, but not all, bakery products too .... so here we come back to anything with gluten, wheat or oats in the ingredient list. Roast Pork crackling only as well as Roast Duck also come to mind. Yet .... bog standard, KFC is not an issue. Maccas too is OK as long as I stay away from any bread product.
I’ve become a dedicated food label reader I can tell you but every now and then I eat something which triggers my bloating, despite all my experience and care it still happens, I eat then I bloat and heart rate takes off.
So, from Sept 2011 through to April 2015 my AF subsided and eventually ceased. However, over the time since 2015 if I’m careless with food/diet I have lurched into AF about every 4 years or so. Never the less I still get palpitations/ ectopics for no particular reason. As a result I have had to return to consulting a Nutritionist who has prescribed me certain nutritional medication to aid my digestive system.
The link in all this is the Vagal Nerve, a nerve in the central nervous system which acts as an information superhighway between the brain, digestive system and heart (and many other organs). I do suggest you Google it and also Google the Vagal Nerve schematic diagram which shows how this nerve winds its way through the body.
I have to say this ........ I hold the view that it is a dysfunctional vagal nerve that is the cause of my AF. This view is not based on medical or scientific evidence but on anecdotal evidence only.
As time has gone on I have reflected on my otherwise healthy life from my mid 30’s I can now trace many digestive issues which have seen me need to follow some sort of food/diet plan as prescribed initially by the Dietician at Sydney Hospital, and at other different times tests at a local hospital when I lived in Sydney and when I lived in Melbourne for two years in the mid 1980’s, aged 40 ish. By the way, you can work out my age with year references, but I'm now 80.
So that's my AF journey for you. Apologies for it being so long winded, hope its of interest.
Thank you so much that's really interesting. I too find that my diet seems to have an impact on palpitations and possibly AF. I'm only at the beginning of the journey, but you're information is really helpful. Thank you for taking the time to share that. I'll let you know how I get on! Emma
Hi John, have you ever tried going properly gluten free? I take it you haven’t been tested for coeliac disease? My daughter is coeliac and once she took the diet seriously she found the tiniest bit of gluten hidden in food had painful consequences, well known up market restaurant served gluten free cottage pie but it soon became clear that the gravy sloshed over it was not! When we go to restaurants they sometimes ask if she is coeliac or gluten free, big difference and her meal comes with a labelled plate. I had the symptoms you describe when prescribed a PPI which seemed to result in food being rushed through my stomach and causing havoc later on.
Thanks. Just to cover your questions ....... Right at the beginning, probably late 2010 when I realised that my AF kicked off after eating my main meal of the day I had blood tests done to cover IBS and Coealiac Disease. Clear on both counts. Not had these tests ever since.
Then I consulted a Nutritionist who strongly suggested I go gluten free, wheat free and oats free .... again I did this.
However, I gradually, and I mean very slowly I returned to all the food stuff that were in my original late 2010 diet. This process actually started about 2015 ( from memory). The Nutritionist also taught me how to compile a food diary so that I could at least attempt to relate any side effects to food that I'd eaten ... this produced good results and over the following years I returned to a normal food intake. Mind you, there is some food stuff that I have no desire for anymore, like Yoghurt.
Even so, when we go out to dine even nowadays, we are selective with local resturants and I still go for the gluten free menu .... simply 'cos I don't know whats goin' on in the kitchen.
No I'm not on any PPI's. The only other thing is I take a capsule the label of which says Bioacidophilus ... aimed at assisting my digestive to work.
Thanks for sharing this. I have paroxysmal AF and I believe my gut triggers this in some way via what I eat in connection to the Vagal nerve. My a-fib episodes all occur after dinner or several hours after between 6pm and midnight. The severe episodes cause full body tremors. When I'm not in a-fib I get the burbing sometimes depending on what I eat and it causes discomfort in the upper body. Never had this before. I'm 58 now and for the first time, I now I hiccup just once and that's it. This can happen a few times a day. Seeing a nutritionist is excellent advice.. I'm scheduled for an ablation in March. I'm trying to do everything I can to avoid it.
I wish you well on your journey. I would recommend if you possibly can seeing a Nutritionist - sooner rather than later. I feel it would be beneficial to try and calm the gut before the ablation. The problem as I see it, after 15 years of messing about with gut and AF, is that Cardiologists seldom understand this (Vagal Nerve) relationship between brain, heart and gut ........... much better of talking to a Gasteroenterologist.
Nevertheless, a solid first step is the Nutritionist. Mind you it isn't a quick fix ......... will take time ... and you'll need dedication and patience. Its worth it though.
AF persistent is usually milder than being in sinus and then in AF. I have no symptoms except like you fatigue and lacking energy.
I blamed the BB Beta Blocker Metoprolol and now Bisoprolol.
I can now prove that some of it the med. It blocks adrenaline.
But also my BP was going low.
I had trouble picking up my ping pong ball and wanting 3-5 minutes to get my vision back.
I'm on Day 3 without Bisoprolol and my BP is low for me at 118/64. and 127/68.
I also take Diltiazem 120 CD AM for control of heart rate. I'll need to check tomorrow at 10 am 2 hours after taking it at 8am. Usually in 60s until late PM. I took Bisoprolol at Night.
NZ Heart Foundation Nurse said separate by 12 hours.
I'll wait until things settle. I may need to take 180mg CD Dilthiazem.
You need an ECHO to see about your heart structural and working. Cardioversion, ablation or anti-arrythmic meds are not for everyone.
I cannot have any of above as structural damage shows.
Meds are introduced first to see if control can be had from these.
As you have fatigue from AF meds should stop that if on the right route of meds.
Usually and I should say that different Blockers should be trialled. Beta Blockers did nothing for rapid heart rate control.
I say be very careful with CCB Diltiazem. I was introducted to 1/2 dose 180mg CD and within 2 hours mt H/R went from 156 on 5mg Bisoprolol as well to 51.
Bisoprolol was decreased to 2.5mg PM and later Diltiazem was decreased to 120mg CD AM.
Losing some weight 3kg my H./R settled at 60s Day. My Night Rate for me is 47avg bpm. Stable over 3 x 24 hr Heart Monitors.
The latter are important as they are honest in reporting exacting what the meds are doing.
Metroprolol 23.75 caused breathless 186 avg bpm (sweating profusely) and pauses at night. Changed to Bisoprolol 156 avg Day no breathless or pauses. A better one for AF. Both these are BB Beta Blockers. No control of heart rate which should be 100 or lower.
Unless operation is critical like my with Thyroid Cancer, anaesthetics will say No to operating.
I was advised to go private and did to the successful heart specialist.
He put me on CCB Calcium Channel Blocker Diltiazem. But if there is a problem with lower chambers Ventricles and valves Diltiazem cannot be prescribed.
If you have AF persistently there is no point going to an EP. Irregular Heat Beat is not the paramount solution but top of list is CONTROLLING rapid Heart Rate. Also getting BP hypertension controlled too although diltiazem has a joint role of both bP and Heart Rate it depends how much reqired with BP.
Be patient, wait fr the tests and try not to worry about the fatigue.
That's what they told me and cannot have them anyway because of structural damage.
Beyond other reasons mildly overweight, been having AF for too long 2 years3 months.
I still would only see a Heart Specialist to direct the many tests ECHO, ECG, 24hr monitor to get true numbers of heart rate when etc. and patient reporting amy symptoms.
I haven't had BB now for 5 days and. I feel so much improved. No real fatigue and no nore 1/2 vertigo when I. close my eyes.
A further blood test after drinking 3 glasses of water!
i’m now in permanent AF are used to have boats of PAF during the PAF I was exhausted could barely move now I’m I am tired all the with the medical they consider it isn’t the medication but the AF that’s causing the tiredness. I find that I have to keep active to stop the tiredness I don’t but I do try and keep as active as possible when I stop. I fall asleep not the best of ways to live but there are worse.
hi I have PAF . 3 episodes so far average two years apart . Very symptomatic 184 bpm with rvr lasting 24 hours. I feel wiped out for a couple of weeks after an episode . Only on DOAC . I am very careful to do my best to avoid triggers, no alcohol no chocolate and virtually no cake( small slice of homemade cake every couple of months) so virtually no sugar, no msg etc etc etc . Waiting for ablation and expect the wait to be at least 18 months. My first episode was caused by an anti inflammatory, second one by overindulging sweet stuff at Christmas, third one by hill walking . Basically when I discover a new trigger . On the plus side I won’t be putting on any weight this Christmas . Oh and I drink decaf coffee and tea obviously
Can I ask what meds you are on? I was diagnosed with PAF last December. I had completely overdone things while helping my daughter with my first grandchild. I hadn't had an episode since July (they last anywhere from 30mins to 2hrs). I am not on meds yet (sotalol is suggested by cardiologist). I am aware of some triggers and am trying lfestyle changes before I start meds, along with heart health supplements such as Magnesium taurate, ubiquinol, nattokinase, quercetin and bromelain, vit c, and vit d plus k2. But I'm always aware of my heart now. Very nervous about the meds because of the side effects I've read about.
I only take Edoxaban . Because my episodes are currently so infrequent I refused to take meds everyday . I have low blood pressure and a resting heart rate of around 60. I seem to get side effects from most things so avoid meds where possible . The doctors try and dish out the same meds to everyone as per protocol without paying too much attention to individual circumstances . Yes I am afraid I am always very aware of my heart now , the plus side of that is it keeps me on the straight and narrow in terms of lifestyle . Congratulations on your grand baby
I also take magnesium citrate , fish oil , Vit D
(Yes I know about fish oil and DOACS but I have taken it for decades and doesn’t seem to cause a problem )
Thanks for your reply. I relate to you not wanting to take meds. I also react very quickly to any type of med. Also lowish bp and heart rate in the 60's. The cardiologist in the hospital was pretty flippant with me and barely explained what was going on (I knew norhing about afib at that stage - just thought it was tacchycadia). I live in New Zealand. He said there were new meds overseas, but NZ doesn't have them funded here. Interesting what you said about fish oil. I had bought some andc then read about them and didn't take them. I do eat salmon once a week. Thank you for your congrats - I had a grandson born in December and a granddaughter born in March, so definitely want to keep well for them 😊
I know . When I went to hospital the first time I received no advice, never did on management from any medic I met . It’s up to you to find out or just do as you are told .
Apart from magnesium and making sure your other electrolytes are in range am not sure supplements work miracles . I just try steady as she goes , moderation in all things , try not to overdo
I hurt my back. and was given prescription anti inflammatory Celecoxib . I took half the prescribed dose day one. Great painkiller. Again second day did the same. That night went into AF. In a minority of susceptible individuals it interferes the potassium channels in the heart and triggers AF. Turns out I was one of the susceptible individuals
It is correct to say there is no permanent cure for AFib. My EP,highly respected, told me that. CD has summarised most of the points I would have made,but Id like to add this,AF is not life threatening in itself ,although untreated high rates can raise problems. When we are first diagnosed it can be a scary time and getting ' our heads around' it can be challenging,and stressful. This may explain your physicsl feelings at the moment.
Anticoagulants are not linked to tiredness or weakness.
Ways forward include lifestyle,medication as appropriate, interventions such as ablation and pulse field ablation.
I like to think I have a condition that doesn't define me and think of it as an inconvenience! I was very symptomatic towards the time I had my ablation which made that harder to stick to 😄
The best people to talk to are Electrophysiologists xx
You will find everyone is different. I have had Afib for many years but work at underlying causes.
I recently joined Dr. William Davis's infinite health forum, he has a lot of info on Afib as he is a cardiologist. I am of the idea that one can minimize Afib. Currently, I discovered Fish oil set me off. Yet, many suggest that fish oil is needed for healthy heart.
What is missing from fish oil is Taurine an amino acid. My next question I am looking for an answer is does adding in taurine mean I can take fish oil? I don't know, because I am enjoying being Afib free for right now.
Now Dr.Davis is of the thinking that AF is caused by eating too many grains and sugar which creates something called SIBO or SIFO. that is small intestinal bacteria overgrowth or fungal overgrowth. Weather that is true or not I don't know, but it is something I am exploring.
Afib is a wake up call in my opinion, like any other health crisis one may encounter. it won't hurt to explore life style changes that may help. However, those are different for everyone.
I used to have a good supply for Magnesium but that went away. Again Dr. Davis suggests that mineral is very important to replace if one has had a lifetime of eating grains. it may take years to replenish cellular magnesium at levels we need. I know for me if I don't get enough Magnesium I get muscle cramps in my calfs. which started happening again even taking it in pill form, which tells me I am not absorbing it very well. I started making the recipe that dr. Davis suggests which is adding 3 tablespoons to a liter of Selzter water and 1 tablespoons of any extract flavor I used vanilla. You do have to remove a little of the water before adding the Milk of Magnesia, non flavored to the seltzer water. I just started using that. You take half a cup of that 3 times a day. Increase to 3/4 a cup 3 times a day. We will see how that goes. He claims that amount is what we need for Afib and it is easily absorbed.
I read that fish oil could cause afib. I take Cardiovascular Research magnesium taurate - heard it was best for the heart. I also take ubiquinol (which is a property of CoQ10), good for the heart.
There is plenty of conflicting advice on fish oil. In the end we have to figure out what is best for ourselves. I agree with you on the taurate and ubiquinol. I take that also.
I take both L taurine 1000mg and CoQ10 100mg, at a low dose (every other day). I find if I take every single day I get minor headaches and minor stomach cramps..
For a start to help reduce your AF attacks I would recommend cutting all artificial additives out of your diet. Artificial sweeteners were a sure trigger for my AF attacks, unfortunately I didn't find that out until I'd had several ablations. Also eat magnesium rich foods
I had parox asymptomatic a fib from about 2021 .Had a stroke July 24 and went into persistent... since July 24 my a fib has improved so that now it only happens several times per month. I cut down on alcohol and with came weight loss. Also taking magnesium and taurine and l-arginine which seems to have helped. I'm on bisop and elquis which I don't mind but the fact that a fib burden is improving gives me extra confidence. Everyone is different so the fact that ieople say that it's incurable and gets worse should be treated with caution. I got an echogram as well... no structural problems.
Are you able to take the supplements everyday? I take l taurine and CoQ10 every other day. I tried l arginine, but was not able to take as it would give me bad stomach cramps. Unfortunately.
Ps. I was on ppi's for years and gave them up earlier this year as apparently they interfere with the absorption of magnesium... something that is never mentioned
If you can figure out what triggers your aFib and stop doing or eating it, that would lessen the AF burden. Might be particular foods or too much food, or over-exercising and/or stress. If you are overweight and don't exercise, then deal with that and your aFib will improve. I was in the overweight/ not enough exercise category, changed all that, and now my AF episodes are very rare. You might also talk to an EP about an ablation, that is a minor operation to obliterate particular cells in the heart that are misfiring and causing AF, and is often a long-lasting fix.
I am not symptomatic during episodes, as I generally have a pretty low overall average heart rate during episodes. I do get that monkeys-fighting-in-my chest sensation and anxiety,
I can't take anti-coagulants-apixaban caused intense itching, which is apparently a very rare reaction to it, and have kidney issues, but since you just started on it recently, its possible you are reacting to it.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could experience AF and feel a surge of happy that its not one of the many mortal, painful diseases?
I had a very successful ablation at PapworthTildiem seems to be good for me. I have had no problems from AF since. This seems to be unusual, as many AF patients have mutiple ablations with varying success. I wish you the best for the future.
Welcome to the Forum and I am so pleased so many members have already welcomed you with words of wisdom based upon their own experiences, there really is no better advice than those in a similar situation as yourself. If you would like any support or advice from the Patient Services Team, please contact heartrhythmalliance.org/afa.... You will also find a wealth of information available on the AF Association webpage: heartrhythmalliance.org/afa...
I'm also new to afib. I'm not new to heart issues as I had a heart attack last year then developed a first degree block, then had my betablockers reduced, then had an episode of high irregular heart rate for 1 hour, followed by 14 hours of irregular heart beats in the 60 to 70 bpm range.
The doctor at hospital said it was an episode of afib and gave me blood thinners and increased my dosage of betablockers.
This was around 3 weeks ago and I'm awaiting an appointment with the arrhythmia clinic.
I've continued to excericse ( weights, walking) but stopped rowing as this takes me to a heart rate zone where my watch says I have afib symptoms. I don't know whether to trust the watch or not but that's another story.
Other then that I've not had a afib episode , I still enjoy my beer ( within the allowed units), I still eat spicy food ( I'm asian) , I still enjoy excericse.
I was told all the above ( bar excericse)would be afib triggers so DONT TO THEM but so far I haven't found this to be true for me.
I agree with what some of the others have said , afib is different to different people and we can't all assume we will go down the same path.
I will see how my journey goes , not sure if anything i said was meaningful but I hope you get your afib pinned down/ managed.
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