Hi all.Ive come across a recent publication out of Sweden (Karolinska Institutet), published in the last week, saying that the heart has a complex collection of neurons that amounts to what they term a "mini brain" capable of acting independently of our brains, involved in amongst other things, rhythm control.
Google it (I can't paste the link).
This has got me thinking, the ablation procedure is a pretty blunt instrument (and I've had 2 ablations, a cryo and a RF).
I reckon within a couple of decades medical scientists are going to look back and cringe when they refer to ablations. Medical science, I'm sure, will come up with far better treatments for AF, once they have a better understanding of the complexity of our heart function.
Food for thought eh?
Cheers Blake
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KiwiBlake
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"This has got me thinking, the ablation procedure is a pretty blunt instrument."
Hi, KiwiBlake! Couldn't agree more. I never had ablation and hope I never will.
But thinking of it makes me see that it is a pretty desperate intervention, where the MDs are trying to fix the problem which they hardly understand enough. The behavior of the heart, when in AF, looks like the behavior of the chicken when its head gets chopped off - the cells which are not meant for it, start generating uncontrolled impulses which give a pretty uncontrolled way of heart movements (jumping all around in the chest).
If, during the ablation, the identified foci get burned down, very often the new foci start being active in the future (literally, every "normal" cell can start generating electric signals, because the situation is exceptional), so no wonder that there are often recurences of AF. People have had up to ... 8 ablations (extreme), with very varying results...
Looking from the side, it looks like it is necessary to very seriously damage the inside of the atria as to reach the goal. Hence, the repeated ablations could still be "the right way" - with burning "little by little".
I’ve had 2 ablations as I believed that ablation was the better of the two (then) existing choice of treatments options, the alternative taking meds which to me were poison so the choice of treatments is really between which harm would I prefer to suck up? Surgery is always brutal but sometimes necessary to preserve or enhance life and sometimes the best we have so I don’t regret my decision but do hope for less invasive and harmful treatments.
I agree that we are still in the dark ages for not only AF treatments but many diseases. I also believe in the old adages which science is only just starting to accept - follow your heart but trust your gut. The heart’s communication route with brain is vagus nerve whereas gut/brain axis has two way communication also through vagus but also through other systems such as endocrine systems. This I believe is why so many of our illness is caused by chronic stress. Our nervous system was built for acute, life threatening stress but today we live in an ever increasing sunami of stress, poor nutrition and sleep deprivation. The big emerging revelation is how the gut flora (microbes) actually controls us really, so change the gut microbes and you change mood, immune system, development and maybe even the world - imagine if you could stop wars by feeding the right microbes to the antagonists (fantasy - maybe?).
I think also a that unbalanced gut flora a reason why so many people with IBS and gastrointestinal problems, also have AF.
I am encouraged that the very latest research is showing that balanced nutrition and Lifestyle can not only prevent many of diseases, including AF, but reverse them - have we listened - it seems not! My main beef is that because of growth of specialism and focus on career development many medics are not always well informed or on recent research or resourced to implement so that even when we hear of what sounds like breakthroughs we know we will not benefit because of politics or lack of resources or beaurocracy for decades.
Well now I feel better for voicing those thoughts and getting them off my chest and my gut is telling me to get moving as feels empty so wants something to munch, my heart is calm after a really good night’s sleep and settled as I focus on my daily breathing practice before jumping onto my LIV machine (for the osteoporosis) before doing the chores prior to going to Tai Chi.
This the best I’ve got so going to make the most of it.
I think the medical profession needs to put more emphasis of the benefits of both prebiotic and probiotics on gut health and the follow on impact on our health.
The idea of heart being mini brain, with direct and complex links between heart and brain, has been around for a few years. In younger years when I experienced palpitations following open heart surgery I could more or less think myself into a state of flutter and speedy HR - it was weird. When prescribed beta blockers for “panic attacks” just knowing the pills were to hand was sometimes all I needed to get quickly back to normal heartbeat.
Most of us have experienced how controlled deep breathing and relaxation techniques slow the heart rate and when we’re stressed nothing works! But there was no way my brain could intervene with persistent AF to make it stop. Hence I put faith in my good EP to carry out an ablation and have absolutely no regrets.
I have had times where I have awoken to a racing heart, which can then progress to AF. What I have learnt is that if I remain calm and not panic, but instead kept my mind thinking rationally, and breathing techniques I can get my heart beat to slow back down to normal rate and remain in NSR. If AF does develop I then just have to take PIP Flec and ride it out.
I think around 2008 maybe 9 I gave a talk at Patients Day about my experiences and compared the treatment of AF with the history of aviation, I offered the first abation as comparaable to the Wright Brother's first powered flight at Kittyhawk and suggested that we were then level with the end of the first world war with powerful biplanes capable of both flying and fighting. I would suggest that we are currently around 1942 but the jet is not yet a viable engine and the sound barrier still a distant goal. Just maybe PFA is the Gloster Whittle E39? (first jet powered aircraft for those who don't know).
I think the "pilot" who did my first ablation, who looked very young and fresh out of med school had only just got his "wings". The 2nd time around, the EP I had had grey hair, and I think he had flown a lot more of an "Ace pilot" who had ernt his stripes.
Of course. Because they've said no to me when I considered them as what it involved.
Reason given that I had structural abnormality.
What does that say. To me that says we won't risk doing this or any procedure on an unhealthy heart.
Luckily my main med is CCB Calcium Channel Blocker Diltiazem CD for a drastic control of my rapid heart rate. Bisoprolol 10mg @ 156 bpm Day down to 51 on CCB.
I take 1.25mg Bisoprolol but stopping that too as my BP has gone low.
They will better advance on how to stop rogue electrical responses. At the moment scarring can sometimes help stop these.
Barbaric some might say. I read am article that doing these causes them to get high doses of radiation and they should wear a heavy apron. This causes another problem.
That is sad. But if you went to Radio Active the film and understand what happened to Marie Curie, her pregnancies and her husband. 1 child survived I understand.
Yes paid out $3105.00 for panelbeating. Moisture getting in at the top betwee high to and metal. Windscreen and window rust patch.
Oh well I haven't over 11 Years not paid out much on motor etc. 200,000 km check cost me $2000.
My great grand chilren's parents have gone walkabouts. Now at Morrinsville. Getting closer to Gisbourne but no dogs until 8 February. Although our NZMCA site is available but I like a bit of shade.
Da3 of no Bisoprolol. Now vertigo well 1/2 gone.
Another blood test after drinking 3 cups water. No blood in left arm and got blood in right arm.
So dependent only on CCB Diltiazem 120mg CD AM. I can raise it to 180mg if I see BP not controlled well but ECG with 1/2 x 2.5 Biso... OK.
We need happy place in 2025.
Awaiting a elbow brace to allow elbow to heal.
Relax and enjoy leading up to 2025. I wonder what your 2025 resolution will be Nlake?
I see where you are coming from, I believe at this moment in time an ablation is the best tool in the toolbox. Its just a pity that we have to remove the errant musicians just for playing out of tune, or from playing from the wrong song book.
Definitely food for thought. Hundreds of thousands of neurons is my understanding and they send messages upstream to the brain. And similar to our gut brain in this regard My personal theory is that this is one of the reasons why we can feel so disturbed Arrythmia even if we know it's usually not life threatening. Could you give us the full title of the paper perhaps? I'd like to read it.
My issue was different and somewhat more complex. There was an unknown factor that could not have been anticipated as completely outside the range of EP’s range of competence. - Bisoprolol, Flecainide, sedation drugs and antibiotics administered prior to, during and following ablation exacerbated a latent condition which I found much more incapacitating than AF. It took me over 6 months to get a diagnosis of Myasthenia gravis. I was originally cleared for Flecainide use back in 2008 by cardiology by my then EP when I was taking 200mg daily which I appeared to tolerate quite well but couldn’t tolerate Bisoprolol. I developed AFlutter around 2013 and started to show signs of long QRS 2014, not caused by BBB. I had no history or indication of any other heart disease structurally or CVD.
I also suspect that there is a gender difference in how men and women metabolise medications which is often not considered as most of the early trials of many drugs used in cardiology were all male. It is only in recent years been acknowledged that there are essential differences experienced by women for symptoms of heart attacks but also arrhythmias.
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Heart failure
Mini Maze Procedures, there is a place for all, my personal view
Heart Scarring
Your heart remembers everything
Ablation, here I come :)
