I bought one of the Wellue 24-hour AI ECG monitors a while back after warm recommendations on this forum. I noticed today a full review of it from the highly respected American cardiologist, "The Skeptical Cardiologist", had been published. Some of you might find it interesting to read.
The Wellue device has proven itself over the many months I have used it, so much so, that I also bought their small handheld monitor and sold my Kardia, which was costing me £10.00 a month or so for their so-called "Advanced Determinations". The Wellue app offers a much more complete AI analysis which is included in the initial price of either device, so there's no ongoing fees. Both are available from Amazon, but I got a big discount by buying direct and, even though it came from China, delivery was within days. I still do like the Kardia for its neat design and excellent app but, as an overall package, and for value, I think the Wellue products are currently unsurpassed for home use.
I think for well informed, ekg savvy snd technically minded individuals the Wellue is a great device. And while I don't have one, I have considered getting one, however it would be an addition and not a replacement for my Kardia 6L which is medical grade and FDA approved, neither of which the Wellue are And for the advanced termination function, which I find invaluable and well worth the modest monthly fee.
Keep in mind this review was not by the skeptical cardiologist, but by another user who is a physician. Someone who is capable of reading and interpreting their own ekgs when the Wellue made a mistake, which, apparently it does a lot in distinguishing arrhythmias
From the review...
The skeptical cardiologist wants to emphasize that this review was written by a physician-user who has the capability of interpreting his own ECGs. Thus, when the Wellue AI diagnosed ventricular tachycardia he could recognize that it was being fooled by artifact. Such inaccuracies in my experience are common with non-FDA approved personal ECG monitors.
Yes, that's a fair appraisal and comment - thank you. Out of interest, my own Kardia also twice reported that I had AF when my cardiologist assured me what I was experiencing were multiple ectopic beats, so I came to doubt the Kardia. Interestingly my Apple Watch, also FDA approved, has never put a foot wrong regarding determining when AF is present. The lack of FDA and NICE approval, though, does set the Wellue device apart from the Kardia and Apple, it is true, but I am not at all sure that that makes any practical difference since none of them are truly "medical grade", whatever the blurb would have us believe.
The added benefit, and it's a very real one, of the Wellue devices, is that, as well as hand-held use, they both also allow the use of chest electrodes, with the 24-hour device allowing reading from 5 minutes up to a whole day and, of course, overnight. This is less convenient, it is true, but it is something I do when I want a longer trace to show my GP. The resulting ECG is near noise free when this is done and my own GP thinks it very useful and was astonished at the resultant ECG trace. The Kardia trace is ultra-smoothed by their software so only appears to be noise-free. In reality, there is a mass of noise as is to be expected from finger tip use.
Overall, if I had uncomplicated PAF, I think I would use an Apple Watch; if I didn't use Apple products, my next choice would be a Kardia 6L (which I feel is the much better of their two devices, owing to its solid Bluetooth connectivity). However, my AF is sporadic and much more common are ectopic beats which the Wellue differentiates really well. I also have LBBB which causes a wide QRS, which, again, the Wellue measures accurately.
In terms of ease of use, the smaller Wellue is similar to the Kardia and, also using Bluetooth, connects easily to their app on a mobile phone. The Wellue has a rechargeable lithium battery, too, which the Kardia does not (and it's fiddle to replace, requiring a jeweller's screwdriver). The Kardia 6L is, however, a very beautifully designed and superbly constructed product in comparison to the more "plasticky" Wellue.
Kardia also twice reported that I had AF when my cardiologist assured me what I was experiencing were multiple ectopic beats,
None of these devices are perfect, but curious if the Kardia said "possible atrial fibrillation " or "atrial fibrillation"? Because none of these algorithms are perfect. Even the ones on a cardios 12 lead. so "possible afib" simply means the possibility exists according to the EKG and you should show it to an EP for a human evaluation.
I have both the Apple Watch and the Kardia 6L. Love them both but if I had a trust one for EKG accuracy, it would definitely be the Kardia.
Hi, I saw the same behaviour in the Kardiamobile too. If there are a number of ectopic beats (4+) within a single trace, it usually reports a determination of ‘possible atrial fibrillation’ or an ‘unclassified’. The ectopics are usually easily identifiable on a trace and I’d then take that into consideration when I am trying to figure out what is going on.
I am pretty confident with the output of the device and taking the above into consideration, it’s always been accurate in identifying Afib.
The device doesn’t have a determination of ‘atrial fibrillation’, only ‘possible atrial fibrillation’.
I try to look for the lack of a "P" wave, but a noisy graph can make this slight bump difficult to see. Kardia does report "Atrial Fibrillation", by the way - see the attached image.
Interesting, is this with the Advanced Determinations subscription service? I’ve never seen that determination with the default software (running on iPad).
I look for the P wave too, agree can be tricky to see sometimes. To reduce noise, I always try to (1) achieve good device contact (not dry), (2) remove static inducing clothing.
The Apple Watch wins out for convenience as it is such a very useful all-round device which is always on the wrist so can be used overnight as well for irregular heartbeat determinations that are suggestive of AF, otherwise I would say from my experience of both that they are equally accurate.
The Apple Watch can be occasionally more easily affected by sweaty skin or something like that and once in a while won't produce a good trace and needs removing from the wrist cleaning and the wrist washing. Also, my own Watch occasionally reports what it calls a "Poor Signal" when it is just a trace with multiple ectopic beats when my heart is especially crazy. The Kardia never did this, but one thing I found was that it did smooth out the trace a very great deal to remove the electrical noise. This is maybe inherent in a device that relies on fingertip contacts. The only device available for home use that offers chest and wrist electrodes for a noise-free reading is made by Wellue, which I eventually switched to.
Hi again, Jim. It did report the arrhythmia as "atrial fibrillation". I seem to recall the "Skeptical Cardiologist" guy writing about just this possibility.
I've had that happen as well, but recognized it as ectopics so disregarded Kardia's determination. But as mentioned before, none of the automatic determinations are as good as a human determination, and that includes the automatic determination 12 lead in your cardiologist office. That said, there are a number of ep's who will look at a string of ectopics and call it a short run of afib. Go figure. At the end of the day a lot of these calls are subjective and the body itself doesn't care what you call it, it just marches to its own rhythm which unfortunately for many of us isn't always normal.😄
Well said, it does. I’ve come to realise that electro-cardiology is an imprecise and very much developing body of knowledge. The fact that the heart is well hidden behind so much bone and tissue doesn’t help, either. Add to that, that doctors can’t find out the root cause of arrhythmias and it’s no wonder we are left in the dark with them. The difference being that they doing care but we do.
I have the wellue device I've had it about 6 months and use it a lot it is a small device that I put just under the collarbone left side it stays on with sticky electrodes for 24 hour readings at the end I upload the data and it tells me all the different things my hearts been doing usually total beats ,afib ,PVCs etc.I can trace the burden of many PVCS on my total heartbeats they are about 11% at present.
I have the Kardia the fitness watch and the wellue I feel that I know what's going on so personally I say it's a YES from me
I've never understood why people spend good money on such things. It's how you feel which matters. The Kardia is useful as a diagnostic tool for Clinicians to identify who has asymptomatic AF. I feel people get quite obsessed about finding out if they've had an episode while they're asleep, and there's those who wish to have every fluctuation explained.
What matters is how you feel, not what some gadget is telling you.
I understand your feelings, but I tend to think you should feel very lucky that your mind rests easily in that way. Mine certainly doesn't and it requires the kind of knowledge and reassurance that only a doctor can give. When I can't or won't ask a doctor, which of course in 99% of the time, I find my trusty ECG monitor a good "stand in".
I have a close friend, now 90 and with permanent AF, who seems similar to you and is much more stoical than I am regarding health. Mind you, when he had covid last year (caught from me, sadly), he showed much less stoicism than I did, so these feelings can clearly vary a great deal.
I don't myself think these things are a matter of "obsession", or even of personal "strength" and "weakness" as my friend can easily imply with his statements such as, "I just don't let these things get at me". It's just the way we are and down to our genes, I suppose.
Thanks for your reasoned explanation. I'm 78, and like your friend have permanent though asymptomatic AF. It doesn't concern me, but I ensure that I take my anticoagulant daily.
He is like you with no symptoms (well, an incline makes him puff a bit, but his mitral valve leaks slightly, too). His permanent AF seemed to arrive unheralded with no previous PAF, although other symptoms he has had for many years and which he has always put down to a quirk of his liver, might well have been AF, I have always thought, rather than the virus or too much fat, or whatever, that he blamed.
Well in my case Thomas45 spending good money helped me diagnose that flecainide was causing more issues than it was solving, money very well spent IMHO. Especially when all the consultants were telling me it was "just Afib" and "everything was normal". If you have permanent asumptomatic AF then I agree with you, if you have episodes coming and going and are trying to work out how to prevent/reduce those episodes then these tools are handy. Also useful to know when to take a PIP as well.
Each to his own though, and whatever works for the individual.
I'm now in my 7th year of Permanent Asymptomatic AF, which followed 22 years of Paroxysmal AF, the first 9 being undiagnosed - well the GP, at the time, told me "if it only happens once or twice a year, don't worry about it"!
I was never treated with PIP, but with Amiodarone for a year, followed by 2 years of up to 200mg of Flecanide daily, followed by 12 years of 300mg daily. I had very few episodes during those 10 years, less than one a year. I was then found to be in persistent AF. As for PIP I woud take it when you can actually feel the AF.
You seem to have looked after yourself well, Thomas. Since starting daily bisoprolol last March my AF has been kept at bay (well - is it the tablet or just the nature of AF?); ectopics are a daily event, however, although they wax and wane.
It is hard to get a fair hearing from doctors about AF and heart complaints in general. When I was told that I also has "left bundle branch block" for example, I was told it was of no concern and should never trouble me. Now, however, if I speak to my doctor about my frequent palpitations, he tells me "Well, you know what it is, it's your LBBB".
That's maybe 25% of the heart beats. Well, that seems a heck of a lot. I did see a specialist once who told me he had thousands daily and expected to live to a ripe old age, I recall! What do your doctors say?
So when I got to see a cardiologist, I gave him a detailed health sheet, of my health for the last 12 months. He was impressed, and he could see area's that needed some sort of treatment. Didn't get an answer why I had 8000 pac(premature supraventricular contraction), but the medication, bisoprolol solved this problem.
Medication had to be adjusted, through my doctor, so asked him, what could cause such a high reading of PAC. No direct answer, but could be down to adrenaline, which bisoprolol cut down
I've never understood why people spend good money on such things. It's how you feel which matters.
Except there are different types of arrhythmias and they may feel similar. And each type may require a different treatment, including a different PIP treatment. And very difficult, if not impossible to tell one from another without an EKG. Not to mention trying to explain your symptoms to an electrophysiologist, and have him come up with an action plan without an EKG to look at.
A device like the Kardia does all that plus for many of us it gives us peace of mind where knowledge can be more assuring than uncertainty.
It may not be right for you, but it certainly is for many, including myself.
I can get a ECG at my local medical centre. The first GP to take an interest in my AF told me to go to A&E next time it happened, which I did, and they could see the ECG there. The last time I had an ECG was last month in an ambulance at 4am one morning, due to shortness of breath. I couldn't speak in sentences. They were telling me my heart was all over the place, which is normal for me, but I couldn't easily speak. (I also have chronic asthma). Although I carry a sheet with all my medical conditions, on that occasion a wrist band would have been useful to point to, so I shall order a new one today.
My shortness of breath, due to a reaction to stale tobacco smoke on the clothes of a visitor the previous evening, was soon sorted at A&E.
Isn't it odd what can spark things off? In the early days I used to find I got oddly puffed out just speaking. It wasn't really a shortness of breath but something akin to that, and it sent my anxiety up (but it doesn't take much to do that).
I bought my Wellue ECG monitor last Apr, and it more than proved it worth. Now had to make my doctor aware and show him some ECG readings. To check comparison, we did a treadmill ECG TEST, and kept my personal monitor on. Comparison wise, both ECG's were a 95% match, so from that day on, I could send a rough detail for the month.
While seated my heart rate was going up to around 150 bpm, and I was having difficulty in breathing. I was put on to Bisoprolol mainly for Angina, tachycardia rhythms, which solved most of my problems
Dec had my Angiogram done which came back clear, but with some hardening of arteries, so removed from bisoprolol. A few weeks later, Im now getting tachycardia rhythms, and my Wellue ECG has recorded all of them, so now waiting to find out the cause
Hardening is caused by calcium deposits, I gather, and is something everyone gets to some degree. Only a cardiologist can work out how important it is and what to do about it so I hope you get that kind of treatment. The way our NHS is these days makes me wonder just where we will end up though!
Which version of the "small handheld monitor" did you purchase. Does the resultant ECG show as much detail as when using the patches in the Wellue 24-hour AI ECG Monitor and how does it compare with the Kardia 6L?
I am interested in a portable monitor(without patches) that can consistently show accurate p-waves on the ECG recording. I currently own a Kardia 6L, EMay 6L, and Fitbit Charge 6. So far, the Kardia does the best in showing p-waves. I'm wondering whether the handheld Wellue can do better. Thank you.
The device is a Pulsebit EX (Model 1452) which has a quite large and very clear OLED screen, and offers AI analysis from its mobile phone app (there's also a laptop programme but currently without AI). Various manipulations of the ECG are available within the app to alter the amplitude, etc, enabling more detail. The images (on other posts, too) are from today.
I would think that no handheld device can offer the kind of clarity ECG gel electrodes can offer owing to the noise generated by the relatively poor quality finger contact electrodes. The Wellue, unusually, includes gel electrodes which allow its use for an extended period of 5 minutes.
For its current price, I think this device offers unparalleled value for money. However, a point of note, for anyone with a "wide QRS" caused by, for example a bundle block (as I have), it can throw up wrong reports of ventricular tachycardia which are, in reality atrial aberrant beats, I have been told by my cardiologist. Interestingly, I changed from the Kardia 6L in part because it, too, failed me (despite the tenner a month!!) and showed "NSR with Wide QRS", when I could clearly see that the trace was full of ectopic beats. Perhaps that is a better description than VT, but my doctor did agree that the Wellue AI analysis was, presumably, either fooled or erring on the side of caution. The Apple Watch sometimes shows "Poor Signal", presumably for similar reasons. There is an in-depth and very positive review of the 24-hour Wellue on the "Skeptical Cardiologist" website which covers this aspect, too.
And, finally (I can only include one image per post), an older Kardia "Advanced Determinations" recording (which you have your own versions of, of course).
Thank you for your informative reply and detailed images. I will order a Wellue to add to my collection of ECG devices. It looks like it can pick up p-waves on the ECG and is a good complement to the Kardia 6L.
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