Wondering if anyone has noticed an association between a strained neck and afib episodes. And if so, have you had any success with self treatment or by a professional? Been a trigger of mine for some time now.
Jim
Strained/sore neck as an afib trigger? - Atrial Fibrillati...
Strained/sore neck as an afib trigger?
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mjames1
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Me Jim. I'm actually going to an osteopath at moment. Although she wants me scanned for possible ms. My AF is nearly every day now. Ever since I've had bad neck pain and tension. Also neck worse when in AF with nerve spasm.
Let me know how it works out. My current run of tachy arrhythmia's started 4 years ago after riding a sport bike I hadn't been on for a bit. I think a combo of the neck position Ithink horse jockey) and weight if the helmet.
2 X hour's and 100 pounds lighter no luck so far.
For a second I thought you lost an amazing amount of weight, but then I realized you're from the UK 
Hopefully, there will be some progress.
BobDVolunteer
Have you tried Bowen Jim?
Thanks Bob. Have tried different types of bodywork and exercises but not as focused and consistent as I should have been. Just takes one thing for this aged neck to get angry. Had to sell my favorite sport bike because of it.
Jim
My Bowen practitioner has been brilliant over the years sorting out sciatica and also calming the vagus nerve but sadly not all are as good.
Bowen is just very small movements of muscle groups, often far away from the pain site. May need a couple of treatments and strangely one always feels worse a few days after the first but never failed to sort me out after max three treatments.
I don't need Regan's neck flexibility per "The Exorcists" but it would be nice to be able to turn it a bit more. Might even buy my bike back! In part, probably age related arthritis. Can Bowen deal with that as well, or just the muscles?
Can’t beat a bit of bully 😁. Sorry Bob couldn’t resist 😉
Lol
I wonder if the stress of having a sore neck causes you to breathe differently - perhaps too shallow breaths which will allow the AF in? I've had backache and all that flows from it all my adult life and the only relief I've had was chiropractic - especially the rather scary neck cracking maneouvre! Just a thought which may help.
Hi Jim,
Not a strained neck as such but I can see why it could be a trigger. I have a scoliosis and a degree of hyperkyphosis affecting my mid-thoracic and upper spine. Had it for many years and always had back pain/ discomfort that has got worse as I’ve got older ( the joys🙄) It was particularly troublesome just before I slipped into the persistent AF I’m in now. When I saw the NHS cardio last October he said that they are beginning to become more aware of the link between spine problems and AF but didn’t elaborate.
I suppose it makes sense really, when you consider AF is a problem of nerve conduction, rather than heart disease and those nerves have to pass through the spine at some point.
Interestingly, I’ve found that massage on specific areas of my thoracic spine will slow my heart rate, whereas pressure, from a badly shaped chair back etc will cause my heart to react because the nerve supply is being compressed perhaps. Unfortunately, my underlying structural issues mean that the effects of massage are short-lived on me.
Apologies for the essay😊
TC
Like the "essay". Good stuff! I just fired up my hydroculator that has been collecting dust. Time to get my neck loosened up. Had my first prolonged afib episode in a year last night (7 hours). Fortunately the PIP Flecainide finally kicked in. Probably time to up my daily flecainide dose while I wait to be scheduled for an ablation.
Jim
Hi Threecats and anybody else who has contributed to this potential link between misalignment in the spine, neck problems and AF. Having had just 3 x 6 - 7 hour events of AF with AF free months in between, I went into more or less permanent AF 2 weeks into November 22. At the end of October 22, I had a bad reaction to the Covid booster. Poor injection technique has caused muscle and tendon problems in that arm. I have suffered since then with elevations in BP for no apparent reason, severe neck and shoulder pain, seeing bright lights when I cough and for 2 months, head rushes when turning over in bed. I am undergoing physiotherapy to re-train the muscles which is helping. Trust me when I say it has been severe! I also had back pain on occasions, at the same time. I feel there might be some merit in linking AF and neck / spine misalignment because I have been told by the cardiologist that I have a healthy heart. So something must be triggering the AF. I've been through the whole list of things that can cause it including lifestyle, stress, even medication etc., Anybody else had a poorly delivered covid jab with similar consequences?
Hi Jim
Many years ago I went to a chiropractor re dreadful pain in my neck. I'd tried everything, different osteopaths, even had a physiotherapist coming to the house. Nothing helped, then I went to a chiropractor. Good ones in the UK always take an x-ray first, a few weeks passed having treatment and then one day I lay on his therapy bench, the head part was separate to the rest and had a spring. He wacked me on the head so hard that my head shot down - I was cured! Never, would I let anyone hit me like that again!!!!
If I feel my neck ache threatening now, I have an exercise he told me to do. You stand with both arms stretched out to the sides at shoulder level. Have one thumb sticking up and one down. Look at the one sticking up rotate your arms at the same time (keep at shoulder height) so that the up thumb is now turned down and the other now up. As you do this exercise turn your head so that you are always looking at the up thumb. Do it slowly.
Jean
stiff neck affects the vagus nerve which in turn affects Afib . May I suggest you search for neck exercises to strengthen the Vagus nerve. I use several and they have helped shorten the duration and frequency of my episodes. Good luck!
could you kindly post a link or two if you have them on this?
I understand the tight neck thing. My Af was no real problem from Jan 2020 until Oct 2022 when I suddenly started regular swimming again. I hadn’t been at all since Covid struck. I quickly realised that the unusual head movement in both front crawl and breaststroke caused severe tightness in the top of my neck, compounded by a new tight swim cap. The Af went completely bonkers! I was getting two-four day long episodes with barely a two day break in between.
I’m pretty sure I aggravated (impinged?) my vagus nerve(s). I’ve had lots of massage to relieve the tight neck, but more importantly to provide DEEP relaxation.
I’ve been listening to Jim Donovan, Sound Solution for a week, which has really relaxed me - I’ve got spine surgery next week, so my stress levels really need some serious controlling right now. It’s helped me to sleep so much better - I’m actually sleeping 6-8 hours! Unheard of!
I’ve changed to a fabulous new pillow:
spinalanswer.co.uk/product-...
Its not cheap, but it’s gorgeous and my neck feels much better already. I can highly recommend it for neck issues.
Just some ideas.
Hi, I have both Bowen and acupuncture from my acupuncturist. Multi faceted approach, works really well.
Have a look at McTimmoney chiropractic website. McTimmoney chiros have to do 7yrs training as opposed to 5 for a chiro. They specialise in small adjustments....like tapping, will look at your spine , make adjustments. Often by gentle tapping. It seems they're not doing much but actually you have to be careful for a few days afterwards. My neck problem stemmed from misaligned hips. Made a massive difference to me. As for head turning...mine is restricted to the right....due to a disc injury a few years back...lol.
I think it does contribute. I recently worked out that scar tissue from abdominal surgery aged 19 had been slowly pulling my upper abdomen towards the right and causing my left side - specifically chest shoulder and arm - to be misaligned. It's been an on and off problem for years, also triggering sciatica. I'm now wondering if the misalignment has put pressure on my heart region. I'm flexible and do yoga which has kept me going all these years. I have regular massages - where we discovered scar tissue deep in the abdomen. This is helping and I now massage the area on my own. Feldenkrais is also really beneficial. It realigns the skeleton via gentl movements. Highly recommended. You'll find a good practitioner over there I'm sure. I can ask my practitioner for recommendation if you like - she lives here but is originally from Georgia and will have contacts.
wow!! All these replies are interesting! I’ve persistent AF , usually bearable. I also have ankylodis spondilitis. I october ( I was not stressed) I had a sudden vile episode of very blurred vision and extreme giddiness. I could not stand. This lasted an hour and terrified me. A headache back of skull lasted longer.
Then.. a month ago exactly the same thing happened on a sunday evening. I saw a gp on monday , lots of normal neurological tests , nothing significant but she phoned Stroke clinic . No reply. Late monday I spoke to stroke clinic , they said a consultant would phone. 4 days later, I got the call, a long telephone appointment. Told not to drive for 4 weeks . I live alone.
Two weeks later I had a LONG head MRI and angiogram. That was two days ago. I am now easily convinced of the worst.
I am told results could be in up to 3 months !!!!!! So imagination going wild . .. and, now, horrible neck and base of skull pain , and of course AF banging .
I am due to go to NZ in April to see my son and family, I’ve not seen them since 4 years and covid lockdown .
With no results my medical insurance will be void!! What to do ??? It is a vile journey !!!!
certainly we are all very different, but I often get giddy before a migraine hits. I tend to be silly anyway, so it took a few times of that happening to realize. 😊 hope your issue is something simple!
you don’t sound the least bit silly Ablation 7!!! The TIA consultant ( in her tel appointment) said Migraine was an option but she didn’t see me. 40 minutes in the MRI machine with a angiogram canulla in tested my powers of resilience !!!!!! I was giddy today , got a sore throat and neck / base if skull ache. It would be easier to simply donk me on the head . I just want to know my results. And…… if any one else says” well you look all right “ I too will resort to silliness.
yes I certainly do. I do not have a nights sleep due to wakening at various times with a sore neck and a massive headache…my Doctor said just keep taking paracetamol which does help a bit I find now the pain has stepped up a level. It’s hard to live with constantly
Neck hurt turning it.thought computer strain but also felt maybe AFib.
Hi mjames1,
Interesting post. I recall in the early days of my own treatment (before anyone even got around to cardioverting me!) that Dr Edward Rowland enquired whether I had any neck pain/stiffness. So, it has certainly been a known 'thing' among those practitioners with a reflective take on, particularly 'lone', AF.
As observed elsewhere, it is not hard to see why. Because the 10th cranial, or vagus, nerve, as the name suggests, enervates a whole array of organs, any dysfunction in which can affect any other.
I have predominantly vagal AF, for which my parasympathetic nervous system tends to trigger episodes - eating, digesting, lying back, reclining, perseverating about stuff etc..
To the extent that, during my ablation a decade ago, my specialist took special care to treat LA vagal nerve endings - something of a hobby-horse of theirs at the time I believe.
On occasion I have had episodes of unexplained dizziness, at least one instance of POTS, and normally have postural hypotension. I should say my normal resting heartrate is around 38bpm and BP low normal. My dizziness has typically come on when reclining (e.g. on a physio bed. Big time nystagmus!) and moving my neck during those periods I have been prone to it. And neck movements generally, and rising after sleep, have also been a trigger.
I don't want to overextend an already long post, but I also have a mild scoliosis, discovered incidentally on MRI, and my sole sibling has had a very pronounced one since her teens.
Spinal MRIs for my past low back pain disclosed what looked like degenerative disc disease (DDD), which hardly chimed with my usually very active lifestyle (I am 64 now). But of course DDD on MRI is almost indistinguishable from B12 deficiency, which might also explain the dizziness, among other things. B12 deficiency (in common with mercury intoxication) will contribute to myelin wasting, and symptoms not dissimilar to MS.
Coincidently, just 18 months ago, the first time my B12 had ever been measured it was found to be at 129 (197-771ng/L). And that 'normal range' itself is probably far too low.
In common with the 'range-mania' that affects GP perception of many other subclinical conditions it is a bit of a 'Kwik-Fit' approach to setting your 'tyre pressures' somewhere between wheel-barrow and Jumbo Jet, rather than what is optimal for your specific 'tyre and vehicle'.
I should say I have a normal diet, plenty of meat and veg, and no vegan traits. And it takes about four years to run down our limited B12 reserves to that extent. Nevertheless, I was able to quickly replete it with OTC oral high-dose methylcobalamin. There was no pernicious anaemia, but likely high levels of consequent Homocysteine (not good my.clevelandclinic.org/heal..., and too costly and 'cruel and unusual' for UK GPs to measure).
So, again, in common with others, I would just emphasise that it's all connected.
Which is one reason why lone PAF is so mercurial. We should all get our B12 (and other critical vitamins) tested as we age. Not least because gastric and digestive dysmotility and dysbiosis (of the sort that an ablation can trigger, because of the acute proximity of the LA to the oesophagus, like 3mm) could contribute to e.g. H Pylori infection, ulceration and hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid), the consequences of which may be far-reaching.
These sound benign, commonplace and even unrelated and are, not unusually, treated by Whac-A-Mole GPs with PPIs which just make things worse (and some, equally contributory, anticoagulants, like Dabigatran - literally hard to swallow). But they can join up to make for a perfect storm of protean conditions. Which it would take an improbable confluence of cardio, endocrine, gastro and neuro specialist to untangle, but which may contribute to the exquisite feedback loop which is AF.
One of the reasons, of course, that boards like this (and associated thyroid and PA ones) exist and are so useful!
My favourite line Whac a Mole GPs and PPIs...cannot understand why reflux issues aren't properly investigated and PPIs doled out to people who might well have low stomach acid.
Thanks. I'm afraid this point-and-shoot approach to GP prescribing is only getting worse. No one can get them for it. And the trouble is that they are just following flowcharts, pursuant of some sort of national cost/death minimisation clearing solution. In which any benefit to an individual patient is almost entirely coincidental. Discretion on either the part of the patient or the practitioner is a no no.
One GP, straight out of medical school or off the boat, sent me home to get my affairs in order when my PSA tested 17 (<3.0) in the presence of a UTI... He left me discussing the relative merits of 'watchful waiting' or radical prostate surgery. Another seemed genuinely concerned I might not survive the night because I was in AF. Well, I quite often have been over the past 14 years that I have been aware of it! Luckily I survived both.
It might not be so bad if this doctrinaire approach was really infallable, but I am old enough to recall that many of the drugs we now call PPIs started out as blockbuster treatments for gastric ulcers, when they were called Histamine 2 Receptor Antagonists. Of course, that was before it was appreciated that ulcers were not caused by excess acid at all but by the H Pylori bacterium. Still, you can't let all that drug R&D go to waste.
By the same token, anticoagulant policy has done a complete 180 in the past decade. Whereas, not long ago, you might get Warfarinised at the drop of a hat, now even with much better medications you may have to have a TIA before you get one, even if you ask for it (I certainly had to do both that way around unfortunately!).
Don't get me wrong, "When the facts change etc., - JMK". But one would think this would only urge a more humble, contingent, and patient-focused approach. Not the contrary.
And with many of the matters that bring us to forums like this the trouble is only made worse by the fact that there is a threshold, below which the precursors of many of our joined up conditions derive - almost entirely unheeded by medics. Until they do suddenly get on their radar ("Good news Sir/Madam it's serious"). And only then receive both barrels, without there being much joined up thought about it.
A pet instance is the Pavlovian, knee-jerk way statins now get prescribed for even modestly elevated cholesterol, as if they were just like taking a glass of water. Whereas, before we had the omnipresent cholesterol and TSH tests (the latter of which does not even measure thyroid function!) and the concept of 'normal ranges', elevated cholesterol would have given rise to suspicion of the widespread hypothyroid conditions for which patients now struggle to get treated in the UK at all.
Putting the other side, this must be frustrating too for those who went into the profession with the vocation to heal. Some doctors ate now coming out about this on social media. I like what you've said here about the tipping point- and the multifactorial element. I turned statins down flat and had to talk to one of the older, more experienced GPs to get them to admit my bad cholesterol was NOT above the benchmark...
Agreed. Dr Findlay would not find it so fulfilling! And of course money and expediency dominate. In which context, as prescriptions become ever more generic on the tacit assumption that we are all the same, it is dismaying that all the scientific evidence is only to the contrary in favouring a more sensitive, tailored approach. In public sector medicine there is often a distinct lack of curiosity. While in private medicine there can be rather too much! I almost yearn to have that inevitable one-to-one with a well tempered AI diagnostic robot.
And to add.....the test for PA (Intrinsic Factor) only picks up 50% of cases. As we age we produce less acid in our stomachs causing problems with absorption of critical b12......low B12 causes multiple symptoms including migraines, blurred or double vision, poor memory, numbness, tingling/nerve pain, dizziness, fatigue & many more. B12d.org website has an excellent assessment online.
Any one over 50 should be taking b12 & a vitamin b complex (vit bs work best together)
Quite right. And I think anyone entertaining vegan notions of any age should certainly be given counselling about where exactly they mean to get sufficient B vitamins from.
Indeed. I know many take B12 supplements. My adult son is a vegetarian & doesnt. He believes he gets enough from Tofu & I think he said some specific beans....can't remember. I bought him some b12 at one point. Hey ho.
Yes, ha ha. Got a daughter like that myself. With other issues of her own (like having her heart on the wrong side - situs inversus totalis actually, so everything's the wrong way round). And with a couple of degrees in biochemistry to boot. But, I agree. What can you do? Match, blue touch-paper, wait four years...
It’s odd you should say this as it seems so unlikely. However, my neck disks are not good and have this last six months been bringing more discomfort after many years of relative calm, coinciding with an increase in ectopics and palpitations and, more recently, AF. I had never considered a connection with the heart but shall now think again.
Steve
I get pains in my neck and across my shoulders when in a.f. which goes at the same time as the a.f. l also have cervical spondylitis so l don't know if they are connected.
Two things, when I've had a stiff neck etc the AF has been caused by ibuprofen which is a trigger. Use only paracetamol. Secondly osteopaths won't help me cos they say there's risk of bleeds, with their twists and shunts, when you are on blood thinners. A bugger that as I always found they were most effective help.
I agree with vagus nerve irritation.
Tinnitus, neck pain back pain and Af. All goes together. Oh and weird headaches.
I have had a terrible stiff neck and shoulder since April 2022😢 Osteopathy usually works for me in a couple of treatments, not this time. I went to a shoulder consultant who I’d thought would deal with the neck also 🙄 lot of money later and no good answer. I found a spinal consultant who correctly diagnosed Spondylitis and another MRI at a cost and I’ve 6&7th cervical degeneration 😢
I was offered a cortisone injection which I refused! I’d rather use complimentary therapies 1st, he didn’t mention the possible dire side effects!!
Your Vagus nerve may likely be affected and his may be the cause of AF episodes
Just want to thank everyone for all the useful information on this topic.
In any event, my neck a little better today and also upped my flecainide back to 50mg every 12 hours which hopefully will prevent another afib episode.
Was trying to figure out the trigger for my neck this time, but like afib, more triggers than you will find at a gun show! Maybe my change in bed elevation, or the pillow, or some recent house work that has piled up, or....
What is helping, however, is going back to some gentle neck stretches and firing up my hydroculator, which has been collecting dust. While a bit of a luxury, my Chattanooga brand hydroculaor, which is the same as used by most PT's in the US, gives me instant access to that oh so soothing moist heat. One can do the same thing using a pot of boiling water, but having the neck packs hot and on the ready can't be beat. Use it before the stretches and a couple of times throughout the day as well. I did try ice packs on my neck at one point, but it induced afib. The heat does not.
Jim
It is the vagus nerve.
Sanja Gupta has a video where he shows how to gently massage the carotid vessel in the neck to stimulate the vagus nerve.
This article also discusses movement to reduce AF. tao-fit.com/vagus-nerve-ent...
If you try things shown in the movement video and it helps let me know.
Yes, I believe it was a trigger for me. I think any body inflammation can trigger it. Now trying Flecainide and it seems to have knocked it out. Fingers crossed and knock on wood!
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