Out of 8 visitors yesterday 4 of them had no masks on and two had them not covering their noses. Masks are required for all visitors according to the hospital website. They were present for about 5 hours. I mentioned this in a friendly informal way to one of the ward sisters. She apologised profusely and said she would alert staff to the issue. Today, however, it’s the same situation. And there are lots of coughing nurses with masks just covering their mouths and not their noses. Can anyone think of a way to tackle this problem? Obviously, I don’t want to get people into trouble, or make myself unpopular by complaining, but I am concerned about the situation. And apparently there are some Covid patients in side rooms not a million miles away according to a friendly porter.
Visitors in wards without masks - Atrial Fibrillati...
Visitors in wards without masks
Unfortunately people are now considering the Covid epidemic is over when it is not. I share your concern and in particular I use a mask on the bus and in stores.I can be a little more relaxed in social circles if i have some idea of who the people are and possibly of their associates.
Yes, it’s true that there is great complacency. It’s just I wasn’t expecting this in hospital.
Not sure you can do anything more - I think ventilation/filters are more essential so you might ask about that? I think the nurses often get abuse if they remind people & so many people I know say they don’t wear a mask because they are except for one reason or another.
Personally I’d rather be well wrapped up by an open window but that is often difficult in modern hospitals.
I can understand your concern but we now need to live with this and many other virus & bacterial infections make a come back big time because we have much less immunity because of lockdown.
I was talking to a doctor Neighbour who thought masks were not helpful in preventing spread, using antiseptic gels & frequent handwashing & general good hygiene wiping down surfaces is very helpful.
Remember that worry = stress = lower immune.
Thinking of you and hope you feel better very soon.
It was realised fairly early on in the pandemic that there was very little spread of covid by fomites - ie surface contamination but I am not sure that is true for flu or other viruses. The actual studies on masking are not at all clear. Many are of poor quality and the results are contradictory. Before covid the consensus of the WHO was that masks are of no use for people who have no symptoms. I was very keen on mask wearing early on in the pandemic and always wore my mask in shops before it became obligatory here ( and obligatory was enforced with fines even outside where masking is of no use at all particularly in summer) . The ridiculous rules round masking ie outside even if nobody else around , wearing mask to restaurant table and then taking it off even on terraces , motorcyclists yes , joggers and cyclists exempt in Paris ) made me start to question it. There seemed to be no scientific rrationale behind much of this and so I concluded it was as much for optics and control. I no longer wear my mask when shopping though I would if I had to use public transport. We still have to wear it in a medical setting here and most people comply with that but I suspect you just would not get into a hospital without one. Nor would you get away with just saying you were exempt. You would have to produce some proof of that.
Practically the same here in the north of Italy, I doubt if you'd be allowed into any medical environment (hospital, surgeries, pharmacies etc) without a mask.
Some countries like Sweden haven never made masks compulsory and only advised them on public transport. I have friends who live in both Sweden and France and the rules in both countries were totally different. They actually"escaped" France only hours before a lockdown because the rules were so strict but then felt uncomfortable seeing people just acting normally in Sweden. It was months before they were offered the vaccine in Sweden.
Sweden’s policy was highly controversial, however; it was widely believed that they were adopting a herd immunity policy following the initial Covid outbreak in 2020.
Yes I know but it didn't seem in the end to have had dire consequences. I do agree with other posts that the main spread was by aerosol droplets but even now, countries don't seem to agree on either how seriously ill it makes people or h ow badly it spreads. You only have to look at China's continuing policy and the demonstrations against it. Do hey know something we don't know or is the GOvernment just paranoid? Only time will tell. I don't think anyone understands it still.
Thanks for the reply. I think the fear of an angry reaction is exactly the reason why masks are not enforced. Unfortunately, there is no chance of being able to open a window in the ward. I have, however, found two small adjacent rooms called the “quiet room” and the “rest room” in a fairly remote part of the hospital. The “quiet room” (the better of the two imo) contains two sofas and a small table and seems always to be unoccupied. I spent about 5 hours in there today without being challenged, so I shall go there tomorrow. I was also given fruit and biscuits by a student nurse who spends quite a lot of time in a small kitchen opposite (and who possibly isn’t supposed to be there either).
Ooooh… the ways and means…….Well done. Does no-one on the ward ask where you go to?
Yesterday nobody did. As I left I muttered that I was going to the restroom, but it was to a clerical member of staff, not a nurse.
It should be 'no mask, no entry'.
Hospital is responsible for more spread of infection due to the concentration of infected people, and sadly nurses are responsible for much of this spread.
Keeping up protocols for minimising spread is very difficult especially in the nurses common room etc.
Spread is inevitable.
Unfortunately, even nurses are not covering their noses with masks. Many are coughing. And a student nurse told me that some work with Covid patients (there are some in side rooms). What to do? If I report them, I risk making myself very unpopular.
You could mention it to PALS (patient liaison service). I had to complain about my Useless Local Cardiac Ward while an inpatient once and within hours of sending an email to them I'd had a 121 visit from a PALS rep and then a 30 min chat to cardiologist who explained everything I had not had properly explained before which was helpful. I wasn't 'punished' in any way and communication was much improved. I'm sure they could make an anonymous approach if necc. Or you could talk to the ward sister.
It’s 0250 in the morning and I’ve had no sleep because of a patient who talks loudly in his sleep opposite. I’m going to ask if there is a chance of a transfer from Basildon to somewhere like Royal Papworth. I don’t know what the protocols are for this sort of thing.
Good luck 🤞
I’ve now mentioned the mask problem to PALS. They *didn’t know* whether masks for visitors to the wards were compulsory or not! They’ve said they will pass on my comments to “infection control” and “the wards” without closely identifying me. I’m not wildly optimistic this will bring about the desired change…
I would make clear in a loud voice that it not acceptable!Dont be quietly worrying and too polite to say. Nursing staff in particular should be more alert
I’m building up to that! I’ll see if there is an improvement today -if not, I will go straight to admin. I mentioned it to a lead nurse on another ward and she said she would ensure they were more alert to the issue, but nothing has changed . “Information for visitors” at Essex Cardiothoracic Centre (Basildon) says, “From 30 September 2022: Although there is no need to wear a face mask in public areas of the hospital, please wear a mask when visiting all wards and inpatient areas. This will help us keep our staff and patients safe.We will continue to provide surgical masks in public spaces, wards and departments for patients, visitors and staff who wish to use them.”
This is ambiguous. The first part seems to suggest that masks on wards are compulsory, but the second seems to offer a choice. It’s poorly worded.
Quite right too xxx
Because the government have said there is no imperative to wear a mask it can only ever be a request. The ambiguity is what causes so many problems.
Last year , at the height of it all, I had an appointment for urological tests. Staff were walking around without masks and the urology department, especially the toilet was absolutely filthy - and i mean filthy. I put a comment online on the hospital website and got a phone call the next day asking for details along with a promise it would be rectified but it should never have been like that with all the insistence of hand sanitiser and such. Even some years ago when I was an inpatient the cleaners did very little; blood all over the floor, dirty bathrooms and the overbed table was utterly disgusting. It's no wonder infection spreads so easily. Bring back matrons!
I had 11 days in Hosputal I. Two spells I would say 20 per cent if visitors had masks , ended up confined to our ward as a chap tested positive in our ward of 4 beds luckily none of us caught it
A lucky escape!
I ended up in hospital last weekend (gallbladder this time rather than heart). Hubby and I wore masks but the other patient in my bay and her sister had none.The nurses and Drs had them covering their mouths only.......... why bother?
I still wear one to go shopping on case someone starts hacking their guts up in the cat food aisle.
Apart from anything, I've not had a cold for the past 2.5 years so I'll probably carry on with it.
I suppose a tactful, "is there a reason why you only cover the mouth?" in an enquiring rather than accusatory manner may work.
Best wishes.
Ang
I’ve decided that I will praise the nurses who take blood pressure etc. who *are* fully masked. Presumably this will get circulated to the others.
Have you considered double masking? I did that last time I had to go to A abd E in March this year. You could make a point you're concerned and therefore needing to take extra precautions. Perhaps that's a way to get alongside the problem.
I’m ok with patients not having them because they are tested, it’s the visitors I’m concerned about. A porter-who has had Covid 4 times- told me it’s through visitors that it gets into the hospital.
I think it is very difficult for those people who only wear masks for short periods ie to go shopping to appreciate how unpleasant it is to have to wear it for a long time. Many nurses work 10-12 hour shifts . If you wear glasses it is even more difficult . Mask studies are contradictory and even for those that show a positive benefit it is not large. There is evidence that masks function less well as the length of time wearing them increases and if they are touched with the hands. Then there are the environmental implications. I suspect doctors and nurses covering their mouths only is because it is just too hard to have your breathing slightly impaired for such long periods adding go the other multiple stresses of working in a hospital. If there was no impairment at all of breathing asthmatics would not get exemptions.
I am fully appreciative of that, as I wear a mask for several hours a day in my profession, also whilst wearing glasses, so not just "for short periods whilst shopping"!
I was merely offering a suggestion to the poster as to how to tackle his own issue with it and advising of a similar experience myself last weekend.
I said "why bother" not as a criticism of the nursing staff, but questioning the point of wearing it at all.
Hope that clarifies.
Perhaps they have no choice about wearing it - probably a hospital rule. The hospital will be able to enforce masking on employees but not on patients and visitors. I was in hospital for an op in Dec 2020 and again in Sept 2021. We were supposed to wear our masks whenever the nurses came into the room and if sharing a room. But not for sleeping! Senseless. My neighbour hardly ever wore hers. I did wear mine when the nurses came in but stopped wearing it all the time during the day as I decided it was pointless . You breathe as much asleep as awake. Nurses also came in during the night to check up on you. Were you supposed to wake youself up and put it on? There were just so many contradictory and frankly nonsensical rules round masking that people became tired of it. I think it will be difficult to bring mass masking back. Even here where on the whole people were a lot more compliant at the height of the pandemic than they were in the UK . We have to live with covid and other respiratory viruses . The best way to do that is to have an immune system that is working properly. There has been far too little emphasis on this throughout the last 3 years.
Yes, that is fair. I use a silicon spacer in my mask- really helps.
What's that? How does it work?
Will post photo. Singers use them. Really helpful if I do a yoga class too.
What studies have you been reading to suggest loosely fitting masks covering the mouth and nose offer any protection?
It does make sense why the hospital won’t expend resources enforcing rules that won’t make any difference.
How effective masks are depend on the quality of the mask. FFP3s and FFP2s are far more effective than ordinary surgical masks. But at least the latter offer minimal protection. If mask-wearing was ineffective why would hospitals ask they are worn on the wards in the first place? Mayo Clinic notes: “Can face masks help slow the spread of the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)? Yes. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as getting vaccinated, frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19.The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends masks for the general public”
Our GP had a notice up on Friday saying the new NHS guidelines did not require people to wear masks in medical settings. I wore one and just one other person in the waiting room yet all the doctors wore them.
But this is a cardiac ward in a hospital! My GP is still enforcing masks in the waiting room.
Yes I realised that and I agree they should be worn but it's not what he NHS guidance now says
I was in hospital in the Southampton area for 10 days in October on the Cardiorespiratory ward. All staff, doctors, nurses, ancillaries, cleaners, chaplains etc all wore masks properly all the time. None of the patients or visitors ever did. The evening before due to be discharged, I tested positive (my first time) and was put into a small side room to isolate. Released on day 10. That was hard.
I think we've just got to accept we might catch it in hospital despite taking all precautions.
Patient liaison might be a good move. Beats me medics not having mask over their nose. Less aerosol spray factor going out, so at least they're thinking about the patients, but they're not protecting themselves from it incoming.
Youvare tight about the medics. I’m goin g to complain tomorrow at senior level to get their attention quickly. I’ll also tell them I’ll be logging everything g from now on.
I think that's fair. You're not going all of this- nor are your fellow patients- to pick up COVID. Earlier in the pandemic it was more understandable due to sheer numbers, lack of PPE and knowledge. Now there's no excuse.
You are right. Tomorrow I’m going to tackle them!
In 2007 my stepfather had a triple bypass. You could not just walk into the ICU ward but had to be let in by a nurse. For personnel there was a code. There was a dispenser for alcoholic gel by the door. Every time we went to visit we had to wait a while before being allowed in and I observed the nurses and doctors going in and out. The male doctors ( some of them middle aged so likely consultant level ) hardly ever used the gel!
I’ve been told that immediately before surgery I will be transferred to another ward where no visitors are allowed. There is definitely a risk of infection following the procedure, in fact that period is supposed to be more risky than the bypass itself.
No visitors is a good idea. The first hip op I had was before the vaccine roll out and there was a no visitors policy at the clinic. The second one you had to show proof of vaccination or a negative PCR in the last 48 hours. I told my husband not to bother visiting as I wasn't going to be there for more than a few days. The ICU where my stepfather was in Manchester was pretty strict about visitors. Not all the patients could have them at the same time, no children and the time was limited. All the best for your op. Do you know when it is yet?
Still no information. It’s been implied that it will be later this week or next week. They’ve completed all of the tests needed. It could always be cancelled if an emergency operation is needed for someone. Thanks for your reply.
That happened to my stepfather. We had to go back to UK to look after my mother and were in the air when it was cancelled at the last minute! We arrived to find him back home. The second time I told my mother I was not coming till I had spoken to the ward sister and she verified he was actually on the table. Luckily it was a time of year when Ryanair flights could be got at short notice. As it was she had to spend one night alone as she stubbornly refused to go to my sister's ( 45 mins away).
I was wearing an FFP2 mask on a visit to A&E in the summer. Glad of it in the waiting room at least, as there were very few masks and a lot of people around. One member of staff said “that’s a serious mask, are you shielding”. No - just careful!
I’ve read that FFP2s are standard in parts of Germany.
They became standard here towards the end of the restrictions period. I have never used anything else right from the beginning. Surgical masks fit far too loosely .
Very few people in the UK wear FFP2’s and are mostly unaware that they are more effective than surgical masks. There are also a lot of fake masks around unfortunately.
twice when I wore an ffp2 mask to hospital , I have been told to remove it and put on one of their inferior spec masks. I explained that mine was more effective than theirs but they insisted I changed. Hospital policy apparently 😝
I would flat out refuse in that situation.
Sounds like you're already doing what you can do, given the "guidance" that the hospital provides to its visitors. I'm not qualified to know whether masking works, but the scientists I look to for advice say that even one-way masking with a high quality mask makes a huge difference in lowering risk. In the US, our CDC recently changed its recommendations to leaving it to the discretion of the healthcare facility to make masking policy. In doing so they cited the increased availability of preventive meds and therapeutics…nearly all of which have since been proven (by the CDC) to be worthless because of the rapid rise of immune evading variants. (Go figure…) Where I live, hospitals, clinics, etc have essentially ignored the CDC and continue to require masks of everyone. It's non-negotiable.
it’s good that they are ignoring CDC. I wish they would do the equivalent here. FFP3’s are, as you say, known to be effective.
The Government has convinced the masses and friendly media to pretend that Covid has left us. This is in the name of commerce and political expediency. People who are at risk from Covid-19 are now prisoners in their own homes. Visit the library, go shopping, catch a train? Forget it. Nothing must compromise the chances of reelection in two years' time. Public health and control measures don't go down well with the editor of the Daily Mail.
Hard to disagree. Other countries don’t seem to have gone anything like as far down the road of abandoning restrictions as the UK.
We've been wearing masks since Feb 2020, they were relaxed unless in a patient's room/bay over the summer but cases went up. I have to say I prefer wearing one in work now than not.
Masks serve no purpose whatsoever, no paper supports this. Check out the Denmark paper. The virus is 100,000 smaller than a speck of dust so will penetrate any mask. Don’t worry it’s more or less only a bad cold now, it won’t kill you unless you are in your 80’s and or in very I’ll health.
Ordinary surgical masks are not much good but FFP3s and FFP2s are. See this study from RCN: rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/...
Oh dear! This proves the power of social media amongst the intellectually vulnerable.
😱
I don't think masks do much at all to protect you; they are more help in preventing you from infecting others. My son flew to the USA two weeks ag o and wore a mask for the whole journey and 3 days after arriving he started with covid for the second time. He had it really bad at the very start, before vaccines or all the restrictions came into place. NOw twice vaccinated, this time was more like a bad cold for 5 days. BUt of course the whole household then went down with it.
You need a proper mask like the FF2/FF3, not the disposable ones or the fabric ones. Very few people are bothering now in the UK- can’t speak for elsewhere- but on public transport and busy supermarkets it still makes sense particularly if you are older/vulnerable. It tends to be the older folk on the bus, in my experience.
There's still the problem of people coming into your house. I don't want to wear a mask when someone calls but I have a cleaner once a week ( I'm housebound). She came last Thursday and went down with covid on Sunday. I'm still hoping I escaped. She had tested and was clear that day but does that mean she wasn't infectious?
Yes, you have to be very careful. It’s always a case of assessing our risks and it just takes one person to pass something on. I take cabs quite often and still wear a mask even though the drivers rarely do now. Yet a couple of times at least in recent months the drivers have had obvious “cold” symptoms which was concerning. I hope you stay well and haven’t caught anything.
Thanks, me too.
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