I am still trying to overcome a Vitamin D deficiency level of 22 nmol/L, and which I still believe may have played a part in the aetiology of my AF (the timing of my AF and my deficiency are worryingly coterminous).
The UK recommendation is that a Vitamin D deficiency is <25 nmol/L, but this research shows a person needs a level of at least 50 nmol/L. Are UK guidelines hopelessly out of date and just plain dangerous?
Consequently I want to recommend this article/research to all AF Forum members.
I have been in the so called deficient range for years lowest was 12, highest in the 20s, however I am one of the few who are completely intolerant to all forms of VitD supplements so there is no way I can raise my levels. I no longer worry about it as that’s where my body wants it to be.
Another AF member told me she also had trouble raising her Vitamin D to normal levels (in France => 50 nmol/L) by supplementation, and did so eventually with calcifediol drops on prescription. Calcifediol is what becomes of the vit D we make from the sun or take in supplements (cholecalciferol) once it has gone through the liver (quoting my friend there).
Have you tried calcifediol drops? Although you don't seem concerned even after reading this article?
I have tried all forms prescribed and bought and I cannot take any of them. Over on the thyroid forum there are several of us who cannot tolerate supplements of any sort.
I believe we all have our own set levels and shouldn’t necessarily aim for a general range which possibly raises levels beyond where our bodies are happy. I do have quite a complex health history so maybe that’s why 🤷♀️ and no I’m not concerned as there’s nothing I can or want to do about it.
I only wanted to draw AF Forum members attention to this article/research, and I had no intention of changing any particular individual's lived experience or choices.
Of course everyone should read these articles it’s just a shame that researchers don’t acknowledge or want to research into those that have low levels but can’t increase them due to intolerance, it would be great to find out why the problem exists and if indeed it is a problem or just a difference.
I found out that I had low levels of Vitamin D after taking 12.5g a day for years. That made me buy some drops and I took about 2000iu a day for a year or so with the result that when I was next tested my level had gone up to 153 nmol/L. 75- 200 were marked optimal.
I think several body processes are fixed for an individual. My resting heart rate is about 60-65 bpm and it's not going to change much. Others might be a lot higher or lower.
But vit D levels do fluctuate in normal people. They can be quite low and then a few days on the beach sunbathing will send them sky high.
Do you sunbathe? I rarely go out these days so, without my vit D drops, I would be deficient and to my mind the worse for it.
I don’t sunbathe but I have animals so I’m outside a lot all year round. I actually feel better when my levels are on the lower side (normal for me) and trying to supplement makes me feel very unwell.
Here desirable levels are between 75nmol/l and 250nmol /l. We have 3 categories , desirable ( not really the same as normal as it's probably "normal " for large swathes of the population to be insufficient here as in the uk) , insufficient and deficient. I am not sure it is the same in the uk as I have never had my vit D status tested there. Vit D testing is fairly common for elderly women in the context of osteoporosis but not men- my husband is 78 and has never had a prescription for a vit D test. He pays for one from time to time- it is easy here as you just go down to the same local lab that you would take a prescription to. It costs about €22 and you get the result in the post the next day or by email .
I just wanted others to read the article/research which is relating Vitamin D to mortality from various health issues. No specific mention in the article of AF, other presumably than it being included in cardiac statistics.
The article mentions 50 nmol/L as being "high enough" to produce optimum health outcomes, with smaller daily maintenance doses the preferred option, rather than larger less frequent dosing. Plus sunshine of course, if possible.
It could be a contributing factor in some cases but I doubt that it causes AFib, nor do I believe it “treats” AFib either. I have been taking Vit D for several years because of low bone density and my levels were fine at the time I had my first AFib episode. Having optimal vitamin D levels hasn’t prevented several more episodes of AFib happening either. My experience is just an anecdote though, it’s not evidence of anything other than I don’t think that applies in my case.
That said, it’s worth maintaining adequate/optimal levels and there’s no harm in supplementing with sensible doses. The medical evidence of the benefits of vitamin D in a number of conditions is mixed. There is also the observation that some people can’t increase their vitamin D levels despite high levels of supplementation. It’s worth remembering that high dose supplements provide levels of nutrients that never occur naturally in any foods, and maybe there are limits to what can be absorbed from supplements. Also, supplements are sold as foods, not as medicines, and the amount stated on the packaging compared to what’s in the tablets can vary considerably. That’s perfectly legal because it’s a food, not a drug.
Thanks for your considered and informative reply.
Of course I am trying to remain hopeful re AF and Vitamin D. Perhaps I will soon be smelling the coffee as others have.
I have just had a 6 month retest of my Vitamin D level, the first since my (long unrecognised) deficiency was detected, with results to follow later this week.
It would be an irony indeed if I also was one of those people for whom supplementation doesn't work. But, as I mentioned in my reply above, there would still be a way forward re Vitamin D if that is my decision.
Yes, I knew that already but it’s vitamin D2 not vitamin D3.
I’m a pale white Celt and I burn in minutes and I really do mean burn. I can only manage 10-15 minutes in the sun without having to protect myself in some way.
Vif D is not a vitamin but a type of hormone. It is very difficult to get sufficient from food alone. The analogy of food and high dose supplements does not really work with vit D as it is possible to obtain high levels getting it as we evolved to - from sunshine. However this is dependant on several factors - living in a place with sufficient sunshine and exposing enough of the body for enough time . Today we spend too much time indoors and wear too much clothing to fulfill these requirments.
The body has inbuilt mechanisms for making vitamin D from sunshine. It’s impossible to “overdose” on vitamin D if that is how your body obtains it. It’s not as if vitamin D levels in the body go up and up and up the more sunlight you are exposed to. Your body will adapt.
Taking vitamin D in tablets (or sprays or whatever) is not the same as vitamin D an obtained from sunshine. The body metabolises vitamin D from supplements differently than the vitamin D it makes in the body from sun exposure. I see no point in taking huge doses of vitamin D for various reasons, but taking large doses of supplements of anything isn’t what the human body is designed to do. If people want to megadose on whatever supplement they want, go ahead I’m not going to stop them. I’ve known people who take very large doses and they still don’t have good vitamin D levels. I’ve had higher blood levels on lower dose vitamin D than I’ve had on higher doses. So I’m sticking with the lower dose. Supplements are supposed to correct deficiencies. They don’t have miraculous superpowers beyond that.
As for the point of this thread, I was not deficient in vitamin D when I first developed AF, and I’m not deficient in vitamin D now. I don’t see supplements as medicines. I don’t think they can “treat” AF, at least not in my case. You do you. I’m not stopping anyone from megadosing their way back to health if that’s their belief.
So when one gets a VitD test, which one do they get?
Are the results put at each type Vit D if one is low?
I have a verandah and wander out early morning when sunshine is up before 10am.
They say not to bathe after 10 which is 11 here in NZ when daylight savings period starts in September.
Our summer is coming !!! Poor you in UK with dismal political times!
Its gone Labour weekend so planting out is now appropriate!
Seed potatoes already in. Now Grafted Tomatoes (2 types) 6 Russian Red, Barsel, Chillie, marigolds, runner beans, purple primroses, a bulb in middle ready to open, spring onions 2 lots early winter and late winter look great, and caulis which need to grow fast.
I enjoy the plantings and growing.
Tomatoes are coming down in price, $7.99 kilo. So hurry to create tomatoes before I go away in mid January.
cheri JOY
As an afib I was so glad that the Dr stopped Bisoprolol. I'll rely on Diltiazem 120mg morning only. Yippee!
The blood test I had at my local hospital lab was ‘Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 level’ but I had another test privately also measured both 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 & D2, but the D2 level was fairly minor compared with D3. I think it’s the D3 level that’s the important one.
Not much sun in the UK in late October, I can tell you! But still, it’s good for the body clock to get daylight into your eyes early in the day if you can, even when it’s not sunny or in summer.
I am scared to look at the news, it really has been a nightmare. Life has become hard enough with spiralling prices and peoples’ money not going as far, and this after coming after the pandemic and all that …. scary times indeed!
Your vegetable growing sounds quite wonderful. I am envious. I live in a small apartment in a very expensive city, so not much opportunity to grow anything here but I’d far rather be somewhere else if I’m honest. However everyone needs to be where the work is, that’s reality I guess.
I now have an appointment at the arrhythmia clinic so I’ll see what they suggest re medication. I’m realatively new to AF but I do have a moderately high ectopic burden so I’ll just have to wait and see. 😀
Perhaps you are aware that the blood tests which determine vit D levels in the blood are for circulating calcifediol not the cholecalciferol that most people take in the form of vit D supplements. A possible explanation for the discrepancy between high supplementation and low levels of circulating calcifediol is a liver that is not doing it's job properly as this is where the first hydroxylation takes place to produce calcifediol. This might well have been the case for me as with 3,000 iu of cholecalciferol a day I could not make it into bottom of the desirable range let alone midway. With the calcifediol drops prescribed by my GP no problems. I have never suggested that vit D could be used to treat AFib or indeed has any affect on it. I do think that it has a profound effect on general health. Nor am I suggesting megadosing on a permanent basis. I have simply pointed out that here in France where I believe vit D deficiency is taken far more seriously than it is in the UK ( having experienced both medical systems) it is common practice to prescribe loading doses to bring levels up quickly. I have no idea what "You do you" means. A typo?
I will be interested in your results. I was deficient and had AF, then I had an ablation and didn't have AF and was still deficient. Now I don't have AF, am not deficient in vit D and feel very well.
Thanks. Your experience is very interesting, as was your reply to bantam12 above.
I will PM you my result as you requested, hopefully by the end of the week.
Re the sunbathing, not at my age, but I admire your suggestion, and at your age too. Sadly it seems absorption of Vitamin D through the skin in older people is much reduced.
Sensible sun bathing is still a good idea. UVA provokes nitric oxide formation ( lowers blood pressure) and the infra red melatonin in the mitochondria. The sun is healing - there are interesting books about heliotherapy which was used in the early part of the last century notably for TB before the advent of antibiotics.
Yes, I spent the first 23 years of my life in sunny Sydney, with a lot of almost naked "beachwork", surfing, and swimming, included.
But now in UK I live indoors with no outdoor area or sun access. With polio related mobility issues I cannot even walk in my local park, or anywhere else, scantily clad or otherwise.
My effort re absorption through the skin is mainly during my daily 30 mins cycling exercise where I always wear shorts. Not much skin exposure to be sure, and I am dark skinned, but it's all I can manage until I move to an old farmhouse in France, preferably having space for organic vegetables and herbs. I could sunbathe naked amongst the vegetables. (Not a pretty sight that! Probably scare the insects as well!)
Acting on advice from quite of few other AF'ers on here I bought a book by Michael F. Holick entitled the "Vitamin D Solution: A 3 Step Strategy to Cure our most Common Health Problems.
It is a bit too technical for me, quite boring in parts because the author at times sounds as if he is on a monumental ego trip in respect of studies and research he has done or has participated in. But, if you go through it and pick the eyes out of it there is much fascinating substance about the use of Vitamin D which he describes as being more of a hormone than a vitamin.
Holick is probably the foremost vit D researcher in the world so perhaps he is entitled just a little to his ego trip! It is awhile since I read it but I did not get that impression - I must read it again!
Yep, I do understand. He keeps alluding to his successes. That aside, I am having my horizons stretched and getting a sound understanding. I have abandoned reading ( at the half way stage) it as a book but rather just picking out those bits which appeal to my inquisitive nature. Then as I progress and I find a reference to something I just back track. I'm certainly not into studying it as a text book.
The one thing that I have noticed he doesn't differentiate ( well not yet anyway) between sunlight and daylight. Here in Cornwall there is a massive difference. As a bus driver I am an outside worker but the weather here is certainly not always sunlight. Yep, I am covered by virtue of the bus design ( drivers cab) but whenever I get the chance at the end of a trip or whenever I get a chance I get out of the bus but mostly that just gives me exposure to daylight. So, I have no idea how much natural vitamin D I'm getting. not much I suspect 😱
Vit D formation is affected by the amount of cloud cover but some will be made . I seem to remember the slip ,slap , slop brigade saying we should use sunscreen on cloudy days. It is also affected by air pollution so people in cities will make less even on sunny days. I find the most useful bit of Holick's book are the sunbathing tables which are near the end . I think they are for sunbathing in the sun so on a cloudy day even if it was warm enough you would have to lie out for longer. At our age though we cannot bank on making sufficient vit D from sun exposure though Dr Mercola claims he is able to maintain a level of between 150 and 200nmol/l by walking on the beach for 1 hour a day wearing only shorts and a hat. But he has year round Florida sunshine. I sunbathe most days it is sunny from March to end Oct except during heat waves when I do not go out at all into the garden.😕. I don't do it for the vitD but for the other benefits. It maybe tops up my vit D a bit but for that I rely on my Dédrogyl.
I had a level of 18 and thought I was dying! Took 50,000iu weekly for 6 weeks snd now 1000iu daily. Everything played up, heart, kidneys, joints, vision you name it! Will read article later. Thank you for sharing. Take care 🦊
really interesting article. The ethical issue preventing RCT trials is a very important one and affects other health research, this alternative way of researching such a good approach.
There have been some very confounding studies to date, and some have been questioning the natural tendency we have to assume that if something is good for us lots of it may be even better! Supplements such as Vit C have been over used and can be damaging. The good news in this study is that “steady but sure” relatively small regular doses are best.
The puzzle is how to get out of a low level, I wonder what the factors causing low level are? OH takes a PPI which apparently reduces normal absorption so takes a bit D supplement with it.
Here in France a very low level is corrected by a one off loading dose of 200,000iu or even 400,000iu. This is perfectly safe and will bring levels up quickly - within a fortnight. A maintenance dose can then be prescribed. However the tendancy is to give these doses once or twice a year with nothing in between. This is not such a good idea as studies have shown that daily or weekly dosing is better. But if the level is very low then it can take many months to correct without a loading dose.
My daughter was found to have ‘catastrophically low levels of Vit D’ which appears to have been caused by coeliac disease - she was taking vit D supplements to no avail.
From NZ I was tested and found to have sufficient Vit D. As you know one needs Vit D to absorb calcium from foods.
But care of Vit D in pills should be with care. A friend was supplementing Vit D but trouble.. veins on his nose showed broken bursting veins. Dr said stop the Vit D.
I think he was taking it for depression.
NZ has plenty of sun winter or summer.
We are asked to get out for the early sun without Sunscreen. 20mins a day.
In 2015 my wife told me her Vitamin D was low, and I thought - wow, I don't believe mine has ever been checked (I work inside in an office, so not out in the sun like I was as a kid except for when I mow the lawn on the weekends). So I asked my doctor to check it, and sure enough it was low at 27. He sent me to an endocrinologist who put me on 50,000 units of D2.
I decided I wanted to see someone else about this as well and went to see Dr. Robert Kominiarek in Ohio who billed himself as "America's Fitness Doctor" (he now runs Renue Health - renuehealth.com/about-renue..., and he changed that to 10,000 units of D3 with K2 daily.
My D levels were better but still weren't exactly where I wanted them (they were in the 40's) , and I asked my general practitioner, and he said "What are you taking them with"? I said my morning smoothie. He asked what was in it, and recognized that there was nothing with fat in it. Apparently, for vitamin D to be absorbed properly, you need to take it with something you've eaten with fat, like eggs and cheese. After making that change, my D levels now range between 70-90 (depending upon how much sun I also get).
I also did a 23andme genetic test and then processed those results in a different online genetic system (livewello.com) and learned that I have a genetic SNP called the VDR Taq, which stands for Vitamin D Receptor gene. The heterozygous genetic SNP means I have a 40% reduced capacity to process D, which is why I need 10k units daily to get my levels to where they should be.
I would also advise everyone to remember that if you live the US, don't necessarily go by FDA recommended levels. Those aren't levels recommended to optimize your health, instead, they are the bare minimum. Do your own homework. Good luck!
But everyone, if you live in USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, France, Australia, S Africa, even N Zealand, or elsewhere, do try to find time to follow my link and actually read the article/research !!!!! That was my hope.
Sorry to hear that you are so low in "D." If you buy Vitamin "D" supplements with 5000IU value you should reach 70-80nl within 30 days. Taking 10,000 for 15 days should do the same. I take 5000IU every other day and have great "D" levels. Besides all the other essential things vitamin "D" does for us, it makes you very unlikely to get any Covid infections or at least they will be mild as it really in my opinion is just a tougher flu.
Thanks for your reply. The units you mentioned "nl", is that nmol/L? I presume so.
If you read the article (please do, and the purpose of my Post) re Vitamin D and mortality rates (including from heart issues), it seems the positive effects taper off after only 50 nmol/L, a much lower level than a lot of supplement users seem to strive for. I will be happy to reach 50 nmol/L. That's 20ng/ml in alternative units.
My loading dose 6 months ago was 20000iu per day for 30 days (much higher than I now think necessary), with a maintenance dose now of 3000iu + 100mcg K2 per day. I hope I haven't caused myself harm by this regime. I got a retest for my Vitamin D level a week ago, but the NHS in UK "moves exceeding slow" (even that an understatement) and I won't know the results for at least 10 days. Fingers crossed.
Re motorbikes, my claim to infamy is that I managed to crash my brother's Suzuki 650 back in nthe day wearing only a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops. The gravel rash went head to toe along the length of my front, and I couldn't even sit on the toilet or wipe my arse. Too much information? Well it is funny now. Back when I was young and foolish.
My two Honda Magnas, Minnesota Magna bought in 1982 (over 53,000 miles) sold it after that photo. At right is the "Cal Magna" Bought it with 1042 miles, now over 8,000.
The remaining "Cal Magna" I moved aftermarket shocks, seat and luggage rack to Cal Magna. I had both rebuilt - carbs, hydraulic brake and clutch cylinders, fork seals, tires on MN Magna. I also had Progressive Suspension front fork springs installed into the Cal Magna to match the Progressive Suspension shocks. God willing I will ride until about 72.
Sadly at 75, with polio weakened muscles in my arms and legs, I would now be unable to pick it up if it ever fell over or tilted to one side. I would be OK in full flow at top speed as long as I didn't have to stop (for petrol).
How about a lighter unit like some of these ebikes? I have two, one for my wife and one for myself which I ride when weather OK daily. espinbikes.com (Nesta) and samebike.com dual battery unit. If I don't pedal, i can go about 80 miles on the dual battery unit, about 25-30 on the Nesta (About 70lbs with all items shown.)
I like that I can get some exercise, but the assist helps and if my left knee gives out (I need a new knee joint), I can use throttle only to baby my knee.
Sorry, I was replying regarding the motorbike - but he has just bought an electric bike as he has bad knees and really likes it. Just don't run out of battery going uphill...
But what did you/he think of the article which was the title of my Post?
Nothing personal, it's just that I seem to have sabotaged my own Post by mentioning to a previous contributor that I crashed a motorbike. Lesson learned. It's the article/research that I was hoping Forum members would find useful and comment on.
I read the article, sorry I should have commented, and thank you for that. I found it interesting, although I take fairly high doses of Vitamin D every day but it is good to see confirmation from this source (as well as many others).
Thanks for update. Make sure you get a blood test though, as the article suggests anything above 50 nmol/L gives greatly diminishing returns. Happy (motor) cycling.
Yes. A good article, thanks for sharing it. I am a natural healing/health type of guy. I have had no vaccinations of any kind since 1981 and do not intend to ever get any unless it's on the order of an Ebola outbreak where greater than 40% die. . Rarely have I needed anti-biotics as I use my own home made colloidal silver. While I have a cardiologist, I have no primary care physician since (knock on wood) I don't get sick very often. If I break a bone or seem to be having an issue, I'll go see one. I'm planning on seeing an orthopeadist relative to my left knee shortly )I hope).
If you look back at my posts, I used to be on all sorts of prescriptions for my afib. Now I only take Diltiezem 240mg twice a day and looking to wean myself off of that if possible. Nattokinase is my blood thinner. I take Ayurvedic Heart formulations twice a day which seems to keep my heart going well and allows me to do what I couldn't do while on all the DR prescribed medications including the rat poison (Warfarin).
Taking all of those I could barely walk, let alone bike or feel like doing much. Now I feel mostly like pre-afib with occasional spurts of afib but my heart rate went from average of 85-135 on all the meds to about 65 - 95 depending on activity.
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