Thought you’d be interested in this CDreamer and JeanJeannie - if you two are lurking around out there. ( got rid of yer Grockles yet ?).
I have now got to the bottom of my sudden and dramatic increase in blood pressure.
VAGAL NERVE (VN) !
It all came to a head this morning (Thurs) at breakfast when my abdomen blew up ( not literally ). It would almost be the classic example of a distended abdomen !! So the vagal nerve has been up to its old tricks but with far more trickery from it than I have experienced with past VN events.
Normally I have my evening meal at around 6 pm, bed by 10 pm and I’ll wake up in the early hours with pain and bloating just under the rib cage, left side. Mostly at this point I’ll lurch into AF, high HR and high BP.
The thing is this time it was almost mirror reversed. Read my original post of 2 days ago ” Feeling unwell - groan!” - third para.
So (in review) I ate as usual, bed as usual the early hours awake, ice cold deep inside, high BP, feeling as if I’d been mugged. As the day went on BP dropped but still pretty high ( for me) and it got stuck on 145/85 ish. Decided to ring in sick and not work today.
My view is that something in my evening meal on Tuesday annoyed the VN which then went to work to try to trip me into AF - through the high BP mechanism.
So, this morning at breakfast or thereabouts my BP was 142/89 BUT by 11.20 it was back to normal at 133/79 and later settled at 130/78. As I write my BP is 136/88.
Quite amazing - so, I have bloated like, I’d called in at my Shell garage and blown up my abdomen with an air line and it has deflated and I feel great. Back to work in the morning so if there are any Emmetts and Grockles anywhere near St. Ives and Carbis Bay ( home of the G7 fiasco) ...... outta my way.
So all this shows that with AF you just cannot assume anything in respect of cause and effect. And thank you all for staying with me. I will keep very much at the back of my mind the CoCodomol issues. Just so amazed at how great I feel and equally so amazed at the 2 day journey to hell and back..
My gut issues are all food/ingredient allergy, sensitivity and/or intolerance related. So, I can eat hard cheese with no problems soft cheese I get side effects. Onions are out, shallots are fine. Cannot eat much lettuce or tomato. Rocket is fine. I am gluten free, wheat free and oats free. So a nice plate full of hot porridge is no more.
So, I am unsure as to whether PPI's are really suitable for the above. However, I will do some research on them, and have a closer look. I feel if they were suitable then the two Nutritionists I have consulted over the years would have gone down that track.
Something I ate Tuesday evening or in the previous 24 hours would have triggered this. The wrong food seems to aggravate and/or inflame the vagal nerve which, then, because of the brain/gut/heart connection can cause quite a bit of mayhem with the cardiac system.
How awful to be allergic to so many food categories! Nothing nicer than hot porridge on a cold winter morning!
I know that many are against PPIs ( plenty of reasons to be as well) but I need to take them and as long as I don't eat late at night and stick to small portions I'm fine.
Hmm, would have liked details of what you ate the evening this kicked off. You didn't over eat at any time did you? I certainly used to get the bloated stomach, but oddly mine all disappeared when I lost weight last year. I also cut fat out of my diet and rarely eat red meat now.
Sorry to be boring about this, but you didn't eat anything that contained artificial additives in the 24 hours before, did you? Sweets, cake, biscuits, etc!
What was that coldness you felt inside you all about! It's not the time of year to feel cold, really think you must get your thyroid tested. Put your winter dressing gown by the bed so that if you wake in the night feeling cold you can add it as covering.
The coldness ...... that was a bit frightening! OK ( to be blunt) it was like all the meat I have surrounding my bones ( uniformly) inside my body were freezing. So, so different to the feeling of cold when you get up out of bed on a winters morning. No comparison. Different coldness.
What did I eat that evening. Well for starters I eat small, and not late. That evening meal - Chicken Kiev, spuds and peas. Maybe the batter covering the chicken. We try and eat as fat free as possible.
I am wondering in fact that this is a build up of different evening meals of different ingredients, types of meat, red or white, types of veg, even types of gravy/sauce.
The fact that when my bloating deflated my BP fell to normal is suggesting something I ate violated my vagal nerve and mugged my cardiac ystem ... but what ?
hi Granny, yeah, I think I remarked on this to Redders. The only thing I can think of is the batter surrounding the chicken on the chicken Kiev. I have been add salt free for around 2 decades and added sugar free for some maybe 8 years or more. Can't remember.
When I asked my cardiologist about vagal nerve irritation, I was told that this was unlikely as it was rare and I wasn't getting any bradycardia, which would be its main symptom.
Your mention of a bloated stomach made me think as I get runs of ectopic beats caused by this. Way back, an X-ray revealed that my stomach gets bloated by swallowed air and intestinal gases and pushes my diaphragm against the base of my heart, setting of these palpitations without any vagal cause. Only much later in life was I diagnosed with atrial flutter and fibrillation, but my cardiologist suggested that I might well have had these when I was younger, with the symptoms being put down, instead, to anxiety.
I've often asked about food allergies and similar, but these have always been dismissed as far rarer than people think and was told that the causes of my problems were physical and likely caused by the bloating issue.
I think that is the stock sort of reply from conventional doctors who were trained years before they could actually see what is happening at the cellular level. They have only been able to do this very very recently. I was told by the head of my GP practice that doctors are by and large very conservative and it takes many years for something new to become mainstream.
The cardiologist I spoke to was a very modern doctor, I would say, at a leading teaching hospital. Vagal “irritation”, usually caused by some sort of compression I’ve read, would lead to bradycardia as well as a wide range of other possible effects, given the large area of innervation served by the vagus.
He didn’t discount it as a cause of arrhythmia but felt it would be rare. Ectopic beats leading to afib caused by stomach movement (or, I guess oesophageal and intestinal spasms) does seem the more likely as they are a commonplace occurrence and the link with palpitations is fully accepted and observed.
Ditto here. My GP, Cardiologist and EP are very experienced forward thinking, open minded medical professionals, who look at every possibilities. Keep in mind they do this for a living, are passionate about it, and their "spare time" is spent researching this stuff.
There’s a lot of distrust of doctors, I can see from various posts, but I am lucky with mine.
The “vagal nerve irritation” theory seems attractive and has developed an internet following but I can’t actually find much science behind it, except as an unusual phenomenon affecting a few young athletes.
There is clear scientific evidence, however, that both the stomach and oesophagus can physically affect the heart in certain individuals thanks to their anatomies, and that this can lead to ectopic beats which are linked with fibrillation in prone individuals.
It’s all very fascinating but I prefer the latter explanation as any vagal “damage” would surely be far reaching and wide ranging.
I hear ya...it's not like my "Dr Google" findings replace my doctors' PhD's and their years of experience, research and collaboration. And oh ya..they also have access to the internet...so when they tell me.."well Dave, we feel it's not vagal, but please do get a second and third opinion" and I do, and still the verdict is the same, I would tend give Dr. Google a rest 😏
To be clear, I do understand no all Doctors are created equal, and some people are "stuck" with a physician who appears to not have their best interest at heart, and I am truly sorry for that.
Just re -read your post and the exchanges that followed. I cannot see anywhere where any of you have talked about food, its ingredients and properties and most certainly GP's have absolutely no idea of the interaction food and the digestive system and heart and the VN. No idea at all .......... it seems that you've all just wiped the slate by just referred to the digestive system and its components. This is why I referred Redders to a Nutritionist, this category of professional understand food, and by food I also include drinks, alcoholic and non alcoholic.
A GP is, by name, a generalist and has not had the training of a Nutritionist. Ditto for Cardiologist and EP.
I do agree at least one part and most certainly accept where you are coming from. I would argue that there is far less science available to support nutritionists’ views and that not all doctors are “generalists”. Indeed, trials to show the effects of nutrition can be very hard if not impossible to carry out, and placebo controlled, blinded trials are an essential part of the scientific method.
But, as you say, we surely do not know enough about the long term effects of nutrition. I’m not sure, however, that nutritionists always do. I can well remember, for example, being told animal fats were dangerous. Now, we know that - within limits - the body can metabolise animal fats perfectly safely and that it was artificially made “trans-fats” that were a danger.
Did you find out what caused the VN to make you bloated ? I have the exact same symptoms, bloating under the rib cage. I’m having a cardioversion on Tuesday but with this bloating I can’t see it lasting. Any suggestions carneuny ?
Hi Redders,
Nothing specific that I can identify. However, reflecting on my meetings with two different Nutritionists over the years I can only test the theory by not eating Chicken Kiev. I suspect the batter surrounding the chicken or more relevantly, the ingredients of the batter. If I have Fish and Chips I always remove the batter, why I didn't do it with this meal I'll never know.
Its like this ..... if you discuss the VN with a Cardiologist/ EP you will get most likely a negative response as has appeared on here in the last 24 hours. If you discussed it with a Gasteroenterologist you will be supported..... as to its influence.
In the US they are much more advanced in their research into the VN and just how what and why it is so significant in this relationship with heart and digstive system. So much so that it is regarded as in information superhighway and the body's second brain. If you Google Schematic diagram of the VN you'll see just the extent to which it governs many organ functions in the body, not just heart and digestive system. Ideally read stuff researched in US. Not much happening here in Britain.
Since we all respond differently and are indeed different I can only fall back on my stock asnwer, best to discuss these issues with a Nutritionist. They have a much more professional take on the gut and food and far and away leave GP's, Cardios etc in the shade. Hope this helps.
I know you are used to taking it but do you think the Paracetamol might have something to do with the bloating? I ask because I find that it makes me feel bloated and always wanting to burp. Glad you are feeling better.
I hadn't considered it really because my focus was on doing anything to get pain relief. Certainly the bloating and burping is there and has been for a while. But then the wrong food does exactly the same thing ! And talking to Mrs Carneuny she admits we have been a bit slack with diet lately and given ourselves some 'treaties'. Would the CoCodomol cause a rapid rise in blood pressure ? For me, food does and can also ( and often has done) trip me into AF.
So all I can do now is to reduce the CoCodomol and give it a whirl. I must admit that the Chiropractors efforts and accompanying exercises/stretches are starting to give some benefits but its a damn slow process. (I'm impatient). Today I have managed to survive on 2 CoCodomol ( at breakfast), if I get a reasonable sleep and little pain overnight I'll try NIL tomorrow. Oddly enough this pain rarely affects me when I'm bus driving at work or when off duty in day time.
Next interesting thing is that following my call to 111 yesterday, and receipt of a report from the 111 team my GP now wants a telephone discussion - scheduled for next week. This also gives me the opportunity to discuss with her alternatives to CoCodomol.
I find my arthritis pain worse in the morning and even worse late evening though fortunately it rarely stops me sleeping. During the day it wears off. I now take Tramadol occasionally if I am going to be doing something I want to be in less pain for - like going on small holidays on the bike . It kills the pain better than paracetamol but has it's own disadvantages. Terrible itching as it wears off . Also I am very aware of the potential for addiction or having to up the dose to get the same effect so I "save it for special occasions". Like today when I had to go to the clinic for what they call a prepatory course before my next hip op. Basically a lot of boring sitting around in a chair that could be classed as an instrument of torture ( I have a bad back too!) interspersed with x rays , physio pep talk and visit to the anaesthetist. What with the journey there and back and lunch out afterwards ( that we only got by the skin of our teeth as the course overran and we were 50mins late for our reservation )I was sitting for nearly 9 hours. Even with the Tramadol my back was playing up by the time we got home. The trouble with painkillers is that basically they are all poison so you are balancing not being in pain against more subtle damage that probably only reveals itself in the long term. Sorry to be so gloomy. I bought some Boswellia from Healthspan . It is supposed to be a more natural painkiller but I have not really given it a proper go yet. You need to be patient and stick to the exercises but I know how you feel - I am impatient too!
Now that's all very interesting. Can't think why Tramadol rings a bell for me but it does. Maybe I've had it sometime in the past. Pre knee replacement ?
Now a question, I've just read up on Tramadol - has some appeal even if it is poison - do you take it along side any heart rate control meds, like Bisoprolol. Bisoprolol holds my HR at around 62 - 67 bpm day in day out - however - every now and again it chucks a wobbly and drops HR to around 46 to 50 bom for a good many hours. Then it picks up again - as it did in fact earlier this week when I had the massive jump in BP.
Can you use it as a pill in the pocket, an as and when basis.
I know you may think i've lost it but the left shoulder pain is only at night. Day time no problems, although I think gripping and turning the steering wheel, car or bus isn't probably doing anything to help the cause.
FYI, I'm now fairly normal ( giggle), BP 110/69/ HR 73 however ( that swings the opposite way and is a bit too low) quite a few wobbling heart icons showing up indicating BP monitor has detected irregular heart beats.
In the last 2 days I have managed one day with minimal pain and no CoCodomol, and I have also cut back on food and "treaties". The test will be when we go to a BBQ tonight and I'm tempted to 'carry on' as I used to in my younger days in Sydney in summer ( or winter).
I do take a very small dose of Nebivolol. My prescription is actually 1.25mg. Because for some reason low dose pills are very expensive this comes as a scored 5mg tablet that is easy to break into quarters. But for ages now I have taken only a third of half the tablet giving a dose of about .8mg. Recently I have cut it back again to get. 65mg as frankly it does not make much difference to my daily normal heart rate but it does make a difference to my asthma. I think that though Nebivolol is better than Bisoprolol I am better off without a beta blocker and eventually I will try and wean off altogether. What I really need is an efficient PIP for during attacks as the Nebivolol is not as good as Bisoprolol for reducing my heart rate when in afib. Nobody has ever suggested Flec and I would not really be keen on trying that either as I hate trying new drugs! I don't have any problems with BP except for in stressful situations. I went for my jab last week and my blood pressure was higher than it has ever been when the doctor took it pre jab. I really did not want to be vaccinated but felt forced to because of going in hospital for my hip op next month. As for the Tramadol I do use it as PIP either as a preventative if I want to do something that I know will bring on a lot of pain or that I cannot do without pain ( ie I cannot raise my left leg sufficiently to get it on the pedal in order to climb on the bike), or sometimes if I just get fed of the pain and want a break. I have a fairly high pain threshold. I was a dancer and pain is often part of that. I have performed with a sprained ankle! Very foolish but it was my first performance (luckily short and part of a group) and missing it would have been devastating . When I had my right hip replaced last Dec the physio in the clinic was gobsmacked when I told her I only took the morning Paracetamol and that was enough. She remarked that she had noticed that the Brits felt less pain than the French- as if we were some sort of animals! The reality is that on the whole the French are far less stoical and complain more about pain and all sorts of other inconveniences! Which is why they have a better health service. They would be out rioting in the streets if they had to put up with the NHS. When I tell them how long you have to wait for a hip replacement in the UK they look at me as if I am telling porkies. I discovered the "benefits" of Tramadol with the discharge prescription the surgeon gave. 3000mg Paracetamol AND 150mg Tramadol per day! I would have been comatose with all that. I have never taken more than one 50mg capsule per day and I find it lasts me about 10 hours.
What do you mean by "treaties" ? Do you suspect they might be contributing to your pain. What about days off from driving ? If you notice a definite diminution that's a smoking gun!
Aaaaaah! yes .... "treaties" .......... they are the forbidden foods that I love and really miss and can range from a Crunchie bar to a Chinese meal in a Restuarant, (not the rubbish packaged stuff you get off a supermarket shelf) through to Redcurrent Pie .... any pie ..... Gooseberry Pie ! Draught beers on tap in a pub .... any sort of food that historically can kick off my AF. In fact - we normally eat as bland as possible and I minimise my beer consumption as bland helps control BP and AF kicking off. Its mechanism is food/drink affecting the gut. Ooooh for a plate of escargo 😁 I'm sure that'd be OK. Maybe not !!!
The " treaties" don't affect my pain but sleeping does if end up on my left side. Or sudden jerky moves where the shoulder acts as a hinge if you see what I mean. Sudden reaching above neck high. So, days off from driving - pain wise I'm usually stable ..... until a weather change is on the cards ..... I have a digital weather station, I'm not a weather freak per se, but if I see that barometric pressure drops to say around 990 mb or less AND HUMIDITY rises to say 95% or higher, say 98% then my pain will be very intense. When I talk to my GP about this her eyes glass over. Always make sure I have plenty of pain relief handy then. Unfortunately, here in Cornwall we are exposed to the worst of the winter weather when the changes come from the south west, Celtic Sea and North Atlantic. Winter is coming. Actually, I'll sound my GP out about changing pain relief but I have my annual health review on 20th Sept so I might bounce it around with the Surgery clinic Nurse too.
I have similar problems with the weather. The Chinese have known for millenia that weather affects health. If you change to an opiate like Tramadol ( and you'll be bloody lucky if they give it to you) you will only be able to take it occasionally not on a daily basis. On a daily basis you risk addiction and having to up the dose to get the same effect. The 30mg of codeine in co Codamol can do the same but the minimum dose of Tramadol is 50 mg and I think it is stronger than codeine anyway. My GP prescribed me a similar thing with 30mg opium powder along with the Paracetamol and it's not nearly as effective as the Tramadol. Also Tramadol has it's own side effects. Like the itching . It also constipates normal people but I don't get that so much with having had the colectomy. I know what you mean about raising the arm. When I had the rotator cuff tendonitis in my left shoulder I had to get my husband to do my bun as I could not not lift my left arm enough. But the fact that your pain improves when not driving probably means that as long as you are driving buses you will be stuck with it. I loved Crunchies when I was young. Then I switched to dark choc Bounty bars I don't think we have either of them here. But we do have great ( though expensive) chocolate shops.
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Why doesn't the medical profession recognize Vagal AF?
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Vagal Nerve stimulation
