Hi everyone,
Just wanna ask a question.
Well we know what 'asymptomatic is' ( the state of being in AF and not knowing it, having no symptoms). So, what is the polar opposite ........... i.e., can you have symptoms, be fully aware of them in a physical sense in the chest, either mild or dramatic and it not be picked up on either Holter monitor, handheld ECG device, or the BP monitor with AF identification built in.
Anyone got experience of this ? Thanks.
John
Good question! No answers but I'm curious.
Can I just check my understanding - you are feeling strong sensations (hyperthetically or personally) which are not showing as irregular HR or rhythm on any device? Everything looks normal?
The only scenario that I can think of which I have encountered and experienced is Autonomic - Fight or Flight = Panic Attacks.
Hi Susie, yes, your understanding is correct. I'm experiencing feelings that are not showing on any device, i.e. according to the device I am normal 🙂 Anyway, thanks for your comments on your experience. Hadn't thought of that.
John
A panic attack would register as increased heart rate and force, surely? I think increased "cardiac" anxiety can create a wide range of symptoms. Also, if your arrhythmia symptoms are in any way related to gastric issues, such as reflux or hiatus hernia, then it might be the latter have flared up. This is certainly my own experience.
Steve
ANS - Sympathetic Fight&Flight will affect digestion as well as breathing and heart and has numerous presentations. Panic attacks come out of nowhere and we often do not realise it is a panic attack and palpitations is a recorded symptom.
Very difficult to pin things down sometimes as to what is causing which symptom, especially when you have multiple conditions to manage.
Having suffered and studied these diabolical things to try to get to the bottom of it, I’m not fully convinced that science can yet pin down their cause (or of anxiety, GAD, and so on).
The “fight or flight” analogy is certainly the most commonly given, but having had some electrophysiological work done on me years ago in an attempt to prove that fight or flight was the cause and thus to help me reduce my anxiety levels, the psychologist scratched his head and said he still has a lot to learn. 😳 Adrenaline is implicated. for sure, but the cause of the anxiety - and any cure for it - seem as far away as ever, sadly.
The best help guides that I’ve ever read for them are now rather old and were written by an Australian doctor called Clare Weeks. She had an unusually insightful and sympathetic understanding of anxiety.
Steve
So many known unknowns and then the unkown, unknowns.
My experience of working with many people with anxiety is that there are so many different facets - the purely physical, the worry which enhances physical symptoms and the imagination and perception. Our body is so complex and interactive that the old mechanistic paradigm of cause and affect I found no longer useful in this scenario.
I used Field Theory as a theoretical model to underpin my work with anxiety ie:- Everything of the Field affects the Field - including the observer. And Polyvagal Theory which is now being researched in a lot more depth as a linked but separate nervous system to the ANS.
I will certainly look out for Clare Weeks because we often need to go back to basics.
One of the physical precursors to a bad AF episode for me in the early days is what I can only call an Adrenaline rush - interestingly it happened most often when I took a particular driving route home, so much so that I started avoiding that route which was the shortest. I wasn’t consciously thinking of anything and it wasn’t until during a therapy session that I linked it to childhood feelings of insecurity and a recurring dream that I still had occasionally. In the dream I was a small child and in my father’s sports car and my father driving too fast (my perception) and suddenly coming to a very steep hill and looking round to find my father vanished and I was on my own and very frightened. Once I worked through the links I stopped having the dream and that particular hill was no longer a trigger. I still avoid taking that route though! 😱😊
Fascinating and very Freudian. My nature is far too rational! 
More Polyvagal than Freudian. Certainly will challenge the conventional viewpoint of physical illness.
Hi CD
Well its now 2 am on 2 October and I was woken up at 1 am with the most searing heartburn imagineable. No good going back to bed until it had all settled, however, in these wee hours it did prompt me to go back to my original post and the various replies .... from which I have drawn much comfort as the process has enabled me to reshape/crystalize my thinking.
So, the one theme that I keep returning to is CDreamers responses and before I make a more detailled reply I’d like to ask CD, (or anyone else for that matter) in the context of ‘fight or flight’ ............ can hypnotherapy be a methodology in dealing with ‘fight or flight’ issues and have you had any experience in this area at all CD ?
Thanks, John
There are a lot of modalities for promoting the balance between Sympathetic (Fight, Freeze & Flight) and Parasympathetic (Rest and Digest) modes and hypnotherapy could be one of them.
It’s worth while doing a bit of research and looking at really simple things to promote digestion especially - Never eat on the go - our body needs to be in Rest and Digest mode in order to be able to digest our food properly and that involves all of our senses so - sitting down at a table with a conscious intent to eat and to start that process with a few deep breaths. Look at the food you are about to eat and then smell. Taste your food and chew - first on one side of the mouth, then on the other - it may sound daft but you wouldn’t believe the difference this makes. Slow the whole process down and take your time to digest your meal after eating.
I found (and I posted at the time) that I had to remain seated in the same place for about 20-30 minutes if I was to avoid AF but this also applies to heartburn - which thankfully not experienced for about 5 years although it used to be a daily occurrence! Abstain from eating for 3 hours prior to bed.
Look at vagal tone - you can measure this by looking for an app which measures HRV or heart rate variance - these guys have been researching this for many years - unfortunately they have recently been evacuated because of this years out of control bush fires - but that’s an aside
heartmath.org/articles-of-t...
HRV is an indicator of how well you can respond and adjust to your internal and external environment eg: how well you can self soothe yourself in a stressful situation whether that be physical or psychological. Athletes use this measurement frequently as a guide although knowing your own range for optimal performance is very individual. I’m not an athlete and I know I function best with a daily average HRV of 20-30 which is calculated by App on my Apple Watch.
Other strategies to improve vagal tone :- various breathing methods, cold water exposure - these days I do this in a controlled manner - warm shower for 10 secs and 20 sec cold shower. Yoga, Tai-Chi, Mindfulness, Meditation, walking/working in nature, just doing things that you enjoy which releases endorphins.
Personally I have learned that when I feel frustrated and want to ‘get on with things’ is the exact time I need to slow, stop and work on my need to do that because the reality is that we need these systems in balance - we need to be able to achieve and that sympathetic system (F,F,F) drives us to do that but when prominent at times we should be resting and digesting - it disables us.
One exercise that I used to teach was to settle on a chair and do a body scan for tension - few deep, slow breaths to relax any tension and then to imagine in your mind an image which for you represents the word BALANCE. Focus only on that image whilst you take 6 long, slow, deep breaths in and making the out breath longer. It’s a good practice to do before you start your day and now I’m going to take my own advice.....for once 🧘♀️
Hope something in there helps.
Thank you very much for your time in making these comments. I have a few days off coming up soon and so will spend some time going over your writings.
John
I did have a holter monitor at one point and pressed the button several times when I thought I was feeling palpitations but there was nothing on the trace when reviewed.
Maybe we get so dialled in to this condition that we start to imagine events are happening?
Interesting, there have been times when I have sensed something feels not quite right, difficult to explain but like AF may be lurking but pulse feels OK. Haven’t gone as far as checking with my Kardia but generally if I do something to distract the sensation(s) disappear. I guess we tend to get more sensitive and aware to changes!
'morning Flapjack,
Yeah, that's it, like AFlut or AFib is lurking but everything is registering as normal. Exactly, even taking my own pulse is and feels normal.
Yes I feel like I'm hyper aware of everything my heart does!
No ectopics showing? I’m thinking indigestion or microvascular angina (coronary artery spasms)? I don’t know if those would show on a holter, be interesting to know.
I should add that over recent weeks my GP has organised a number of 'investigations' into my heart behaviour. The last will be on Friday when I have an ECHO. This will be the first ECHO since the first was carried out at East Surrey Hospital in Reigate the day I was first diagnosed with Paroxysmal AF. ( 10 & half years ago).
So far everything is normal. So maybe this is playing on my mind ... although ... I have never been disposed to mind games in my life. ( Thus far).
John
Hi John, for what it is worth I frequently get strange feelings in my chest or solar plexus which do not reflect what my -pulse is doing. My only conclusions is that since the right side of the heart does not affect the pulse then maybe something is happening there? Either that or I have become a timelord. lol 😁 A proper 12 lead ecg would decide (or should that be 24 lead?)
Hi John
I won't forget the time I struggled to keep conscious and my wrist pulse appeared normal. When the paramedics came they were surprised to find my heart was racing away, but this wasn't reflected in my wrist. They hadn't ever seen this before, but the consultant I saw at hospital knew all about it. Sometimes the heart rate can go so fast that it doesn't register in our wrist or arm.
Jean
Jean,
Thanks for that. Looking at your last sentence ...... wow! That's so spooky. Well amazing in fact.
John
End of day, up early in the morning for an early start .......... just want to thank you all for your comments. Something for me to chew over between now and Friday when I have my ECHO.
I did have a 'funny' today at lunch time and as I was at home was able to link up with my handheld ECG device .......... for once it recorded an event, which the device described as ........... "suspected short beat interval. HR 73".
This is a rare occurrence - the capture and recording I mean.
Looking at all the comments everyone has kindly made it would seem that from time to time we all feel a 'funny' occurring but seldom can we " capture and record, much less explain it." Gives weight to what we all know, and what Bob has stated time and time again .... we are all different ! Yet within this difference is a mystical common denominator.
Thanks again.
John
I had the feeling I was going into af last Saturday, with a racing heart rate and high blood pressure but in A&E this was investigated and put down to stress. Panic attacks are very similar and you sometinmes have no idea which it is.
I had the "funny" feeling one day this week. B.P. machine showed normal but I couldn't get a reading from my Kardia. The feeling was bad enough to make me rest all day. I often get this feeling when a bout of afib is on the horizonon.
I'm no Doctor so can only relate to my limited experience but could these be stress induced. I've found stress can manifest itself physically in all sorts of ways you wouldn't think and I would certainly include what you are describing. The fact that you are concerned enough to raise it may mean that you may at least be subconsciously anxious about this and possibly other matters.
I know it sounds crass and easy to say but if they haven't found anything wrong with you enjoy your good health as it's not something to take for granted.
I have the last investigation on Friday, 2 October - an ECHO. As I said previously it will be the first one I have had since the original some 10 & half years ago. It will be interesting to see if the heart structure has changed in anyway in that time, particularly the left atria which was singled out as a problem originally.
Further, an interesting bit, I am well past retirement age and still work - I drive buses and pass all my DVLA medicals each year. I never ever have any issues when on duty or bus driving. Anything,/everything that happens is either on days off, weekends when off duty or when I am on leave. Mrs. Carneuny says that I just have to keep working. .... forever!!😂😂😂😂
I’m sure we’d all be interested in an update after the ECHO.
Hiya Buffafly,
Well, had the ECHO, nothing to report until I get the word from my GP in about a week and half. The guy did make some off the cuff comments at the end of the process .... 1) all valves working fine. 2) my, you can certainly see in the L Atria where the AF hit. Not much doubt. And then as if to keep me calm he added - its not normal size but it isn't the worst !!!!
So, I thought .... great
John
There may be a clue as to the cause in your full reply 😃😃😃😀
A couple of years ago when I had a loop recorder I felt AFib sensations and my BP machine showed afib, but when I went in for a device check their check didn't indicate the numerous number of afib incidents in the month of June that I had noted. There have been other times also that my information which I track at home does not coincide with what is read when I have a device check in the doctor's office. It has been frustrating for me.
Like you I've wondered if others have had similar experiences .
Ablation for asymptomatic afib?
Running with Polar HRM - M400
Should one asymptomatic and isolated AF episode be medicated?
Asymptomatic AF
Opposite direction
