Buoyed up by others' positive experiences in changing from Bisoprolol to Nebivolol, I finally went to my GP yesterday, saw a different one, and told her about the debilitating tiredness I have, regardless of how much I sleep at night. She expressed some surprise that 1.25mg would have that effect and then dug a bit deeper, and brought out a depression test. I was bristling initially as I had been relatively upbeat when I went in but went along with it and the result was more a 'possible'. She asked what could have affected me and then the floodgates opened with the bereavements I had last year. She was so kind and empathetic I couldn't stop the tears. She listened intently and offered such useful insight into the effect of stress and grief on AFib and on our lives. So I am going to be checked that there isn't a physical cause (diabetes, thyroid) so blood tests booked for next week. She prescribed nothing (I'm happy with that) and once any other cause has been eliminated will make changes to medication if I think it will help and if I need more. I left and looked at the clock - I had been in there 45 minutes.
I am still euphoric about her care and involvement and feel so much for others here who have less than positive experiences with their GPs.
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irene75359
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You know Irene I think one of the most wonderful things in this world and the greatest gift we can give anyone is to just 'listen' to what they're saying. Not so that we can respond immediately with our story, or talk about Mrs Brown down the road having the same thing ten times worse, but really listen, absorb and care about what the person is telling us and stay focused on that. It sounds like that's exactly what your GP did and I'm so pleased to hear that. Please let us know the outcome of your blood tests and how you progress.
I’m so glad that you have had that experience with the doctor. Sometimes you can feel so much better just from having someone listen to you and ask you questions, it’s so rare these days especially in connection to your health. I watched an amazing documentary on Netflix called Heal that explores the difference in healing both physically and mentally when the patient is given a warm and positive response and feels safe. It was really interesting and makes such sense.
I hope you continue to feel supported and that continues to help you feel better. Take good care 😊
Talking of that I have just read your 'wobble' post and added a pep talk and I want to add that it is clear from your replies that you are a very sympathetic and articulate person. I don't know what your job was but there certainly is a need for someone with your qualities in the world and it would be a shame to waste them because of chronic ill health if there is a chance of improvement 💗 It may be a gamble but it is a gamble with very good odds X
I’m literally sobbing from your lovely words buffafly. Thank you so much. I’m a housekeeper at the moment for a lovely family, I’ve worked there for years because it gave me the freedom to finish at 3pm and be with my children. However my children have both flown the nests as have my boss’s and I’ve stayed with that job even though I’m a very sociable person and felt very alone there and not very happy. I’ve never shared this with anyone, I don’t know if I even realised it until I read your words but one of the main reasons I stayed was because I could hide how bad my heart situation had become from everyone and I didn’t feel like I could do anything else with these heart problems just knocking me for six. I haven’t been at work since January, I had a really bad episode in December at work and they are so worried about me working alone (they are abroad for months on end) that we decided it was safer to take time off until I’m truly better.
I feel like I might be coming to a big period of change in my life hopefully starting with a successful ablation. Thank you so much for being so kind and helping me today x
I certainly hope so, but even if the result is not 'perfect' I am sure there must be opportunities for you. My eldest daughter is 49 and has just started an MA. This can be a good time to reflect and explore to find something fulfilling that won't stress you too much physically. Best wishes!
I know what you mean, I’m trying to accept that it could be the start of a journey with ablation rather than expecting it to cure me. I tell my daughters that expectation is the root of all disappointment so I’m going to apply that to my attitude towards this.
Going forward I want to work with people, particularly women that have arrhythmia problems. Now I just need to figure out in what capacity 😊
I'm butting in in your conversation but Buffafly has such wise words of comfort and advice. And please don't hide away here on the forum. I have benefitted immeasurably from the help of people here.
Sorry for hijacking your thread Irene, it does demonstrate perfectly though the power of the experience you had yourself with your doctor. Your day/ attitude/ hope and ability to heal can all be influenced so profoundly by feeling supported and heard.
This forum changed the way I felt today in a way that has helped me enormously and I’m so grateful to everyone for that xx
It did feel like a nice chat, you weren’t butting in if it wasn’t for your post there would have been no chat 😊 I’m pretending I know what the hijacking jargon even means, up until yesterday I didn’t even know if was called a thread 😂
I used to say that all the time when my daughters were growing up, my oldest daughter has high expectations and would do often feel let down and hurt by friends, family, teachers etc. She says it back to me now, typical eh ❤️ x
Don't worry at all about not knowing the jargon, you will soon learn. And my daughter sent me a birthday card this year which said 'Sometimes I open my mouth and my mother comes out'. Don't know whether to be flattered or affronted!
😂😂😂 be flattered. I can’t help feel a nice big glow of pride (smugness!) when hear them repeat back to me things that used to make them want to kill me 😂😂😂
Hi Kellyjelly, I empathize with your concerns about work and AFib. It can make it all so tricky, can't it? Should I work if it's too stressful? Will it be more stressful if I don't work? It just adds layers of stress.
One thing I learned about the heart from my former acupuncturist helped me a lot and I've seen how it's true in my own life. I'd gone through a phase of being really concerned and nervous about my college teaching and AF. Could I still teach a big class? What if I had an episode during class? What if I had to miss a class, or got too crabby during an episode, etc., etc.
Then, out of the blue, I got a call for a private student who'd be in town over the weekend and wanted to meet me for 4 hours for a lesson. The logistics of it were absolutely nuts. Teaching 3 hrs in the morning, over an hour of commuting to get to the private gig, then teach for 4 hrs. But my gut told me to seize the opportunity.
Here's what really surprised me. I absolutely loved teaching this guy. Just a great fit in many ways and, for the first time I really understood that nurturing my heart also means being engaged, joyful, and active in the right kinds of situations. Even if the logistics were a bit nuts. That was really powerful to experience!
I encourage you to look into seeing what kind of work you might enjoy doing. I really do believe now that this is an important part of healing the heart! It needs joy, fulfillment, and engagement, in my experience.
Thank you so much Nella423 for such a interesting and thoughtful reply.
I love the story of going with your gut instinct and finding a freedom and joy in your decision, realising that you can and should stretch yourself.
You are so right, the heart is not just nourished by good diet, sleep, exercise etc the heart is nourished by love, new experiences, laughter, learning and feeling excited about the future.
What an absolutely brilliant way to start the day with your words in my mind.
My pleasure, Kellyjelly! There's an interesting twist to the story that I forgot to mention. It reminds me that it's wise to say "no" when it feels like the best thing to do, even if it's uncomfortable.
October, when this client contacted me, was rather tumultuous, in that I was feeling the impact of changing medications and realizing I needed to change doctors. My wonderful GP had recommended the cardio I was seeing; he is a very good friend of hers. I liked him in the beginning, but found him to be rather condescending and dismissive in my most recent appt. I cried all the way home from the frustration. As uncomfortable as it was for me to do (and it was *very* uncomfortable!), I decided to cancel my appt. for that Thursday in October and look for a new cardio.
It was on that same Thursday, exactly during the time when I would've been tied up all afternoon with the cardio, that I worked with the new client's assistant to pull together all of the details to be able to meet him that Saturday. Everything fell into place; my meeting space was available just across the street from the client's hotel. I got a discounted price on it, just lots of things worked out.
The client loved the 4-hour lesson and agreed to continue working with me. We started up in January and now he wants to do even more work, 4 hours per week.
Every time I work with him, it's fun and energizing. I charge more than I have in the past and so it has taken off some of the financial pressure I was feeling.
All in large part because I said no to what wasn't working well for me!
What a brilliant twist! I love it that you cancelled the cardiologist even though it felt really uncomfortable. As women we often don’t act on how we really feel because we don’t want to upset or offend anyone. Taking control and listening to your feelings and instinct has taken you to a more positive outcome. How fantastic 😊
I’m a huge believer in fate and if we have the courage to listen to our instincts things will work out for the best.
It sounds like you and your new client were meant to meet and work together and you are both learning from your lessons.
You sound like you are really enjoying life and I love your positive energy 😊
Yes, that discomfort around upsetting the other person is exactly what I felt. AF has effectively blasted me out of it, though. I've had to find ways to politely move on if things aren't working, rather than stay too long in a bad situation. That's been quite a lesson to learn. But what a difference it makes to work with doctors with whom I feel comfortable. With the others, I always felt stressed, that I was taking up too much of their time, and that there was something wrong with me because my case didn't fit into their view of dealing with AF. I blamed that anxiety on AF, but a good part of it was strong intuition telling me to move on.
Like most of us who deal with AF, I have definitely gone through miserable, awful times. So now if something positive happens, I appreciate it more. It also helps that the supplements I've been taking (I've written other posts about them) have been helping me feel much better in general. That, too, came about because I didn't want to settle for what the cardios were telling me to do, namely take Flecainide every day, with its dreadful side effects. They had nothing else to offer, so I figured it out with the help of AF forums and generous people who have found some interesting solutions. I like how we are all helping each other in this way.
I love your approach, your honesty and your energy Nella423.
Your experience with AF though difficult seems to have ultimately changed you and your life for the better. This is something I’ve been thinking about for the last few weeks. I might write a post about it, I wonder how many people feel that way?
Yes, I've definitely felt that way and have been considering writing a post with that theme. AF has pushed me, ruthlessly, at times, to bring my life into balance, in many different ways.
I have found, again and again, that when I feel very anxious or have a really bad episode, there is something I can learn and probably something in my life needs to change. So I change it. I don't waffle around anymore or worry about what others may think and that kind of thing. It's had a streamlining, focusing effect. I do my best to be kind and respectful, but if I need to leave a situation, I do it.
Following your heart rather than your head can lead you to so many interesting and exciting places. If it feels right, it is right for you at that time.
Hi Irene, I'm so happy to hear that you had such a good experience with your GP! What a difference it makes to be heard and treated with kindness. It's wonderful to hear about your experience.
I wanted to chime in to encourage you to ask your GP to also test your hormones, if that isn't already in the plan. I will share more in a separate post about my recent follow up with my new naturopath, but I have been just blown away by the difference I have been feeling the past few days after starting to take an adaptogen (MacaPause -- femmenessence.com/femmeness... to help with balancing my hormones.
I had had no idea until recent bloodwork that my estrogen levels were so low; this can cause various symptoms, including depression and anxiety. It's definitely worth checking out!
That's really interesting, that hadn't occurred to me. I think she ordered a comprehensive blood test covering many things, but I will know next week. Thank you.
No, I won't, unless there is a drastic improvement or another cause. But here was a GP that was taking the time to look at the whole picture and not rushing me in and out. I was so impressed.
It makes you feel so good when you can talk to a doctor I was the same but I feel so much better now
1.25 mg of bisop put me to sleep in 40 minutes for every pill I had. I woke up 4 or 5 hours later feeling terrible ( "drugged" would have been my simplistic description then) , with pain in my arms and upper chest, no exercise tolerance, I could not run 100 yards because of the limit on my heart rate. I have been perfectly fit only 3 days earlier before I discovered I had Afib, and was asymptomatic even when in afib at 165, so the difference was immediately obvious it was owing to the bisop.
So whether or not you have depression you can tell your GP if people cannot tolerate bisop, they cannot tolerate bisop!
I was not much better on Atenolol, another beta blocker, so my GP wisely switched me to verapamil, a calcium channel blocker, and then the tiredness was gone.
Well, I think/hope it is the bisoprolol. She was quite open about how bisoprolol is the drug of choice and that she had never met a patient who couldn't tolerate a low dose. I actually believe her as she was so sincere and prepared to invest so much time in me. However, I told her about the forum and how many are affected by even a low dose, she certainly didn't dismiss this and will look at my drugs again. I think perhaps many people don't question side effects of medication with their GP, or visit forums and put up with side effects.
I was only on a very low dose for a short period of time. It made me very lethargic, very down and suicidal. As soon as I stopped taking it I felt so much better. Now on a calcium beta blocker.
Just wanted to say my experience of bisoprolol was very similar to KMRobbo. It made me so poorly, my brother too. I was on 1.25mg and went from normal to hardly able to walk to the loo within days. The impact on my mood was really dramatic too, feelings of hopelessness and lots of really odd sobbing. I am a bit of a cryer but this was different, if my brother hadn’t of started mentioning mood changes I’m not sure I would have realised it could be the tablets. I lasted 3 weeks and really couldn’t function so stopped taking them. My brother was switched to a few other beta blockers and couldn’t tolerate them either so he was eventually put in Vepramil and is a lot better. Hope this helps 😊
Yes, it does. My daughter said to me a couple of years ago, very gently, that I seemed in a daze and not with it. Forgetful and not concentrating. This was before all the major events so I am convinced it is the bisprolol. Thank you.
Be really good to get to the bottom of it all. It’s awful when you don’t feel good and you’re not really sure what’s causing it. I have a feeling that the Bisoprolol definitely isn’t helping. Let me know how you get on 😊
So good to hear this. Sorry you have been through so much, but hopefully the tide is turning for you. My life has been very stressful too, with losss of daughter at young age and a son who is special needs. He's brilliant though and I fight tooth and nail for him. Shame we cant get him a paid job in computers as he is so good at it, but we will in the end! My present doc trys to do her best for me and we even have a walk-in appointment system, so very lucky. Previous surgery was not so hot!
Just wanted to mention I hooe this lovely doc checks hour thyroid with all the neccessary tests and not just TSH. Also T3, TPO, TGAB, Ferritin, Folate, Vitamin D, B12. There may be others I havent listed. Labs often will not do these and I appreciate doc hands are tied with this, but it would well be worth checking these or iif you can afdord it doing a private test. Vitamins also need to be optimal too, but some docs or endos dont seem to see it as theu are not trained in this sadly. Alot of folks end up self medicating with NDT (natural dessicated thyroid) or T3 which we have to get privately as T3 is £9 a tablet in this country, but can be brought abroad odten for a few Euros. Ridiculous state of affiars and not improving even rhough discussed in Parliament. Also once you have the results you can post on here and others with more knowledge will be able to advise you re the results. Many things can be affected by the thyroid including lack of T3 for the heart. Just done loads of research over the years. By the way you are entitled to a printout of the results.
For anybody who holidays in France and cannot get blood tests done that they want in UK they should get tested on holiday. It's really easy. In all cities and small towns there are laboratoires whose business is to take and test blood. We get prescriptions from our doc to take to the lab but for people not in the health system you just ask for the test and pay the fee. It is cheaper than private blood tests in the UK and the results can either be collected at the lab the next day or sent to where you are staying in the post. Whenever relatives come I take them down to our local lab to get their vitamin d tested!
I hope that applies to Spain, where we spend a lot of time. My friends have found the health care there excellent and our local pharmacist is very helpful.
You could ask him if there are blood labs. The system here is pretty efficient. But we live in an area of France with an aging population. I had a suspected mini stroke last week ( not really a TIA as all did not go back to normal in 24 hours) and my GP sent a request for a brain scan. The letter with the appointment arrived the next day in the post. I have had to start on Apixaban which I am less than thrilled with. My preference was for Warfarin with Coagucheck but my GP is convinced Apixaban is safer. I had bad indigestion on Dabigatran and abandoned it after a week about a year ago.
Our French friends tell us their healthcare is excellent - in fact when my mother needed a hip replacement they sourced a hospital where the cost was 50% of the UK. However I kicked up such a fuss my mother had it done in the UK soon after I got involved.
I am sorry you are unhappy to be on Apixaban. My daughter is on that for a different heart problem and as a mother of a five-year-old and a toddler she finds it much better than going to the hospital for tests (her GP didn't have testing on the premises). But I am on warfarin, my GP practice run an excellent clinic, however I self-test with Coaguchek and occasionally tweak my dose. I am really happy with this. It is the best option for me as we are in Spain a lot of the time.
I'll have to see how it goes. So far only 4 days and no apparent side effects except a bit of burping . Nothing like with the Pradaxa . I'm very sensitive to drugs. I've had to wean down to half a 1.25 mg of Bisoprolol as any more makes me feel like a zombie. I might ask my cardiologist to change to Nebivolol when I go to see him after the brain scan. The consultant fees are low here compared with going privately in UK. I pay the cardiologist and then my insurance reimburses me but his fee is about 50 € and has not gone up muchsince I first went in 2011! My sister bought a small holiday home in Spain this year.
Thank you so much for all this information which is all new to me, I never imagined that I may have thyroid trouble, so I am making a note of everything for near future use.
I am so very sorry to hear of the loss of your daughter, I just can't imagine the pain of such a loss. And best of luck in your battles for your son, they say that when you have children it brings out the tiger in you (I am talking before the term 'tiger mother', a pushy mother became fashionable!).
I was told to stop taking that dose of Bisorolol after 3 days of feeling exhausted- it brought my heart rate down dangerously- do tell your GP of my experience- as you will discover from this forum, we are all different and respond differently to drugs and doses! Good luck!
I got given bisoprolol after a run of AF which cardiologist thought was due to viral infection in 2014. It made my BP drop too low as well and i felt very tired even on low dose. I actually think the AF was not to do with that at all, but due to not being on correct dose of thyroid meds. Couldnt get above 75mcg of levo without getting palpitations. Still do get them occasionally and currently trialling NDT and T3 which i have to pay for myself due to cost of T3 on NHS. I think beta blockers also stop thyroid hormones from working properly, but sometimes we have to have them unfortunately!
That is interesting knowing about the thyroid meds, I haven't yet had all of the blood test results back yet but I am much more aware of what to look out for.
Your GP is a diamond. I remember about 10 years ago I was at a particularly low moment along the lines of "I don't know why I'm here" and I had a very supportive GP who knew I was in the male suicide bracket and who I saw weekly for quite a while.
I came out of it in the end, and after not being one to "be a pill popper" to cope with things got through the stigmas and it was all down to her.
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