Melatonin

[JoeBo]

Has anyone had experience with high dose melatonin?

[Lizzo30]

500mg ?

Do you mean 5mg ?

[Lizzo30]

Melatonin is definately good for prostate cancer However there is a caveat which is that melatonin is anti estrogen

So if a guy is on ADT his estrogen will be low - due to low testosterone bc men make estrogen from testosterone this is probably why men on ADT get arthrihis - so melatonin will have limited benefits

However if a guy with prostate cancer isn't on ADT then he is most likely to benefit from melatonin suppliment

[JoeBo in reply to Lizzo30]

Thank you

[jazj in reply to Lizzo30]

Most everything is of course better combined with ADT but ADT as we know is only temporarily effective. Melatonin functions in a completely different way and my take from this paper doesn't cause castration resistance in the way ADT does. My head exploded but I think I understood enough that Melatonin could theoretically be used both alone and with ADT. At earlier stages of recurrence it may be optimal to do high dose melatonin alone first or in conjunction with intermittent ADT. Just wondering out loud.

biosignaling.biomedcentral....

This study it doubled survival time when taken in combination with ADT during radiotherapy

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articl...

[Diana2727]

I'm on several groups on FB for cancer patients and there are many taking 2000mg/day. Doris Loh's research is worth searching for. My dad's taking 20mg at night, for the time being, but I intend to increase it.

youtube.com/watch?v=Roh4lQX...(Not working as expected?)

[Lizzo30 in reply to Diana2727]

You need to take into account that melatonin is anti estrogen

So if a woman has estrogen fueled cancer such as breast cancer melatonin will have a very good result

Whereas prostate cancer is fueled by testosterone so needs an anti testosterone agent

Estrogen is good for prostate cancer

Testosterone is good for breast cancer

[JoeBo in reply to Diana2727]

Thank you

[JoeBo in reply to Diana2727]

Thank you

[Justfor_]

20 mg before going to bed here, for 3-4 years now. Only side effect is vivid dreams.

[JoeBo in reply to Justfor_]

Thank you

[j-o-h-n in reply to Justfor_]

Best way to tone down those dreams is to have a cup of late night Turkish coffee (also you will leave mud/grounds on the bottom of the cup so someone can read your fortune)..........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n

[JoeBo]

Thank you

[Hotoneii]

I've been reading a lot of research peer reviewed papers, too many to ignore. And the risks are minimal compared to the potential benefits, specially as a potentiator for other SoC therapies. So I will be starting a high dose adjuvant protocol added to my current therapy very soon. There are tons of studies

[TooMuchTax in reply to Hotoneii]

Good to read your posting. I've also recently read about the encouraging studies on high dose melatonin for prostate cancer.

How has your high dose melatonin experience been during the last few months?

[Hotoneii in reply to TooMuchTax]

Sorry I didn't see your question earlier. I live in a place where you can only have ml by prescription. After reading hundreds of research papers, notably by R Reiter, and specially the latest ones by Doris Loh regarding biomolecular condensates, phase separation and how melatonin affects them, I could not really understand why would this mole cule be banned in some countries. There is no known lethal dose, no abuse potential and no credible proof of causing any harm to animals nor humans. But as you mentioned, there are many studies on prostate cancer and other hormone cancers as well, for which ml appears to be specially effective. So I bought 250 grams online from a reputable source. I started with 20-30 mgs, but that didn't seem to have much effect, nor side effects. It was around that time that I read Doris recommendations for Covid as well as other issues and her very articulate explanation that melatonin has on mitochondria, she also covered dosing with formulas and figures, not just rubbish. In summary, with any serious disease, anything under 2000mg will possibly not have any effect, so this is the dose I've been taking for several weeks, divided in various takes throughout the day, the larger one being 400 mg before bed in a suppository (it takes 3 hours to be absorbed this way) . The other takes are 200 mg each sublingually every 2-3 hours approximatelly. Basically, you want ml to be available to the cells constantly; this brings in the threrapeutic effect. There is no bad side effects except the ones I am having from relugolix, mostly hot flashes and no libido, and pea size balls, but I can live with that for a while. Sleeping has improved greatly, maybe one night trip ( before ml and improving diet plus exersice it was 4-5) but the best part is I can go right back to sleep, even for 1 or 2 hours until the alarm goes off, no more rolling on the bed. Supercharged with energy in the morning, no groginess throughout the day, and much much better workouts, in fact the strength has increased considerably. I have not had a blood test yet because the RO wants to wait until before the radiation on March, but the multiple visits to the toilet, double voiding, urgency, etc. etc., all that is nearly back to normal, however, I am going to get tested soon anyway because I want to see the actual numbers and not having to rely on just symptoms, also there are anecdotal mentions about ml being anti strogen, but my bones are definitely stronger ( I will have 2nd Dexa in a few months) and so is my endurance, and those 2 are definitely affected by strogens, so I need to see the figures before I believe it. I will be continuing taking this at the very least throughout the RT period; I've read many studies and reports that not only ml protects the peripheral cells from radiation, but it actually sensitizes the cancer cells to RT, regardless of the type and it will even reverse CrPC to CsPC, this on top of the effects I'm already experiencing. Please don't take any of this as advice, it is irrelevant to anyone, as we all have different traits, besides it is not good practice to ignore current standard recommendations, although I guess that's how people got to the moon. Yes, 2000 mgs/day, not a typo

[jazj in reply to Hotoneii]

Melatonin is the latest substance I am revisiting in with a deep dive. I've written about it here before and posted studies. There are some big holes though in reliable research regarding Melatonin in my opinion, as is the case with most non-pharmaceuticals. Evidence to date is promising, but like 90% of all non-pharmaceutical studies, their conclusions always include "further research is necessary."

The first grey area is dosage. Probably the most powerful study on Melatonin, involved only 3mg and it excluded the Winter months. It had no significant effect on low and intermediate risk PCa patients but a very significant effect on survival for high-risk. Risk and stage are not really one in the same but I think it's safe to say, anyone here with confirmed metastatic diseases falls in the high risk group. Most other studies, many involving other forms of cancer, used one time 20mg dosages in the evening.

The next grey area is dosage timing. There are no studies I could find that involved taking large doses of Melatonin during the daytime. Yet, in my opinion, logic dictates if melatonin has an anti-cancer effect, is the cancer not active during the day so therefore you don't need to take Melatonin in the daytime. I think not. Melatonin is not recommended to be taken during the day because it may make you tired and may disrupt the normal circadian rhythm. There is a significant body of evidence that disruption of the circadian rhythm increases the chances of developing cancer (night workers have higher incidence of cancer.)

When you take melatonin at night, low or high dose, you are essentially in my opinion "amplifying" the peak of melatonin in the Circadian rhythm. If melatonin has anti-cancer effects at all times in a 24 hr period, my hypothesis is that it may actually be more beneficial to take a high dose melatonin in the evening and much lower dose (maybe 1/10th to 1/4th of the evening dose) in the morning. This is for two reasons: (1) there's evidence that the melatonin to cortisol ratio is inversely associated with cancer progression. Cortisol is highest about 8AM in the morning, when your melatonin supplement you took that previous evening has worn off!!! and (2) cancer doesn't stop growing in the daytime.

With that said, the big grey area is because none of the studies involve taking lower doses of melatonin in the daytime, we don't know if doing that would potentially disrupt the circadian rhythm even when taking higher doses at night and if that disruption could render the benefits of taking melatonin to impede the cancer no longer effective, or even potentially be counterproductive! So the big unanswered question for me is would there be any negative effect on the circadian rhythm if you took significant doses (3-20mg) of Melatonin once or twice in the day starting in the morning, as long as you took a much higher dose at night (at least 5 times the dose of during the day or something like that.)

I shouldn't be surprised since it's not a pharmaceutical, but I am surprised that none of the studies considered doing lower daytime doses along with the nighttime dose.

So taking large doses of Melatonin at times other than the evening is at this point based on a theory and not any clinical evidence. While melatonin itself is very safe, it still makes me very leery about potentially messing with my circadian rhythm with no clinical evidence regarding daytime melatonin usage in combination with nighttime higher dosages.

[Hotoneii in reply to jazj]

I agree that people who are seriously ill should not experiment unless they know what they are doing. 20 mg melatonin would probably make someone's cancer worse, as it can be both an antioxidant and a pro oxidant, depending on dosage. Same with IVC, it does not work for PCa but it does for many other cancers. Most of what I read ( non scientific) about melatonin is incorrect. It does not cause the (my) body to stop production, no circadian disruption, no nightmares nor agitation but it does give me energy and clarity in the morning right when cortisol is supposed to kick in, it definitely modulates my immune system as many of the joint pains I had months ago are gone, so it does not work the way most people think it does. I would suggest learning about biomolecular condensates, liquid-liquid phase separation, the emerging evidence those have in cancer formation and the role melatonin plays in all of that