Exercise: Is there any doubt that... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Exercise

RSH1 profile image

Is there any doubt that exercise is beneficial for APC, cardiac issues, weight, bone health, etc.?

The erase trial primarily involved non-advanced prostate cancer patients. However, the NIH has numerous studies showing benefits for advanced prostate cancer patients. I have not yet seen a negative study but will entertain all possibilities, whether I like them or not.

oncology.medicinematters.co...

53 Replies
Darryl profile image
DarrylAdministrator

The ERASE study’s primary investigator, Dr Kang, and I spoke for an hour yesterday. Though the study was small, it’s outcomes are impressive.

Of course not! Performing just 30 min of moderate exercise, five times a week could be more powerful than many drugs. However, physical activity does not promote weight loss (as many believe) , for that you must do a diet change.

Gemlin_ WROTE --- " ... However, physical activity does not promote weight loss (as many believe) , for that you must do a diet change."

NOT TRUE FOR ME!!! Adding exercise back when in my 30's and maintaining the same diet/caloric intake DID INDEED RESULT in weight loss AND as I increased intensity I consumed more calories just to remain at a steady state.

My exercise has always been beneficial unless I did something (STUPID) that caused physical or psychological harm, which has happened.

Impressive - because weight loss is pure mathematics. What you put in you and what you burn (exercise). The number of fat cells is constant throughout life, they only increase or decrease in size. It is the number of fat cells, the eating habits and the exercise level that determines how big we are.

Hey Superman we don't all fly like you :) Your level of exercise far exceeds most normal men of any age.

Afraid that PCa is become my Kryptonite lately so no more high flying rides like a few months/years ago. BTW, only 3,250 miles-47 driving hours from my garage and I'm at Lk. Padden 🏌️ Course. 😀

So your back on earth like us mere mortals. Considering your recent encounters maybe you just need some time to recover fully? Anyway considering your ride the other day I wouldn't be upset with that mileage, if I did I would be upset with my own. Is that 47 hours of riding by bike ?

47hr. by car not taking pit-stops into account. lol Tonight the winds are to be 1mph so going to try for a longer ride

Wow 1mph, that would be nice. I'll watch for it. We are hiking tomorrow and hope to ride Sunday.

ENJOY ! Will look for your post

HI HO-HI HO-It's OUT the DOOR I GO!!! 👍👍

i live near lake padden, are you in bellingham,

I'm in SW FL. Year round cycling where we never have dry heat.

My exercise adds about 3000 cals to my weekly budget. I have to eat about 3400 a day or I lose weight. But if I just eat as much as I want, badness will ensue. I did just that for the last 8 weeks and put on 6 lbs of muscle AND 4 lbs of fat (I was downing over 4000 a day while doing heavier weights and more strength stuff).

That's where diet comes in. I'm cutting down the calories and increasing the protein and working out differently. I hope to remove that stupid fat.

dhccpa profile image
dhccpa in reply to Gemlin_

Agreed. Coca-cola spent millions a few years ago, hiring top scientists to promote the idea that exercise was the key to weight loss. It fell apart once exposed.

pilot52 profile image
pilot52 in reply to Gemlin_

I do not agree....if you increase caloric burn and keep intake the same depending on the amount of exercise you will lose weight...to see a faster change you do both. Reduce calories and increase exercise. Blue Skies

Gemlin_ profile image
Gemlin_ in reply to pilot52

Agree - weight loss is pure mathematics. But it is easy and takes no time to eat 500 kcal less per day, but burning 500 kcal per day in the form of exercise takes up to an hour and can easily be fully compensated if it leads to eating more (feelings of hunger increase after exercise). Thats why weight loss by changing diet habit is usually more successful. Diet and exercise in combination is of course the very best.

RSH1 you are in the know on exercise may I make a query? The article concerns HIIT, which is the one thing where I have failed to maintain strength with my thrice weekly all out sessions at the gym, whilst on ADT. I have had to dial down the resistance on the exercise bike. I do just three 20-second all-out sprints with two minutes very slow pedaling between, three times a week.

Do you know offhand if doing it more e.g. daily, or doing a greater number of 20-second bursts (phew!) or reducing the interval resting time, is likely to regain my peak HIIT capacity? Not that easy to find trials comparing quantity and methods of HIIT, There is e. g. the Tanaka method, but I find no head-to-head comparison between that and the way I do it.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

If you can do regular weightlifting it is likely better than HIIT. HIIT is fine but studies show that simply focusing on strength and muscle mass is the best way to stave off cancer mortality.

So just a resistance program would be awesome. Nothing wrong with HIIT. I personally do not like it and I think it's important to do something you can maintain.

I do stationary biking for maybe 20 minutes a day (40%-60% of max heart rate - best for fat loss for the intensity expended). 4 or 5 hours of weight training each week. And sometimes I'll throw in a Tabata (good ones for me are ab cycles, crunches, kettlebell swings and kettlebell squats).

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to RSH1

We have similar routines! I do 3 hours of weight training weekly, about 45 minutes of biking doing my errands most days. A little agility exercises too and Qigong plus meditation to start the day. It´s great to stick to the routines and feel them work.

Tabata -about eight 20-second all-outs with just ten seconds rest in between, right? If I were to do that on the stationary exercise bike I would have to dial down the resistance lever successively after the first two intervals or so. Tabata must be a killer compared to my HIIT!

I am in awe of y'all being able to kill it with the routines you maintain.

I just got back from a HOT and HUMID midnight bike ride and am dead tired. Have to keep hoping that cooler weather is only a few months away. A 51.15 mile ride AT NIGHT in 81F temp and 100% humidity sucks eggs.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

Excellent. I use a massage chair and an inverter to start the day. I should try to pick up meditation. I know it has lots of benefits and would help me still my sometimes overactive mind :)Tabata: yes. Tabata is very intense. But the intensity is in a way that appeals to me.

RSH1 wrote --- " ... I should try to pick up meditation. I know it has lots of benefits and would help me still my sometimes overactive mind :) ..."

I use the 3 hours to 10+ hours out riding to meditate. Also have GREAT CONVERSATIONS WHEN NOT MEDITATING with me, myself and I. 😀

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to RSH1

With meditation first thing in the morning my hyperactive mind stays focused. Without it I have to fight to concentrate my mind wants to race off.I miss doing it about once a year.I used to do 20 minutes meditation. The last years it's first 11 minutes qigong functions like meditation for me calms my body followed by 10 minutes meditation focusing on my breathing, this works better.

There is no doubt at all.

There is no such thing as a ‘negative study’ on the benefits of exercise. The original question baffles me. What are you after?

The results of studies of the benefits of exercise, regardless of age, physical condition, presence or absence of disease, are all positive, 100%.

There of course people who say exercise is overrated, you die anyway, you only have a certain number of heartbeats and exercise uses them up quicker, point to athletes who died early from heart attacks etc etc. They are akin to flat-earthers and are best ignored.

In the replies I notice promoting and comparing various types and amounts of exercise. This is a slightly more interesting discussion.

However, if we keep in the Pca realm, we know that-especially if ADT is involved-a good cardiovascular base, lean muscle mass, caloric restriction, balance and mobility are all important. Those who only walk, or only ride a bike, or only play golf or only lift weights will be missing critical parts of what we know as ‘exercise’.

HIIT, zone 2 or MAF training, different programs of weight lifting, yoga, Pilates, sports and more all provide benefit, and should be included if possible.

. Probably for men on ADT the most non negotiable would be the weights, but since heart disease kills FAR more men than Pca ever will, best add the cardiovascular exercise as well. Oh and the flexibility, balance..also important….never mind. It’s all important.

The vast majority of older guys exercise little to none, this is the sad fact of the matter. So of course ANYTHING is far superior to nothing.

However if, as in one of the replies I were personally to ever train at ‘40-60% ‘of my maximum heart rate, very little would happen. 40% is barely moving for me. Yet this is a productive thing for many.

Cycling-guy is happy with his cycling obviously and should be. I love how he brags about it. Seriously, I love the enthusiasm! I hope it’s not all he does but the achievements are impressive and unusual- especially at this age.

So I’ll brag once too: During the pandemic, when gyms were closed and trying to by weights was similar to procuring toilet paper where I live, I was left to resort to bands and calisthenics for strength training. I am fit but looking back I’m still surprised I was able to work up to a PR of 1000 push-ups in 26 minutes while on Lupron.

On the other hand, I started with 300-1000 in 30-60 minutes every other day working up to it, and was already somewhat strong so there’s that. My only point is it’s absolutely amazing what we can do, age and or disease no matter.

I realize many of us have limited time or motivation to do all these things. Again, any exercise at all is better than none.

As I’ve said a few times on this forum, I strongly believe the most profound data on the benefits of exercise for diseased patients are years away, but when they arrive they should surprise no one.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

A positive study certainly doesn't surprise me. I'm not after anything other than to potentially help motivate others to exercise.

The latest NIH studies that I have read conclude that someone with prostate cancer who is in the top 25% of psoas muscle strength has a hazard risk reduction of 80% (the psoas is a large leg/spine muscle). Their results show that someone in this category WITH prostate cancer outlives the average American man!

Again, I haven't seen any negative studies and I can't think of many possibilities. But I do think it is important to have an open mind.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to RSH1

RSH 1, I have a open mind to anything on God’s earth except a negative study on exercise lol.

Even if one were to exist, it would be nothing more than the exception proving the rule.

I suppose I’ll keep an open mind, but I’m sure not putting much effort into it on this one.

Also: of course Gemlin, cycling alone is not what we want. Except maybe the amount that Cycling~Guy does. I don’t know where you get your information, but even casually we know serious bikers have some of the strongest legs of all athletes. That this could result in bone density loss in the legs and/or hips seems implausible. What is the source of that statement?

What can’t be disputed is that cycling does relatively little for upper body strength.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

Agreed. If I ever find a negative study, I'll weigh it up against the thousands of positive studies... Exercise is the closest to a closed book for me.

With 1000 push-ups you have a right to brag 😉 you are a living testimony to the pc drugs not having to debilitate your muscles. Keep it up!

We swim upstream, it’s what we do right?

As with so many things it sucks, but fantastically less so than the alternative 😃

33Ford profile image
33Ford in reply to London441

I like this! Pairs well with the waterfall analogy, LOL.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

Wow! 1000 pushups is great! Keep up the awesome work!

The cycling-guys should be aware of :

"Cycling has a variety of health benefits, however, research has shown that it does not help create strong bones. In fact, depending on the amount of cycling you do, it may even decrease your bone density. So, if your only form of exercise is cycling, you may end up with weaker bones than those who are inactive."

Those on ADT knows that osteoporosis is an important complication of hormone therapy!

My onc gave me 5 years in 2014 (haha still alive and kicking, hard) but then said guys who exercise regularly live 50% longer, statistically speaking. I think he was right. I’ve been doing gym 3 times a week since he told me that. It’s a bitch but it’s a healthy bitch.

Because I am taking Orgovyx (Relugolix) I watched a segment broadcast at the 2021 Zero Prostate Cancer summit that dealt with orally administered ADT. The featured speaker was Dr. Daniel George, one of the primary researchers on Relugolix at Duke U. Dr. George was adamant about the value of exercise in combating PCa and the side effects of ADT. He especially was emphatic about the whole notion of emerging "frailty" caused by ADT. Dr. George strongly emphasized the importance of leg strength in combating such frailty and said that leg presses are key in that regard. I've added those into my routines. I also added in Bosu ball balancing with weights and that has been quite effective. It's a bit tricky getting started with the Bosu ball while also using dumbbells or weighted gym balls but a little practice makes it work. Here's the link for anyone interested in the oral ADT topic and Dr. George's comments on avoiding frailty:

youtube.com/watch?v=TbKEonh...

Leg presses are fine but I believe squats and deadlifts with barbell are even better, using more minor associated muscles plus balancing. RSH1 and Explorer 08 emphasized leg muscles which is correct but I recall one study showing substantially more deterioration of upper body than lower body strength from ADT so I put even more emphasis on the former.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

I think that upper and lower and core are all critical. Weight-bearing exercises are great for those who can do them.

I estimate my upper/lower split as about 60%/40%.

Squats, deads, barbell rows, hex shrugs, standing military presses, pendulum squats, landmine exercises, all good stuff.

Leg presses are a good alternative to squats if you have knee issues.

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to RSH1

As I see it, the hex shrug sticks out in the exercises you mention. It is a rather isolating exercise, targeting only the traps plus to a smaller degree the rhombus. . Isn't it better on the whole to engage more muscle groups in the same exercise, reaching the traps e. g. in the deads? Am I missing something?

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

No. I mention it because it is an exercise that doesn't involve the joints much. So, it's easier for some of us to do as we get older. Leg extensions, hex shrugs, and leg curls are all isolation movements. But they are 3 of the few exercises that I have kept my strength on. I use almost double the weight on leg curls that I did at most times in my life (even when I was bodybuilding in my 20s!). Deads are great but I can't use enough weight to really hit my traps.

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to RSH1

I have read up on it, you are right hex shrugs will target the traps more than any other exercise. I will try it out.Is there any landmine exercise you think is substantially better than anything you can do with bar- and dumbbells, plus pull-ups, side planks and all other body weight stuff you can do? I ask because starting landmine will entail a possibly substantial effort in learning a new technique which I have a resistance to!

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

I'm no expert on landmine exercises. But my favorites so far are Viking press squats (you'd need a Viking attachment for the landmine - I don't know if it's worth it since it takes up a lot of room).

I love one arm landmine military presses. Recently I started doing them with a band (under my feet and then looped over the landmine bar).

I also really like these:

youtube.com/watch?v=epdBIT3...

youtube.com/watch?v=wpGPfLm...

And the basic landmine back row is good. I'm not sure what it buys you vs a standard BB row though. BB rows seem better to me because you can row back from your shoulders to your gut (better activation for lats).

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to RSH1

Thank you! Will try this.

You are correct about squats, Purple-Bike. Dr. George emphasized leg presses as a way to avoid frailty and, therefore, fall risks for older gentlemen - such as myself. Also, I had a total hip replacement and my surgeon emphasized half-squats for me, not full squats. And, per your suggestion, I also greatly emphasize upper body - - I just added in the leg presses and Bosu ball workouts for the legs.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Explorer08

If you use resistance for the half squats have you looked into kettlebells or holding a heavy plate or a dumbbell?I understand about the knee issues. I used to have to do half squats with very light weights or leg presses, and sometimes I couldn't even do those so I had to resort to leg curls and leg extensions (leg extensions wreck the knees of many people but for some reason, I've never had a problem with them).

After a decade or so of knee problems, they've gone away in the last few years. So now I can finally do heavy squats. I'm wary of joint issues coming back so I usually do pendulum squats. They're great!

ADT might deteriorate the upper body more than lower, but it’s evened out by age causing more deterioration in the legs. This is the fate of old guys who don’t work legs, disease or not.

Also, agreed that squats are superior to leg presses-it’s the king of weight bearing exercises!

However, many men are carrying too much fat to do them safely, or have ‘knee issues’ as was stated, or weak ‘minor’ muscles as you put it. Also poor mobility/flexibility.

The bad news is if you can’t drop your hips, engage your core and squat properly you should leave them alone.

The good news is almost anyone can develop that good squat form simply by doing them with body weight only, or wall squats, which are even easier.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

I almost forgot about wall squats. They can be as hard as you want them to be! Hold as long as you can. My son and I have competitions to see who can last the longest. He always wins.

Explorer 08 and London441, you are so right, squats are not for all each one has to do what is best suited for him.And you are right too, London441, about age affecting lower body strength more, I recall that fact now, so it evens out the extra assault on the upper body from ADT. We get hit from both attackers I suppose it's good that it evens out! We're doing great doing our best keep it up!

treedown profile image
treedown in reply to London441

Starting Squats today, I played a season of Kickball and at the last tourny my quads on both legs froze up after my first kick and run to first base. I need to be ready for fall season :0). So much bike riding has not addressed all muscles adequately apparently so started hiking more a couple weeks ago and will start weights. I have neglected doing much since covid closed the gym.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to treedown

For sports, don’t forget to stretch before AND after games😀

For me I believe there's was a good reason someone put an X in eXercise.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 09/04/2021 8:05 PM DST

Note: that this is coming from someone who has exercised all my life. I was told by my doctor and the nurse from my insurance that I should not exercise. that includes a fairly long walk with my dog in the morning and afternoon. When you have advanced cancer and you have lower hemoglobin and lower platelets they do not advise any strenuous activity. As they put it, I would be tearing down muscles , not building any up.gJohn

P.S.

perhaps further down the road than a lot of you but as a comment says that everyone should exercise and it’s good for you, I just need to add that…Eventually exercise can be bad for you.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to greatjohn

Good information ... and also I am sorry to hear that. I hope things get better for you.

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