What have people found effective to control development of breast tissue while on ADT? I am 3 months in on ADT and have always had larger pecs....but noticing they are getting bigger. I know this needs to be proactive....so what are possible approaches to controlling this? Thanks
ADT and breast tissue development? - Advanced Prostate...
ADT and breast tissue development?
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JPnSD
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Good luck! I have developed some nice “a-cups” after about 6 months of ADT... luckily no soreness associated with them.
in reply to TrashPanda72
As long as they’re not double D’s then it’s no biggie . I m an a a cup myself probably .
Only 2 things which can control breast growth(1) Tamoxifen 10 mg tab once a day. (2) Radiation to breast area. Talk to your doctors about these options.
Tamoxifen 10 mg/day
Talked to my MO about tamoxifen. He said it worked well for women with breast cancer, but he advised against it for aPca man boobs. My 5 yr old grandson assures me mine aren't big enough to feed his baby sister and nowheres near as big as him mommy's.
Your MO has not read any oncology book/journal for last many years. Look at study below:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/297...
Tamoxifen is working good for me. I am on Bicalutamide 50 mg a day. No Cups.. not even "A"
No big thang ! Please Watch recently deceased “ Meatloaf “ in Fight club. He had some Bazoombas! .. for me with over five years of constant adt and no t .. I have extra fat deposites around my man boobs . I too once had pecs. But this isn’t muscle . It a itchy, slightly irritating ,puffy thing . No major pain .. a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things... it’s a common side effect..I don’t want to take any more pharma ..but each to their own . take care 😎
Thanks to those suggesting Tamoxifen. Ironically my mother was treated with Tamoxifen when she had breast cancer.
Tamoxifen certainly works, but some still have concern with possible side effects. One thing to note with tamoxifen use during the pandemic, is that how it might hurt/help in relation to COVID-19 is still unknown. I read one theory that it might help promote COVID-related clotting, but another researcher suggested is should be the subject of a clinical trial to TREAT it! (I tend to side with the former opinion over the latter, myself, and decided to take a break from it.)
I take tamoxifen and it works. I do experience some incremental side effects: more fatigue & anxiety / irritably. I only started in August, but I have been starting and stopping and for now this works. I take it for 5-10 days, then start again when I have growth. Hopefully this will continue to work. 10mg
You have bigger things to worry about, so do not sweat it. You might have to start to wear a tighter T shirt to keep them from flopping around and hurting-I am serious about this.
also, the less medications you take the better!!! This also applies for dealing with many other side effects as one goes along, but again, every drug has side effects and also create more issues for your body to have to deal with, so less is ALWAYS better unless you have to start on any.
I have lost 30 pounds by switching to a whole food plant based diet, no meat, dairy, alcohol or processed packaged foods. I also exercise, mostly walking but moderate weight lifting as well. No issues with breasts.
For me calorie intake along with hiking and rowing. Slight increase after 11 months of ADT. Haven't gained any weight over all.
I second that if it has anything to do with it or if it’s a coincidence but two years in on ADT, plant based diet, lots of running, weights, push-ups, stretches and so far, so good. I think the exercise and push-ups have a lot more to do with it but the healthy diet is not hurting .
I work out more than most, and it’s less noticeable if you’re fit and not carrying extra weight for sure. I still took the choice to control them though-to each his own on the vanity! Same with the Tamoxifen. 10mg daily for me has worked well with no side effects.
When I started Lupron in 11/2018, the oncologist said I WOULD gain weight; he had never seen otherwise. So I feel pretty good that it can be controlled, even reversed.
I have been on Lupron + Zytiga for 18 months. No wait gain or side effects. Lots of exercise! Does wonders for minimizing side effects IMHO.
Exercise daily....on Firmagon (painful monthly shots). I wonder if there is any difference. I used to have large testicles...only medium now 
Yes, we are all medium to mini to none now. I have a lupron depot shot every 6 months. Hip is sore for a couple of days. The Great Firmagon vs. Lupron Debate. I've heard Firmagon is "better" and that monthly or semi monthly shots are "better". I seem to be doing ok so far.
There are some older males who develop breast tissue idiopathically (can't find the reason) and is not PCa/ADT related. I understand the solution for them is surgery to remove all the breast tissue. Unfortunately, at least some insurances will not pay for this. This would be expensive at a hospital (I am USA based so this is my perspective) but probably less-so at an outpatient Plastics Surgical Center.
My boobs aren't that bad but I have tried to exercise and keep my weight down. On the plus side, my wife assures me that I have re-grown enough head hair to attempt a decent comb-over.
Hair is nice 
You grew head hair??
Yes, although baldness is a binary state; I definitely have more hair on top.
Had radiation. Works well.
Did radiation reduce tissue that developed...or just stop continuing growth of tissue? How many courses of radiation? Thanks for your response.
There a small amount of fatty tissue developing but it got no bigger. May have reduced it some.Just a single session - less than 10 minutes.
Hugh
I'm on bicalutamide since Sept. 30 and recently had the radiation treatment. Did not have any issues until late Nov.
Good that you are inquiring about this. It is curious that urologists don't volunteer information on tamoxifen or radiation treatment before prescribing ADT. I didn't know that there was a preventative until I learned about it on this site. By that time it was too late. Again, why are urologists silent on the subject? Treat the disease but not the man?
Thanks to advice obtained in this group, particularly from Tall_Allen, I learned about Tamoxifen 10 mg about 3 months after my husband started bicalutamide. Husband is a skinny guy and did have some tenderness, not exactly painful, but sore and getting sorer. Once I learned about Tamoxifen, I asked the RO about it. RO was happy to prescribe. The Tamoxifen did completely reverse the gynecomastia for my husband, but perhaps because he'd been on it for only 3 months.
My breasts have not developed enough to play with. I may need to get implants. Enjoy.
My tits are my active airbags...
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Tuesday 12/15/2020 5:47 PM EST
I had "man-boobs" when my weight at 59 in 2006 got up to 102Kg, and BMI 30. I had fat all over me.
But in 1992, when I was still working at building work, and cycling about 200km a week at age 45 in 1992, I was about 83Kg, with higher muscle % and lower fat% and I looked very well. But sore knees put me of the bike and building work, and I began doing electronic work in 1994, and the weight just piled on, maybe aided by Celebrex and Vioox for knee pain, which stopped any exercise.
In 2005, I did have double arthroscopy to trim cartilages in both knees which got me off Vioox immediately with reduced pain.
So after realizing how bad I looked in 2006, I thought a return to cycling could be tried so cleaned up the bike in mid 2006, and by 6 months weight went to 83Kg, and man-boobs vanished, with other fat, and average speed on bike went up, and I got super healthy
even though I didn't race in bike in local club as I had for 6 yrs before 1993, and I did not do any building work.
I got real good on bike and once cycled 52km with average speed 32.6kph in 2008, on a road with a few hills, and weight was about 83km, and I was well into routine of 200km a week in 2 rides a week, or 3. I changed diet to more raw green vegies and less meats and carbohydrates, and nothing processed, with sugar, or from take away, that all helped.
Some cycle rides at 61 were 150km, and I felt very well indeed. In 2008, One doc said "You are too healthy to have cancer", but I felt I already had Pca, because semen flow stopped, and I needed to get up once a night to pee, but Psa was only 4.5, so no examination happened.
But at end of 2009 I was diagnosed Gleason 9 Pca, which turned out to be inoperable in 2010, so I began ADT, and this made no difference at all to weight or to the km I was cycling but my average maximum speed went down to about 28kph on same road where I set a record of 32.6kph in 2008.
I've had ADT since 2010, with a couple of brief pauses to see if I needed to be having ADT, and I had EBRT, Cosadex, IMRT, Zytiga added, then chemo then Lu177 which all did not get rid of Pca, and right now at 73, weight is 77Kg, and fat remains low and I have a flat chest and belly, so I look real well, and I am cycling 200km a week. I could be dead in 2 years if I cannot find something to keep Pca low, and may try Ra223 soon. Psa is now 7, after 2 months of not much increase or decrease and after 6 doses of Lu177.
Last Sunday I cycled over 4 hours for 93km at 21.5kph average, and yesterday did 73Km at 23.5kph, a fast time for the hilly course in urban area with lots of stops and slow downs.
A year ago, I had a small intestine blockage due to adhesions of intestine to scar tissue at gut surgery site where docs cut me open to remove PG, but could not, due to too much Pca wrapped around PG. I lost 8Kg in hospital in 11 days. But since then I put a bit of weight back on, mainly muscle, and I remain flat chested and flat gutted, so I still look real well compared to so many other men over 50 who are overweight, and blaming medications rather than changing their lifestyle to eat very differently, get off the alcohol, and do an average of 1.5 hours a day of difficult aerobic exercise, 356days a year.
I am now 77Kg, BMI < 23, waist > 95cm, resting HR < 48 most days, and yesterday I overtook a lot of other ppl on bicycles. One over took me, he looked about 60, but I caught him up at a stop at traffic lights, and I thought perhaps he had a 50Watt electric motor in his front wheel because hub was large, and a battery might have been in a bag fixed to handle bars. Well, he got further ahead up this hill we were on, and most bike motors can't make bike go faster than about 25kph even down hill, so I caught up to him going down hill and left him so far behind he could never catch up to pass me again.
If you want maximum benefit from hard exercise, you cannot get electricity to do the exercise for you.
Obesity in Australia where I live is at high levels, and I can understand why some wives have very low libido - their husband is 20Kg+ too heavy and he is just not attractive or able to arouse any interest in sex. Well, I see as many women who are fat and the effect is to repel husbands, but then who am I to speak because I could not keep any woman on the porch for longer than 3 years, and Pca ended all possibility of sex after 63, by which time most women have had a menopause, ie, "have paused from men" which means entirely finished with sex.
So ppl sit around and eat and drink and give up doing enough to look real good.
I sure do know how to get rid of man boobs. And getting them had nothing to do with medications; it was pain that stopped exercise that allowed the unused calories in food to be converted to fat and caused reduction of muscle mass, so eating less calories is essential where you cannot exercise. Ppl try to say they have metabolism problem or thyroid gland problem but really, its will power to control what goes into stomach, and many just cannot
control what they eat, and wives often don't help even if they show they care by feeding the man very well, which is killing him with kindness. I found women didn't like me telling them when they got heavy, or how to feed us both, but I refused to go under any thumb of anyone advocating or practicing habits that I thought were bad.
My local doc is concerned about the high blood pressure I have when I visit him. So he has lent me a gadget to measure BP at home. So far, BP is low, and not too low, and HR 43, indicating superb fitness. I have to record BP for many readings during a week, and I might try taking the gadget out on bike with me in a small bag, because I am curious as to why docs at hospital measure low BP after I cycle 17km to see them about my Pca.
Patrick Turner.
TMI
Does TMI mean "Total Miss Information" She has a relative MT, aka "Miss Terrey", who does not knows how to answer questions about most things, but rattles on for hours about anything leaving you unable to discern anything useful from what she says.
Patrick Turner.
That's a difficult question to answer lest I be classified as an equal to Miss Terrey.But I can briefly say I met Kwyta Phew Miss Terreys in my life, and before, during, and after the usual youthful Pharnakling Around on a Sunday arvo I wood kid myself that I understood these sheelas. But quickly I found much understanding of anyone else was impossible. What they said about something wood change. I tried to make sure what I said indicated how I felt and thought and how I spent my money, and what my humble life ambitions were, and many could not bear my "one-ness" and classified me as BORING!, but without realizing that their lifestyle of to flit about the world endlessly and never settle down or commit to anything was what I thought / felt was boring.
I've often thought the meaning of life is that it has none. Life just is. So I suggest you waste no time in living it well.
That last sentence sounds a bit odd as I thought you were living life well. At least by my standards. Hope your well and have enjoyable holidays spent on your bike. Too cold here and ice on the surfaces so off my bike for a few days. Best wishes.
Much of what I say "seems a bit odd" because most ppl find some sort of meaning in life, in terms of devotion to family, especially today, Christmas day, but I don't have a family of my own, and a niece, and 3 nephews never have a thought share with me so today will glide by without any contact with anyone, and I don't mind that at all, and so I question the meaning of life more broadly, and wonder just why is it that Earth exists at all, along with Universe and all we can see within it, and maybe there is an infinite number of universes outside own "own", with billions of planets where life was, or exists now, or will in future, over billions of years of evolution.So some ppl just cannot explain this truth about what existence really is, and nobody can measure how big infinity is, or how long eternity is, and mental health statistics indicate that many just cannot cope with any defined reality, and what they imagine to be true replaces reality.
Just about all tribes on Earth who spent millions of years evolving to have bigger and bigger brains have yet to fully understand Nature, the unfathomable truth about what we see, so meaning of life for the brightest of minds and the dullest remains a Miss Terrey, and we have yet to even find a cure for Pca, so let us not congratulate our species for being brighter than we really are.
And all these slowly evolving brains all began to find a way to make life seem less puzzling by inventing religion, a god, or hundreds of them, and moral codes, and ideas about right and wrong, rewards and punishments, and we collectively found we needed rules to counter our tendencies to practice every vice possible, and not practice virtues.
But I just fail to feel or think that any god exists, except in minds of others and yet I don't mind the Ten Commandments, just like I have no objection to traffic lights at road intersections, and laws to allow goodness to flourish without evil ruining life. But I am powerless to change how much evil is done, and like billions of others, none of us know fully how our species will fare in distant future.
And all species we know of so far have found to have a time for their survival on Earth. The fossil records show many did not survive for long, while others have been around far longer than we Homo Sapiens has been around.
There's a big increase now in Homo Wrectus, which of course is that species which drives around in huge SUV and practices every possible form of non sustainability thus wrecking the environment.
We might make things a bit better by 2050 if we de-carbonize, but what about 3050? Does anyone really think we might last that long?
If we ever make contact with alien life that will not automatically exterminate us, we should ask their advice about how they managed to exist as an "advanced" form of life for so long without collapse. But many ppl here would see any other planet that could support our life as something we would invade and conquer to make our life more secure.
But we don't see any evidence yet of galactic empires. Life here is predatory.
I'm lucky to get through my life with a minimum of consuming, or being predated upon by enemies, and where laws and order were good enough most of the time.
But happiness was yet another thing that was hard to pin down for long.
Patrick Turner.
I want to say "preach it" for some reason😊 I always appreciate your perspective.
Most here might spend Xmas day surrounded by noisy grand children and other family members. And maybe that makes them happier and if it does not then I am not sure what would.So I doubt philosophic ideas have any relevance on Christmas day to many ppl.
But regardless of all ideas of mine about "ultimate realities", I like talking to all I meet here, and I try to enjoy the neighbors and friends I have around me locally.
Quite a few don't have many friends; most are married, with a family, and what I find is that if you visit ppl and take some beer or wine with you, at a convenient time, they will welcome you, and you'll find time to listen, and to say what can be said, and they like that. I cycle around a lot on my own, but that's not social, and so I have a group of ppl I can enjoy when there is some spare time.
Patrick Turner.
Glad to hear it you have neighbors should you care to join them and your philosophical ideas are appreciated by me.even on Christmas.I cycle by myself mostly but I enjoy company once in a awhile if their pace isn't too far off mine.
I hope you can get out soon it will be a few days for me which stinks cause I got Lupron inj #6 yesterday. 2 more and it will be time to stop and see what happens.
I returned to cycling after 12 year pause in 2006 and was 20Kg overweight. After 7 months I estimate got rid of 23Kg of fat and gained 3 Kg muscle. I cycled mainly alone to do that, seeking out steepest hills and in Canberra there are plenty. By late 2007 I sought company and joined "slow group" doing 60km Sunday rides with Canberra Pedal Power organization which advocated for cyclist rights and better cyclist facilities. I didn't stay long because I was faster than all in that group, and had too many stops along the way for what I'd never stop for.
I joined the "fast group", and that was much harder and from about 25 ppl max there were always 5 who I could not stay with, mostly 10 years younger. I had enough of the "fasties" after awhile, and joined an "intermediate" group, and they suited me.
But then came Pca diagnosis, and failure of RP, and effects of ADT, so I struggled to keep up. Then I had 1.5 years of having temporary uretic stents put in because one ureter became constricted and I could have lost a kidney, but that resolved itself, but long fast rides at high pace had me pissing blood so I quit the intermediates, but sometimes rode the slowies, and they didn't mind my speed, and they had more women and so morning tea stops 1/2 way in a ride were much more nicely social when we stopped. But since then that slow group dissolved, and I lost interest in cycling with anyone else. A friend who had been a customer of mine for making tube based audio system rode one day a week with me and that was very pleasant, but he got a lung problem, quit cycling at 70, and went to coastal region 80km away. I always buy him lunch when he visits town, usually to see doctors.
I had both knee joints replaced in early 2017 at time just before Cosadex failed and while Psa < 1.0. I spent 10 weeks off bike, but by August I was back with "intermediate" group and they wondered where my speed came from. But by then I was taking Zytiga, and heart rate side effects began and were worst on hot days, so I left that group to be able to begin rides at 6am on hot summer days.
I've just not felt I need to cycle with any group now.
Apart from rise in blood pressure now, but mainly when I am not cycling, my speed is good, and nobody aged over 60 has overtaken me on rides of up to 95km all around town.
I don't need the company while cycling; It would be OK if that happened, but its rare to find anyone else to cycle with on 1 to 1 basis.
So after watching years go by and seeing future options for Pca treatments dwindle, I have become less insular, more assertive being friends with real ppl in real world, and not with just those online, who I'll never really meet. So that all seems OK to me, and today I spent all day on laptop doing designs for output transformers on a new website page. I don't mind people free days on all the public holidays where most are occupied with families, and I don't want to disturb that.
Patrick Turner.
I'm not sure but I think curls help. I've had about five years of adt. Always have had weight problems but not so much boobs as tummy fat. I do sit-ups and hand weights 20 lb each so I do curls, leg bends, and lifts, all one move, floor to ceiling. Then I think what would help most would be chin-ups but I am not in good enough shape to do them.
Have a URO, MO and RO....NADA other than the info on this site!
I have Cannondale 10 speed road bike from 2010, now with SRAM gears. It has 700C23mm front and 25mm rear tyres for sealed roads, and I don't ride on any dirt. So its not too bumpy and I can ride fast as I want up or down hills.
We don't get deep snow in Oz except in mountains about 120km south of here, maybe a meter, but some goes to tops of nearer local lower mountains. But it can snow here, maybe for an hour once a year or less. So I can do 200km+ per week, for all weeks in year, but sometimes bad weather or some medical thing interrupts the cycling.
The thing about road bikes is that you can keep heart rate elevated from say 50 at rest to say 70 when in good condition and do that for 4 hours straight, with maybe coffee stop 1/2 way, and its done when sitting down for 90% of journey and so you can burn and extra 300 calories an hour, and 4 hours = 1,200 calories an that's 133 grams of fat, But what you burn is glucose stored in muscles and fats, so maybe a long 4hour ride only gets rid of 100 grams of fat, 4 ounces, but the ride stimulates fat burning after the ride. This whole effect is different to when young and full of testosterone because average speed can be 30kph and on hilly roads, so calories used per hour can be 500, and the typical keen young cyclist who does 500km a week will have a body that resembles a broom handle with oversize leg muscles. Few of us can ever have the low fat % of the freaks who win prizes at road racing on bikes.
If I had a full amount of testosterone I'd be so much faster and able to burn calories, stop muscles withering away due to ageing.
But I am doing enough at the moment to keep me in shape and any more would just tire me out without any worthwhile body shape improvement.
It seems natural for all older mammals to gain stores of fat in older age because they have become clever hunters of food. So at 70, although my figure looks good, the fat% is really depressingly high, and muscle % has become lower, and power of those muscles gets lower. And if you diet hard, both muscles and fats may be lessened, and body becomes resistant to losing fats, so your diet must have less carbohydrates and zero fructose, glucose, sucrose, dextrose and all fats when older but adequate proteins and vegetables high in vitamins and not calories.
You also need more not less sleep than when young.
But if we are thin when old, we put less stress on bones, and muscles can move us more easily.
Patrick Turner.
That calorie burn is similar to what I get from Strava. This time of year my rides are 2 hrs 2 to 3 times a week depending on weather. If a nice weekend day comes around maybe 3.5. I ride mtn,gravel and road with different bikes. Just bought a new frame for my long road/gravel rides planned for next year. As soon as spring gets here my first long ride will be like 60-70 miles with 5500 -6000 feet of elevation in the foothills of the northern cascades. Get that road bike and ride that mountain!!!
Way off topic. Please find the Bike Blog.
All during the 6 years I spent road racing between 38 and 44, I could never get HR above 135. But that didn't stop me dominating B grade vets in club races in 1990, 91. All cycling requires effort or you slow down, and only 5% of most rides are down hill with speed over 40kph. One may estimate from an electronic gadget that you wear that you burn a pile of calories, but your muscles store a pile of glycogen that may last for the whole ride and more, and you don't need to eat much brown rice or whatever carbs to replenish carbs, and not all protein is converted to muscle so its broken down to be stored fat, or whatever the body wants. So I found I had to eat frugally while cycling high Km per week. The professional freaks in TDF have exceptional natural qualities that ordinary ppl just don't have, like very low fat %, high VO2 and ability to eat a huge pile of pasta and do a gut busting 200km in French Alps, day after day, and average speed 40kph. None of the big talk about freaks interests me because I'm old, and chemically castrated by ADT, radiated, chemoed, and had both knee joints replaced.
My days of wanting to ride up steepest hills around here are over. There are several that are over 2km, and 10% slope. The the long distance at moderate pace is enough for splendid fitness at 73, and getting any fitter is a waste of time, and won't stop Pca killing me. I cycle to live, not live to cycle.
My local doc has discovered I have a blood pressure problem so he's lent me a BP gadjet, so currently I am measuring BP 6+ times a day, and sometimes getting 200 / 90, and I'll stop all salt intake and maybe that makes no difference like so many things recommended just don't work. Doc says he has pills I should take. We will see if I do need them. A heart doc I've seen who looked at my heart said all was well after I cycled up the hill to see him while wearing a gadget to show the shapes of wave forms of all heart beats for 24 hours. But that was 2 years ago, and things can and do change.
Average resting HR is 48, and after a fast 5km, HR was 70, then 2 minutes later its down to 53, so heart is OK but I reckon having no testosterone since 2010 has done bad things to my vascular system. I also got older.
A big rain shower stopped me going far this am, but it may clear up soon, and weather radar will show what's going on.
Patrick Turner.
I don't mind the hills but they are better on the way down for sure.
I used to relish days when I rode away from a peloton because they could not keep up.But now I am quite happy to never ride with anyone else, thus feeing me up to ride at whatever speed does me good at this time in my life, and without trying to keep up with younger strong cyclists or the infiltrating increase of e-bikes into "social" cycling groups where ppl my age or younger / older are not fit, and use a 50 to 100W electric motor on their bike.
A large part of my life has been all about being alone at work and at home, and I thus avoid all the disappointments involved with togetherness. Relationships never fully flourished for me, maybe they got to be relation-boats, or relation-canoes, and might be just social entanglements, despite good beginnings.
All one has to do is avoid all others where they offer no benefit to yourself + themselves if you get together at work, or at home, or in a sport. I am so happy to NOT have met a very large number of ppl could could have wrecked my life. Much of life is often one big effort with a type of peloton at work, at home, in a family, and I feel quietly satisfied I did not have to be the hero to support bosses to make profits, and be a slave to wives who were lazy, and for other cyclists who liked to always ride behind me to get the benefit of the wind draft. So after turning 30, I wanted to always know just what benefit I was to anyone else, and what they were for me. Romance becomes re-defined by common sense.
I quite the bike racing where pelotons at weekly club races were often no more than 6 others, and we'd all get to know each other. But my club had "open" events such as Canberra Two Day tour, which was 2 races on Saturday, and a bigger + harder one on Sunday, and there was a medal or money to be won. So only the cream of other clubs turned up, but maybe 60 started in a peloton. But by start of second race, many knew thy had no chance to win anything so they went home. By Sunday, only 15 started, and I was not always nearly last to finish so I came 14th or 15th out of 60 starters, not a bad result, and the total 200km cycled for the weekend were on some country roads with lots of hills, so it was excellent training for me. I did 5 such local opens and it rained + hailed or sleeted on the Sunday ride for 4 of those events. Those younger ones rode off ahead, and I thought "good riddance". In all that racing only one female entered, and she was quicker than me. In those days, women's bike racing was almost unknown because so few females ever were keen cyclists. There was one lady of 25 in my club who had cycled right around Australia in preceding years years, and was considered for Olympic selection, but she wasn't ever in any race I was in, but on the velodrome she was only as fast as the A grade vets, who were a lot slower than the "seniors", those between 18 and 35.
Maybe the local females have their own club now, because numbers doing it have risen.
I always know when a group of women are coming past my house ; I hear them chattering away well before I see them. The men in groups are mainly silent.
Despite the rain this am, I managed 60km after rain stopped.
Patrick Turner.
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