High dose testosterone causes DNA damage and suppresses prostate cancer growth. Phase II clinical trial

[George71]

July 28, 2020

Phase II clinical trial testing the combination of high dose testosterone with Olaparib to enhance the effect.

cdmrp.army.mil/pcrp/researc...

[pjoshea13]

George,

Here is a video of Michael Schweizer with Sam Denmeade [BAT]:

urotoday.com/video-lectures...

-Patrick

[George71 in reply to pjoshea13]

thanks Patrick,

What do you think about getting on super T and see if it slows my PSA rise. I'm currently 4 1/2 yrs post surgery only taking 1 Avadart every other day with supplements. PSA rising 1.37 was .9 August last year. They found one quarter inch spot in seminal area of prostate bed .. uncertain what to do ... radiate the prostate bed and the spot .. then wait and see -- or try super high T and see if it can slow it down. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,

George

[pjoshea13 in reply to George71]

George, do you know your current T level? -Patrick

[George71 in reply to pjoshea13]

Yes,

testosterone is 583

PSA 1.37

[pjoshea13 in reply to George71]

Morgenthaler's saturation model predicts that the androgen receptiors in the body have access to all the T they could want when T is above 250 ng/dL

Dr. Myers said that men in the off-phase of IADT found that the PSA settled down by the time men were no longer in the hypogonadal range (<350 ng/dL).

My guess is that with a T of583, all increases would be irrelevant, in terms of the effect on PCa.

Denmeade likes to get up to 2,000 ng/dL monthly (patients are on continuous Lupron, so are castrate by the end of each month.) You could do the monthly shot & swing back down to 500+ by month-end, but the BAT concept is that T goes down to zero in each cycle. Would the double-strand break effect (if one exists in practice) occur in your case?

Very important to check that T injections do not cause your RBCs to go crazy. Not common & Denmeade hasn't mentioned it, but some men have an issue.

583 is a nice level, but I always aimed for 1,000 when I was on continuous T - & Arimidex to control estradiol.

The above is for info - not advice - of course.

-Patrick

[George71 in reply to pjoshea13]

Thanks Patrick for the info,

Did keeping your T at around 1000 help slow the rise of PSA? I was told that if you supplement T for an extended time -- 6 months or so -- your body would stop making T entirely. then an occasional stoppage of T would create the fall to <50 T or the bi-polar effect now and then to keep the PCa cells in flux double strand breaks etc. I would think a PSA of 2000 would be best for super T .. 1000 may not be enough to cause the breaks?

[Hidden in reply to George71]

You're correct. 2000+ is supposed to be needed for DNA breaks. I was on estrogen based ADT for 5 months. T was undetectable. For the last 11 months I've been on 400mg/wk testosterone cypionate injections. With an AI (Femara in my case). Also dutasteride and finasteride to block DHT. My total T has measured 2100-3000+ ng/dl.

If and when my PSA starts going up I will likely give BAT a try. I think my endogenous T production should be zero by now so a short half life T like propionate should let me pulse the T high for a bit and then go low.

This is what I've done but of course it isn't advice. Just info. (my holy BAT plan is at prostatecancer.health.blog/...

[George71 in reply to Hidden]

Hi RSH1,

I read your blog and have a few questions and thoughts... First, how can you have NED with a positive lymph node and positive margins post surgery pathology.. and what was your PSA post surgery that caused you to take such aggressive measures .. Zytiga, E patches, etc?

I am considering super T on a continuous basis - which is what Dr. Bob Leibowitz does after short term low dose chemo. He puts many patients on T (rub on cream) and gets their T to 3,000 , 5,000, even 10,000 and leaves them there for years... many of his patients have mets throughout their body and in the bones. Some had PSA in the 700 range and higher. It obviously works for some people. Most continue having a PSA but it simply doesn't rise -- maybe very slowly over years -- PSA 15 or 20 but just stays there. He has been doing this for decades -- long before Dr. Denmeade. And Dr. Bob leaves you on high T (not bi-polar) -- occasionally he stops the T for a month or so to reshock the PCa cells and restarts continuous super high T.

Have you seen his videos?

youtu.be/wa-WwEK1ZqA(Not working as expected?)

compassionateoncology.org/v...

George

[Hidden in reply to George71]

Hi George!

I've seen his video and I'm a patient there. He's had impressive results. I also regularly see an SOC oncologist. She pushed for the standard ADT treatment but seems very surprised at how I seem to be doing and now she doesn't argue with me (as an aside she's a very smart Doctor and a fantastic person. I feel blessed to have found her).

I started the high T and later looked for a Doctor. Rather backwards.

I'm NED because after the RP my PSA was zero and there isn't any evidence of cancer in lymph nodes or bones as of scans 2 weeks ago. Yet I'm doing very aggressive treatments because the statistics for my PCa are a 99% chance of return. After my RP in 12/2018 the Mayo docs told me that my chances of being NED after 02/2019 were zero.

I expected to have a PSA flare-up when I started T. And then hopefully a decrease to a low level. But I never had a flare. My PSA is 0.05. One of my doctors thinks it might be from tissues other than prostate. Maybe he's right but I don't want to take a chance.

If you do this I'd strongly suggest using ultrasensitive PSA tests at least once a month to monitor what's going on.

Stay well! Russ

[George71 in reply to Hidden]

Hi Russ I messaged you directly, you can read it there. I see where we had conversed about 5 months ago.

[kaptank in reply to Hidden]

Beware! T propionate causes pain! Not recommended for us.

[George71 in reply to pjoshea13]

Hi patrick,

I have read where you thought B12 caused an uptick in your PCa in the past ... but I have also read where B6 is likely very helpful in controlling prolactin .. and I've seen that one should take all the B vitamins not just B6 alone... I was wondering what your thoughts are on taking a multiple B vitamin. Otherwise what is your opinion on how to hold down prolactin.

Thanks

George

[pjoshea13 in reply to George71]

Back in the day I was a B-50 user. Mostly because of stress.

After diagnosis I saw no evidence in the literature that B-50 would help, so I discontinued use. After my bad experience with B12 shots, I am wary of a multi-B supplement.

It's not as though I am at risk for beriberi, pellagra or folate deficiency.

For prolactin, I currently use Dopa Mucuna - 15% L-Dopa.

-Patrick

[Hidden in reply to George71]

I take 0.5 mg of cabergoline each week. Drops prolactin very low. Mine is 1.1 ng/ml. Before I started cab it was 9.1 ng/ml.

[Hidden in reply to George71]

Have you taken a PSMA PET CT?

[SatuitMike]

This trial requires soft tissue involvement. Was not able to get in.

[BruceSF in reply to SatuitMike]

Do you have a link to the study criteria? Thanks, Bruce

[George71 in reply to BruceSF]

this may be it

registered at ClinicalTrials.gov (NCT02286921)

the clinical study is at

jci.org/articles/view/127613

[BruceSF in reply to George71]

Thanks, I found it at clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

It's at 17 locations across the US, it's a 50-50 randomization vs xtandi, crossover allowed after progression. Mike, I didn't see any mention of solid tumors, they talk about bone mets a lot. They seem to want representation from people who had abiraterone failure in <6 months and also >6 months

[SatuitMike in reply to BruceSF]

This maybe a different trial. I will check with my MO