Vitamin D / The Optimal Dose, Dr. Jud... - Advanced Prostate...

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Vitamin D / The Optimal Dose, Dr. Judson Somerville

HOPEFULSPOUSE
HOPEFULSPOUSE

Wondering if anyone is familiar with this book or taking these high doses of D?

Just learned of it recently when a friend sent it; was surprised to learn since that while several of my husband's doctors were not only familiar with this idea but taking these high doses themselves. . . . they neglected to share that with him/us at any point.

Hard not to second guess now that he is gone, but after diving in myself have been amazed at the pain relief benefits

81 Replies
oldestnewest

Thank you! Nice to see you here & know you're keeping us in mind after your great loss. Hope you're doing o.k. and taking good care of yourself through this pandemic.

Hope you are doing well since your loss. I read the blurb, but it does not say what the optimal dose is. I am not buying the book so what does it say? I take 30,000 a day and sunbathe 3 days a week for an hour in high sun. So my weekly amounts are off the charts. We have one man on this site who uses D3 as a Mono_therapy, for his Pca and takes 100,000 units per day, and has been undetectable for PSA for many years.

Anecdotal, but good info.

Nalakrats

Thanks Nalakrats,

Day by day.

As usual, you're on the right track.

The "optimal dose" is 30,000 for most (northern European light skin). I have been taking 50,000 as am olive skinned.

In short, the doctor who wrote the book is a pain medicine specialist, used to be the #1 prescriber of opioids in Texas, now he rarely prescribes them. He started experimenting on himself, then his patients. His premise was based on looking at people south of the equator - who get about 20,000 - 50,000 IUs and more of D daily from sunshine. So they have miniscule amounts of cancer, pain, obesity, asthma, autoimmune disease, depression, Alzheimers, autism, ADD and many other diseases. He hypothesizes that we had a huge spike in all these ailments starting in the 80s when using sunscreen was popularized.

He reports that all his patients had their weight normalize, from the ones who were 5-10 lbs overweight to the ones who were obese. He calls it the "hibernation syndrome" that apparently occurs in animals who hibernate as well: when the D levels get low, the body interprets that as a sign that winter is coming so starts storing fat and the metabolism slows down.

Saturday will mark 10 weeks of high dose D - I am taking 50,000 IUs daily - not 30,000 that he mentions in the book. (Although I started out with 2 weeks of 100,000 a day)

My benefits so far:

1) After 1 day - the pain in my left hip was about 90% gone. I stopped running about 4/5 years ago after a hip MRI showed alot of wear and tear so decided I didn't want a hip replacement. The past year the pain had been about a 7-8 on a scale of 1-10, almost daily. After about 4 weeks rest of the pain mostly disappeared. Every now and then after a long walk (more than an hour) I will feel a twinge but from what I've read that should go away over time - 6 months to a year.

2) A bone spur on the ball of my left foot completely disappeared after 2 weeks

3) Am now sleeping like a baby (the author says this is a side effect as well)

This didn't happen overnight. Checked with my own GP who said to up my dose of magnesium (I take extended release) and K2 - which D3 can deplete - and further help to keep the calcium in the bones and out of the soft tissue.

4) My mood has improved -

Interesting about the guy on this site who takes 100,000 IUs daily. He's on to something as the "Coimbra Protocol" uses those high doses for everything from cancer to autoimmune diseases. The Brazilian doctor who came up with this protocol keeps the D levels in his patients over 200.

Dr. Somerville writes that a blood level over 100 is not dangerous - MAYBE over 300 is.

I'm shooting for 150.

BTW calcium levels were within normal range after 8 weeks

TRST
TRST
in reply to HOPEFULSPOUSE

This is interesting, thank you :)

I am currently taking a calcium supplement that has K2, magnesium and 1,600iu. But from what you've said that's nowhere near enough?

I did have a Vit D blood test not long ago (only got the result 'okay') so I should find out what the result really was.

I could do with a few of the benefits mentioned in the link to the book you gave.

HOPEFULSPOUSE
HOPEFULSPOUSE
in reply to TRST

Just sharing and if it's interesting would suggest going deeper into the research - it's there and your doctors may even be the ones to share it. 30,000 is The Optimal Dose but for certain health issues doctors may recommend higher. Dr. Somerville writes that if one is overweight or obese a higher dose may be necessary as the D can hide in fat cells. Something like that. I'm not a scientific person so hope I'm relaying it correctly.

One thing I would do differently for my husband is not have him take calcium even though it was recommended by his oncologist. Came to this conclusion after reading "Death by Calcium".

My own GP (and my late husband's) was really helpful in making sure that I was taking the cofactors of D3 - K2, magnesium, boron which work to make sure calcium stays in the bones and out of the soft tissue. He said that because he's a triathlete, he's been taking high doses of D3 since medical school and believes that hypercalcemia is rare and it is usually when people take D2 instead of D3 and/or not enough magnesium.

As soon as I upped my magnesium dose I started sleeping like a baby. Was amazing.

TRST
TRST
in reply to HOPEFULSPOUSE

Hi there and thank you for this info, which I find very interesting.

I now have my blood test result and conversation with GP .. My vit D levels are 150, and that's taking 1,600iu a day. The GP said that levels over about 180 (she couldn't remember) were toxic/not good.

If I took more vit D my levels would presumably go over this, and I am wondering whether there's evidence that the 'normal' scale vit D is measured by is outdated as from what I read people are taking much higher doses daily to boost immune etc.

HOPEFULSPOUSE
HOPEFULSPOUSE
in reply to TRST

Glad you find it interesting. Excellent on your D levels! In the book (referenced in the title of this post) Dr. Somerville discusses toxic levels.

Great that you're discussing with your GP. Over the course of my husband's 7 year battle - we were pleasantly surprised at how receptive his doctors were when we presented them with new information, books, research papers, etc.

IMHO, the best doctors out there, the ones truly committed to good patient outcomes above all else (especially above their own research) are open minded - and in our experience, usually apply a combination of traditional and non traditional methods.

Always amazing to me when a doctor will say, "there's no research that shows that XYZ supplement does anything" when alternatively if you ask, "what research can you show me that proves these 5 (or whatever the number is ) drugs when taken together is safe, helpful, etc. "

Good luck with your D levels!

Info much appreciated. Thanks...

How much Vit K do you take?

I take one LEF Super K capsule for every 10K of D3. This is what my own GP does. Interesting that until I gave him the book, we never had a discussion about D3. But I wanted him to know why my D levels would start showing higher. So was surprised to learn that he has been taking high doses since he was in medical school (25 years ago). So we came up with a plan for taking the cofactors of D3 (K2, boron, magnesium) and testing once a quarter to start. So far everything has been in the normal range.

yamobedeh
yamobedeh
in reply to Nalakrats

I followed your suggestion RE: upping my D3 intake. I've been taking around 25,000 per day in 2 doses, and my blood levels have moved into the upper midrange. I could do more. Thanks.

Nalakrats
Nalakrats
in reply to yamobedeh

I guess I am going to have to do another Bone Density Post, with the use of Minerals, their forms, Trace Minerals, and Vitamins as an all out assault on Osteopenia, and to help maintain Bone Health thru Pca treatments. I did one I guess about 4 years ago. but will consider another,--if having a couple of rainy days with nothing to do ---Ha!.

Nalakrats

Would be great but don’t want to wish rain on you!

What do you me mean by rain on me!

I was saying it would be great if you could do the write up but I do not wish you to have any rainy days (as per your post to which I was replying)! Hope you are well

Yes well--thank you---being a Gym Hog--really worried about going back into the Gym.

Nal.

I can understand that. Very tricky. I am being v cautious generally. Stay safe!

More internet garbage. High doses of Vitamin D have been associated with bone loss and show no oncological benefit. Ignore drek like this.

Sorry, TA, I forgot what your qualifications are?

I was so amazed at my own results that I sent the book to 50 of my closest friends and family members, as well as 8 of my late husband's doctors. 3 of his doctors were already taking high doses themselves, 2 have now started.

Sounds like you have amazing views from your pedestal looking down at the rest of us in judgment. Also sounds like a lonely place.

Good for you! I think his response would of at least been, to extend best wishes for you, for losing your Husband to this disease! As this was not something to be gotten over easily. To be an Advocate does also require, Empathy.

Nal.

P.S. The over 1,500 Members both MD's and PA's that belong to ACAM--> the American College For Advancement in Medicine--->also agree with your reporting. I know, as a Past Member. I still get their Blurbs. I did not pull 30,000 for myself out of the air.

I assumed you didn't pull the 30,000 dose out of the air. It's fascinating that so many people worry about toxicity when no one would worry about it from getting too much sunlight.

Interestingly, a friend who is an OBYN shared with me that when she was in medical school and starting to do hospital rotations her professor told the class if they didn't want to get sick to start taking 30,000 IUs of D3 every day. Then he told her that since she is darker skinned she needed to take 50K. She's done that every day since.

Your friend will find a dozen papers to go against you---that is what he does when confronted.

Nal.

😂 so true

My attitude towards him has generally been not to engage with a terrorist - so I just ignore; occasionally he even posts something of value.

Am certainly a strong believer in science but - as various researcher friends will be the first admit - the science is there - until it's updated or replaced by new research.

Are there any randomized studies or even retrospective studies out there showing vitamin D’s effect on prostate cancer, or any type of cancer? Thanks

Thanks, and I agree that science is most important considering the circumstances. There’s a lot of misinformation out there and we are all desperate for something to helps us. The fact that the doctor who wrote the book was the number 1 supplier of opioids in Texas is actually a red flag for me. Sorry, no disrespect meant to hopefulspouse.

Thanks for weighing in on the discussion!

Agree that science is important. I accept that there is established science as well as science that is be developed at this very moment that will update a lot of existing research - and negate it too. It's all moving so fast.

If I learned anything in the nearly 7 years of my husband's illness during which time we read hundreds of books and research papers, consulted experts in 5 countries, it is this: the best one can do for oneself is to become informed, aware. It's much easier to turn all decision making over to a doctor. The ones I know personally tell me they prefer a well-informed patient with whom they have a dialogue.

JPnSD
JPnSD
in reply to Tall_Allen

Thanks Tall Allen. In this day of Trump advocating potentially toxic medications...there seems to be less and less respect for science...and medical research. Appreciate the dose of sanity with an appropriate reference.

Thanks again.

RE: the study TA referenced, 2,000 IUs would do little to nothing.

Look again. In the Scragg RCT, they gave 200,000 IU pill initially, followed by 100,000 IU monthly pills.The Burt et al study found that bone mineral density decreased significantly in people taking 10,000 IUs per day.

The National Academy of Medicine (2,200 elected members - tops in its field ) has noted that vitamin D intakes above the tolerable upper limit of 4,000 IU per day may cause toxic effects such as renal impairment, hypercalcemia, or vascular calcification.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK5...

It is also worth noting that the American Association of Family Physicians (136,700 members) recommends against Vitamin D supplementation ("A" level rating), measuring or prescribing vitamin D supplementation in the treatment of depression, fatigue, osteoarthritis, or chronic pain ("A" level rating). and against screening ("B" level rating).

aafp.org/afp/2018/0215/p254...

Find the Phase Trials run by MD Anderson--about 5-6 years ago. They thought enough about it.

Nalakrats

Not at all lonely - I have the entire medical community (at least the part that deals with science rather than fantasy) backing me up. Here's what we know for sure:

pcnrv.blogspot.com/2018/07/...

Perhaps forward that to those 50 people and those 3 doctors, and let them see what the actual evidence says.

And the entire medical community appreciates being addressed so disrespectfully - i.e. "internet garbage"?

(My fault for engaging, TA. You know what they say about fighting with a pig, the pig likes it and you both get dirty)

You misunderstood- I'm saying that the entire scientific medical community, which I highly respect, set up the rules for evaluating evidence. The Level 1 evidence I cited is convincing .If you chose not to follow them, it may be perilous to your health.

I will happily discuss medical evidence, but leave the ad hominems out. They only reflect badly on you.

Oh I'm so sorry that I misunderstood your meanness.

Are you also aware that these attitudes and behaviors lead to poor health outcomes?

I said nothing mean. disagreeing ≠mean.

For the record, drek = poop ;-)

j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n
in reply to garyi

I say Rubbish....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 05/20/20 7:17 PM DST

drek, poop or rubbish?

Your wonderful attitude is going to take you far.

I have been taking 5000 i.u.'s of vitamin D3 for more than a decade.

Hi Emily...what is the "recommended dosage"?

.. I'm currently not taking any supplements and feeling great since my radiation (since about 3 weeks after it, actually). My PSA had gone down a couple of points on last check, but it was just after radiation...so I just had another blood test today...and can't wait to get results on Thursday. If my PSA is not soaring downward...I may be starting on a bunch of supplements again.

big hugs,

John

Good luck John - sounds great.

See my reply to Nalakrats.

Emily,

Nice to hear from you after sometime...Thanks for reporting this unusual treatment..will have to read and learn more about it......

The standard medical textbooks caution against super high dosage of Vit D as it is fat soluble and accumulates in liver ..causing liver toxicity...

Hi LearnAll,

Hope you're continuing to do well.

The book does address those concerns - and doctors who are familiar with this - like my GP - will know why that thinking is flawed.

Anyway, just sharing what is working for me.

My cousin who has lupus shared the idea with her doctor and he has started her on higher doses and is going to monitor her closely. I'm curious to see how she does.

I wonder what Vit D levels are for farmers who work in Farms in India all day long most days in bright sunshine at 110 degree temp..wearing hardly any clothes. How does body deal with such high levels of Vit D which is formed by their skin ?

Thanks for asking,..Emily..I am doing well..not on any prescription meds or lupron for last

5 and 1/2 months. I am doing intermittent ADT and am in first OFF period. All labs WNL and PSA 0.2, ALP 70..no symptoms. Still taking my herbs, spices, leaves and roots in full speed.

Just added Saffron and betel leaves to my collection. Walking 5 miles a day.

Wow sounds like you're doing great! You must be doing something right?

Good point about farmers in India. Would be interesting to know.

just ordered Dr Somervilles book. available for $9 on Amazon. Lets stay Open-minded to all possibilities .

Before you start popping Vitamin D you should speak to your doctor and certainly get bloodwork done every six months to make sure your kidneys aren't failing. People so desperate for a "cure" they will try anything even if it further jeopardizes their well-being. insider.com/can-you-overdos...

Definitely hope no one is popping anything based on something I say!

Just sharing my own personal experience.

My GP has suggested testing blood levels once a quarter.

Hi Emily. I hope you are doing well after your great loss. Really appreciate it that you keep us in mind. I take c 7000 to 10000 D3 and K2. How much magnesium does he recommend?

Hi GreenStreet,

Thank you for your kind words. Dr. Somerville doesn't suggest a dose of magnesium.

I was taking 500 mg of extended release. (The normal version gave me upset stomach). My GP suggested doubling it as D3 eats it up.

Once I did I started sleeping like a baby.

High dose vs low dose D. Both sides claim receiving benefit. Are both sides right? Are both sides wrong, or is one side right and the other side wrong?

I guess both sides are right but the missing piece of the puzzle needs to be found to explain why the difference exists.

I used to live on Guam, close to the equator. Just to stay cool we would wear the minimum clothing . No idea how much D I got, but it must have been near the max.

Just wondering if the residents of Guam have less prostate cancer?

ITCandy
ITCandy
in reply to ck722

I try and keep my vitamin D level between 90-100. I see two different oncologists at completely different cancer facilities (Sloan and Yale). One doctor flips out when my level goes above 70 and the other (who is more a naturalistic oncologist) is fine with it and recommends it. So as usual I have to make my own mind up. Similar to this site - opinions on both sides of the fence. But a question to Tall_Allen: would your calcium levels start to rise prior to damage being done? I check my calcium levels closely.

noahware
noahware
in reply to dagreer

Curious as to what dose/form of D you take to maintain those levels... thanks!

dagreer
dagreer
in reply to noahware

20,000 IU of D3 per day. When my D level get up to 100 I cut back for a while and it goes down to 70-80 and then I start again. Or sometimes I do it every other day.

Sometimes I wonder if people would take a very different view of Vitamin D, for better or worse, if it wasn't instead called "Steroid Hormone D" in common useage. Seems it would get a lot more respect for its potential harms and benefits.

I also have to take this opportunity to use TA's own words against his implication that high doses of D3 couldn't be of benefit, when he says:

"Steroids tend to interact and to have wide-ranging effects in humans. Overwhelming our steroid-control systems with massive doses of any one steroid is bound to have unintended consequences."

Fair enough, but why on earth would such consequences necessarily only be NEGATIVE? Whether consequences are intended or unintended, high-dose steroid hormones DO have wide-ranging effects in humans, with potential harms AND potential benefits. The same goes for the ELIMINATION of hormones.

[So we could add: DEPLETING our steroid-control systems of any one steroid is bound to have unintended consequences... as we surely know.]

The fact is, if D3 is a hormone, it makes perfect sense to think it MIGHT impact hormone-oriented cancers, one way or another. It is also true, as with high-dose testosterone and estrogen (or the elimination of either), that impact is complex and may just as easily carry many potential harms with any potential benefits.

One should always ask: might potential harms outweigh potential benefits? I see very little observational evidence of severe harm being done by high-dose D3 if taken with precautions (like the required K, etc., as mentioned). The fact is, the medical standard of care of various hormonal treatments have KNOWN harms that have not even been proven to always outweigh the intended benefits!

If one demanded ONLY "Level One" evidence for any treatment, I'm afraid one might be obliged to abandon both RP and RT as curative treatments, because they have never been subjected to studies of that rigor, so far as I know.

Thanks for your input - all good points you raise.

Also, my own GP said that he doesn't think there are any reported cases of vitamin D toxicity from sunlight where people spend hours in the sun wearing very little clothing, with blood levels going way past 200. He is curious about this and has promised to share what he comes across.

Yes, I always find it strange when people say "this level could be toxic" and then they cannot present a single example of an actual person suffering severe consequences from that supposed toxicity, absent some other comorbidity or confounding factor.

Are there other books/doctors besides the one you mentioned (and your own GP) that you have found to be particularly good sources or references for D3 info? Or websites? Thanks!

Hi Noahware,

It has been interesting to realize from recent discussions with my husband's former doctors as well as friends and family members who are doctors and scientists - how so many of them are already taking high doses of vitamin D.

As my uncle who's a retired surgeon put it, they are all in fields ruled by science, so they're not necessarily going to recommend or write a headline about every hypothesis they have - unless it's been tested, published, peer-reviewed, etc.

However that does not mean they're not going to try some of these ideas out on themselves and see where that leads them. I'm more and more convinced that this is what so many of them are doing with vitamin D. Several have admitted as much.

Here's a site about the Coimbra Protocol

coimbraprotocol.com/the-pro...

A book about it that I've read is here:

amazon.com/True-High-Dose-V...

The doctor is Brazilian but there are doctors around the world who follow that protocol - all listed on the site.

A friend's husband has an app't with a doctor in Ft. Lauderdale, FL who follows their protocol. He has severe neuropathy in both legs and feet from liver disease and has had no feeling in them for about 3 years. After taking 30,000 IUs for about 6-7 weeks he started regaining some feeling. So is curious to see what higher doses may do.

Another interesting read is

THE MIRACULOUS RESULTS OF EXTREMELY HIGH DOSES OF THE SUNSHINE HORMONE VITAMIN D3

This author is not a doctor - it's a combination of his personal anecdotes and references to some interesting research on PUBMED.

amazon.com/MIRACULOUS-RESUL...

And finally, Dr. Akbar Khan at Medicor Cancer Center in Toronto, one of Gordon's former oncologists, let me know that he is already treating his patients with high doses of vitamin D.

medicorcancer.com/

Hope this information is helpful/useful.

Best of luck & happy reading!

Thanks!

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to noahware

Bravo! This is a great reply . Thanks

Pleased to hear that you are still with us.

Clearly, this is a controversial topic because it would appear that the medical experts / researchers can't come to a consensus.

Perhaps the 'confusion or obstruction' could be based on what their particular area of expertise is and how that might bias their conclusion(s).

For what it is worth, I believed that less D was better than too much, as long as you met the minimal serum level.

The obvious wildcard in all of this is solar exposure.

I live in a northern climate and I'm white - so I only get my solar 'fix' during a period of 5 months - the rest - from supplementation.

One thing I can take to the bank - when I get my solar seasonal fix. I feel MUCH better and my psoriasis clears up where the sun shines.

I await some further 'reveals' as the science tries to address the contradictions.

I thank you for reaching out to try to point to some new approaches to 'D' .....

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to RonnyBaby

💪

Hello Emily.

Thanks for still hanging out with us guys.... but I think Gordon may be a little jealous.... I wonder if he's taking my advice about vitamin D.....

Chocolate chip ice cream (two scoops) - goes great on top of angel food cake....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 05/20/20 7:29 PM DST

Gordon didn't have a jealous bone in his body. No doubt he would be happy that I'm sharing anything information I find that may help another.

Nothing, however is a substitute for a good attitude!

🕊Peace to Gordon !

I understand that for those on ADT (e.g. Lupron), vitamin D3 is important for keeping bones strong and for preventing the bone loss. I gather that Vitamin D helps your intestines absorb calcium from the food you eat. Getting enough of both nutrients is an important part of making sure your bones are dense and strong. For that reason I take 1000 IU twice a day, but nothing like what is being discussed. Even if there were not a proven connection between use of Vitiman D3 and cancer prevention, there may nevertheless be a useful benefit with respect to bone density for those on ADT.

Whimpy-p
Whimpy-p
in reply to Runner4000

Good point ..

What is the name of the book? Thank you

The Optimal Dose - the title of this post.

Thank You. Buying it.

How high of a dose do you do?

I take 50,000, although I started with 14 days of 100,000.

I appreciate you ❤️

Thank you so much. Kind of you to say. Likewise!

Thanks for this post ! 🕊

Alright then ..you know through experience .. My Nat dr told me that even a tan person can be d deficient ..

Very interesting information about dosage of Vitamin D.

Thank you for sharing! Some friends in the UK are huge fans of his.

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