Sartor Article on High Dose Testosterone (vs Bipolar Testosterone)

[cesanon]

Sartor Article on High Dose Testosterone (vs Bipolar Testosterone)

europeanurology.com/article...

[Fairwind]

So here it is, spelled out and easy to understand...A cheap, safe, effective treatment that has few if any negative side-effects and a stunning positive response..BAT or HDT, take your pick....I have been trying to get a local doctor, any local doctor, to write me a script for the testosterone.

So how come no big multi location clinical trial ?? Why try it on just one man ?? The reason for that is most trials are sponsored by big drug companies who hold patents on the drugs being tested in the trials...If the FDA approves the drug or treatment, it's a huge payday for them..But Testosterone is an off-patent generic drug. So there is little or no money available to sponsor a trial with no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow..

Prescribing Testosterone to prostate cancer patients is beyond the comprehension of virtually all doctors.. If you are healthy and suffer from "Low T" you can get all you want. But if you have prostate cancer, good luck...Somehow, the FDA must approve testosterone for advanced prostate cancer based on the evidence already collected which is considerable and involves several small trials.

[cesanon in reply to Fairwind]

The evidence is still out. But Sartor it a top researcher and very credible. He told me he has 20 patients on this.

If you want to get on it, schedule an appointment with him at Tulane.

Have you become resistant to androgen deprivation therapy?

[Hidden in reply to Fairwind]

Totally agree with the motivation for funding with high dose testosterone (HDT) treatment. Obviously insurance companies would benefit from HDT as well, perhaps some regulatory restriction for insurance funded research.

Notice the little interest with HDT here, absolutely no patient "market forces whatsoever". Is it possible we get enough patients wanting HDT, BAT or whatever similar to drive "market" force?

[Tall_Allen in reply to Fairwind]

Careful. This was a single case study - certainly not proof of anything. I find it strange that he continued Lupron while giving transdermal testosterone.

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

He told me that he believes that the testosterone effect occurs only while it is high, and taking it low is irrelevant to it's effect.

I think what he is publishing is history as opposed to what he is doing today, or planning for tommorow.

Personally I like to stay a bit closer to the trailing edge as opposed to the bleeding edge.

He participated in the bipolar study. If I were to do anything like this today, I would do bipolar until there is more published history with straight testosterone.

There must have been some logical reason for the lupron though. The reason for the testosterone is to reset the expression of a general. So maybe that has something to do with it???

[Tall_Allen in reply to cesanon]

I'm with you that BAT makes more sense. I'm bewildered as to why he would give Lupron and testosterone at the same time. They both keep the testicles shut off. I look at the tissue in the tumor as a "complex adaptive system" of interacting cell types. The ADT keeps the volume of hormone-sensitive cancer cells low; and the testosterone keeps them in a hormone-sensitive state and keeps the healthy cells healthy. So by cycling the two, the tumor is kept in dynamic equilibrium. In some men the equilibrium may be too far gone to bring back. I think they need to determine what that tissue balance has to be for BAT to work, and at what balance testosterone will only make things worse.

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

Sartor did make one comment. He said it wasn't about increasing testosterone. It was about putting it up really really high at unnaturally high levels.

So for what he is doing according to his hypothesis, as I understand it, just increasing testosterone levels isn't by itself good enough. He has to get them up through the roof.

[Tall_Allen in reply to cesanon]

in the BAT trials at Johns Hopkins they also boosted T to supraphysiologic levels ( over 1000 ng/dl), so that's not new. They used IM injections rather than transdermal, which probably doesn't matter.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Tall_Allen]

BTW - I reviewed the BAT trials and discussed the biochemical rationale behind it couple of years ago. I also added some updates since. The University of Colorado will start another trial soon.

For mCRPC:

pcnrv.blogspot.com/2016/09/...

For mHSPC:

pcnrv.blogspot.com/2016/09/...

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thanks

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

I could be wrong, but I seem to recollect that Sartor is targetting saturations of 5000 or greater.

[Currumpaw in reply to Tall_Allen]

I forwarded a similar study a couple years ago to one of my doctors. There were a number of men involved in the study. Several did very well and I believe were in remission. A few didn't respond to the high dose testosterone and some were in the middle. This is from memory. My doctor was impressed enough with the study that he has sort of tabled testosterone therapy as a possible treatment in the future.

You can find that study on line I imagine. For some reason the NIH is in my mind.

I don't spend the time I used to these sites. I am just trying to find some enjoyment out of life, not spending hours each day on these sites or the net looking for the elusive combination of supplements or the latest and greatest treatment I log on once in awhile if I see something of interest--if I even look.

As Jim Morrison said, "When the music's over--turn out the lights". If it's no fun being, why be?

[Tall_Allen in reply to Currumpaw]

See the links i provided for all the available trial info to date.

[cesanon]

"American College for Advancement in Medicine"

LOL, ever notice the types of names selected by cons and grifters. Or the names selected for new legislation.

Whenever they feel the need to self-describe themselves in the title, usually it means that they are just the opposite of what they are claiming to be.

There may or may not be something to this testosterone. But in all cases its use should be supervised by someone who knows what they are doing. I would not currently trust anyone other than a Doc who participated in the original BAT study.

And specifically would not trust an internist freelancing outside their area of specialty. What kind of self-destructive risky behavior is that?

[Fairwind in reply to cesanon]

Risky ? Perhaps..But when you are facing terminal cancer, what difference does it make ? The risks associated with HRT are well known. If the testosterone causes the PSA to skyrocket, so what ? It's doing that anyway..But in the trials run so far, PSA acceleration has not been a problem..The only red flag, if you are having any bone pain, testosterone might be a bad idea as the pain can get much worse..

[cesanon in reply to Fairwind]

Fairwind

Risky = "internist freelancing outside their area of specialty"

Why not take actions reasonably calculated to produce the intended result?

Starting off with someone experienced with the treatment you are seeking. How about an oncologist who participated in the original BAT trials. I recollect there were about 10 of them or so. Just go to the published study and get the list of authors.

[WXYZ123]

We saw Dr Denmeade last January. He only recommended Lupron and docetaxel. We were very interested in the high dose testosterone treatment

We’ve been in Germany this past month getting hyperthermia, high dose Mistletoe etc but would like to know more about the testosterone

My husband is now on Zytiga as the Lupron did nothing for him but waste his muscle and give him severe hot flashes

We will be home December 8th and could talk after that. Are you willing?

BTW Johns PSA is 1121. Bone mets and lymph, no organ involvemen.

Thanks!

[cesanon in reply to WXYZ123]

"Dr Denmeade last January. He only recommended Lupron and docetaxel. "

Why did Denmeade refrain from recommending BAT? He must have had some reasoning?

Why don't you schedule an appointment with Sartor? He participated in the |BAT study. He is continuing along his own line of inquiry.

Call 504-988-7869 to make an appointment with him and see what his opinion is.

[WXYZ123 in reply to cesanon]

Seems like a suggestion worth exploring-thanks

[George71 in reply to WXYZ123]

are you aware of Dr. Bob Leibowitz -- he has successfully treated patients with higher PSA than your husband.

compassionateoncology.org/v...

[WXYZ123 in reply to George71]

John has just begun Dr Bobs protocol.

Feeling awful but maybe soon to begin feeling better

[George71 in reply to WXYZ123]

I hope so, I'm praying for you guys

[EdBar]

Thanks for sharing, he mentioned this during our last couple of visits that this would be one of the options when the day comes that xtandi stops working. Sartor is not Willy nilly with the treatments he prescribes, they are always based on data.

Ed

[cesanon in reply to EdBar]

Ed

Yes, the only reason to use testosterone is to reset things after testosterone deprivation therapy ceases to work.

[pjoshea13 in reply to cesanon]

Not so. BAT, when used right off the bat, may prevent ADT resistance, i.e. may extend ADT effectiveness indefinitely.

-Patrick

[Hidden in reply to cesanon]

Oh, how about the Quality of Life (QoS) benefits, I'm looking at BAT as something that may be better than ADT temporary vacation.

[podsart]

What is MYC amplification ?

First time seeing Dr refer to using the Guardant360- are other drs using it now?

Didn’t know it could detect AR mutations

[Currumpaw]

Right on Nalakrat. That is the study I read and forwarded to one of my doctors. I think I read it on the NIH. My special Doc, my intravenous vitamin C infusion guy is keeping T in reserve. The study in the link cesanon posted used testosterone patches to deliver the T. Interesting.

You may be interested in this. Some guys swear by wormwood capsules. Well, this was either extracted as a liquid or turned into a liquid for infusion. The liquid is known as Artesunate. There is a hospital in Baltimore that I believe was involved in Artesunate infusions to treat cancer. Supposedly good results. This is from memory. My Doc went to Baltimore for lectures and so on. We decided to try it. Once a week, for three months, after a LIVE O2 session I had an Artesunate infusion. Cleared the IV with some sterile water then a 50,000 mg vitamin C infusion. No results with the Artesunate, in fact my PSA rose. After 3 months my Doc stopped since I wasn't getting any benefit.

Glad your back. May you maintain a quality of life without too much time and resources spent to just stay alive.

Currumpaw

[agyoung]

I have seen Dr. Sartor for 5.5 years after having RP and radiation.

I was told I had 1-2 years as the Gleason score was 5+4 and the cancer had escaped the prostate. Initially they weren’t going to do a prostectomy because they felt I was too far gone.

I was on Lupron for 2.5 years with the last 6 month injection 12/2013.

I went to Dr. Sartor for a 6 month check in March of this year and he prescribed Androgel. His comment was he has seen me go down the tubes with no “T” and wanted me to have some quality of life, which he said that I didn’t have. I gave it considerable thought and decided to start taking testosterone gel. I can’t tell you what a difference it made in my quality of life. My “T” was 11ng/dL for several years after the last Lupron injection. The T never rebounded. After about 4 months of T daily,I became a person again. I was like the frog in the pan of water that keeps getting warmer.

This was not a BAT protocol, just something to try to make my life worth something.

Unfortunately, the PSA is rising from undetectable. I live close to Dr. Sartor and see him regularly. I will see what he has to say soon. My T level has been about 1100ng/dL for about 4 months, and time will tell.

His question to me was “do you want to live 2 years with zero quality of life or live 1 year with some semblance of QOL

Alan

[cesanon in reply to agyoung]

Please keep us all apprised.

[jimbob99999]

Anyone have a PDF of this article?

[agyoung]

Thank you Cesanon.

I will.

I will say that for me, so far, it has been a test of my endurance of the uncomfortable. Nothing more disheartening than slathering on something that will kill you every morning. But some people need more “T” than others, and I guess I am in that boat.

Take care,

Alan