fasting has many helath benefits like stabilising lowering blookd sugar and raiging the bodys ph. i always find the more i eat the worse my rls gets in fact intermittent fasting is the only thing ive found heps. suppose everybody is different
not for me personally: fasting has many... - Restless Legs Syn...
not for me personally
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danny9849
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Hi Danny.
Do you fast or not? "Not for me" is a bit confusing.
Great that you find fasting helpful of.yoi do.
However, have you also thought about what exactly you eat when you do eat.
Of course eating too much is not good, so you may wish to look up guidance on what is a reasonable amount.
A low carbohydrate diet is generally a good idea.
Have you thought that you may have a sensitivity? I note a member recently found cutting out milk was effective.
Lactose sensitivity is possibly more common than people recognise. The symptoms may be vague or unnoticeable.
Gluten sensitivity is another possibility.
You could try keeping a food diary. Or you could, one by one, eliminate things to see if it makes a difference.
Are you sure you don't have a bowel condition. SIBO, IBS or H Pyloribacter? These can affect RLS.
Gut health is good. Consider talking probiotics.
Taking an anti oxidant like selenium or celery juice can help.
If you've been tested for vitamin B12 and vit D then if you have deficiency then a supplement could help. Most people in the west are vitamin D deficient.
I hope you're aware that the main diet related issue with RLS is iron.
Perhaps you already appreciate the need for blood tests for iron, transferrin saturation (TSAT). ferritin and haemoglobin.
If ferritin is less than 75 and TSAT is less than 45% then you should start taking an oral iron supplement.
I've mentioned these as they're diet related. What you do eat is possibly more significant than fasting.
But do carry on fasting if it helps.
thanks for your in depth reply. i was literally going through it in my head going yep yep yep yep lol. ive tried everything apart from trans?? iron??? i take iron in a multi vit if that helps daily. last night i made some cool discoveries about gaba. gaba is a neuro transmitter that calms the nervous system when we get tired. if your low on it it causes nerve excitability. gaba is produced from glutamate being converted by glutamic acid decarboxylase. soooo. if your low on the glauatamic acid debcarboxylase you wont be able to convert glutamte to gaba and you will end up with excess glutamate in your brain which does what?? excites the nerves. bad times.so foods high in gaba and the enzyme are great even foods high in glutamate are ok if your not deficient in the enzyme. anyway turns out the best thing for the enzyme is lactic acid bateria, lacto bactillius. pro biotics....
now by far the best pro biotics are fermented foods, saurkraut has as much live bacteria in one serving than a whole tub of supplements. and its amazing for your stomach too. so once again stomach issues raise their head...
some real food for thought there. also lowering calorific intake increases gaba levels as some scientists where studying the effects of the keto diet on gaba for treating epilepsy. so my fasting theory makes sense again plus it raises body ph which produces more adenosine which is equally as important as melatonin when falling alseep
I just started eating "GABA Rice" essentially brown rice that is sprouted and dried again. The brand I found is TruRoots - Germinated Brown Rice. Why germinated or sprouted? It reduces the phytates in the food - allowing for more nutrient absorption. I couple it with a B6 lozenge and kimchi. I also bought Pharma-Gaba a supplement that is produced by using probiotics...
"PharmaGABA® is a natural form of GABA manufactured by a fermentation process using a Lactobacillus bacteria – the same kind of bacteria used to ferment vegetables, cheese, wine and other traditional diets. The bacteria are fed nutrients, including glutamic acid from sugar cane, to produce a high level of GABA that can then be concentrated through a filtration process."
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...
Wow, thanks so much for these suggestions. The pharmagaba is particularly intriguing.
in reply to danny9849
All true. Like you, I believe intermittent fasting (or that long night fast every night) is of enormous benefit to those of us with RLS. Supposedly fasting "upregulates" our dopamine receptors which are genetically lousy.
Good, you have discovered some interesting things there.
Also note what DicCarlson says.
Anything that might increase GABA, but more importantly, reduce glutamate should help with RLS.
Note that HIGH glutamate is a big factor in RLS as is a consequence of low adenosine.
Low adenosine is caused by brain iron deficiency, (BID).
Hence increasing adenosine is more fundamental than increasing GABA/teducing glutamate.
In addition raising adenosine also deals with the dopamine aspect of RLS which isn't dealt with by merely addressing GABA/glutamate only
In turn raising iron is more fundamental than raising adenosine.
You could try increasing with diet GABA/reducing glutamate, but this isn't straightforward. Even if it's effective, you still have low adenosine and raised dopamine
Increasing adenosine by diet may be quite difficult and even if effective you may be still have low iron.
Conclusion :
Trying to increase GABA, decrease glutamate or raise adenosine by diet is like pouring water into a leaky bucket.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do that as everything helps.
But it might be better and simpler to mend the leaks.
With IRON.
Serum iron is how much unbound iron is in the blood. It being too low indicates iron deficiency. Too much is dangerous.
Most iron is "bound".
Most is bound in haemoglobin.
Some is carried about the body by transferrin.
Some is stored as ferritin.
Using the bucket analogy again. In this case transferrin is the bucket.
If TSAT is low (less than 16%) this indicates iron deficiency. However if TSAT is high, then the bucket is filling up and can't carry much more. In which case it could be dangerous to add more iron.
The consensus seems to be that if TSAT is more than 45% then iron therapy may be risky.
It's not an ideal indicator but the consensus is if somebody with RLS has a ferritin level of less than 100, they need to raise it. The ideal level is 200 at least
This is because there is some relationship between serum (blood) and ferritin brain iron levels.
Hence raising ferritin can help reduce BID.
This is why iron therapy is a recognised treatment for RLS, BEFORE trying to raise adenosine and before trying to reduce glutamate.
Iron isn't always successful hence currently the traditional drug treatment for RLS is dopamine agonists.
More recently gabapentinoids which reduce glutamate have become the preferred treatment.
However it may be that these are both replaced by drugs which raise adenosine.
Iron therapy now and in future will remain the first, simplest and most natural treatment for RLS, more significant than weak dietary alternatives to drug therapies.
I hope this makes sense.
If ferritin is below 75, taking oral iron is recommended.
The problem with taking iron is making sure you ABSORB enough. This will depend on how much you take.
If you only take a small amount you only absorb a small amount.
ODDLY, if you take a large amount you only absorb a small amount too!
Hence it's best to take up to 60mg and no more. It may be better to take iron only tabs not multi vits.
Ferrous bisglycinate is recommended.
It's commonly accepted that acid helps iron absorption, hence taking vitamin C or folic acid at the same time.
Taking antacids or magnesium at the same time should be avoided.
Taking iron in the evening 2 hours after eating is best.
There is evidence that it's better to take iron every OTHER day, not daily
Simply put, this is easier and possibly more effective than attempting to raise adenosine, raise GABA, lower glutamate or deal with dopamine by diet.
so i take iron in a mutivit which has vit c in as well and its 100% of the daily doseage. do i need more than that maybe? and how do i get tsat measured? last time i went doctors about rls they sent me for some blood tests and they came back ok and that was the last i heard from them although i did mention i may need the iron levels in the brain measured
Hi, I'm afraid I don't know exactly what the daily doseage is.
There is a vague figure which these food supplement companies often refer to as "Recommended Daily Allowance". (RDA).
I doñ't know who exactly is saying what the RDA is.
I suspect you may be able to buy the same product from 2 different companies and the RDAs will be different.
I'm not sure also why it's called "allowance". An odd word to use. Does it mean that you shouldn't take more, that's all you should take?
I believe that the RDA is what you should have in a day from ALL SOURCE S. You will get some iron from a normal diet.
I've also read, I recall, that you should only get a percentage of your RDA from a supplement not all of it.
Hence on days you're not fasting if you eat normally and take this tablet then a) you are ignoring the percentage guidance and b) you are taking more than is "allowed".
I'm sorry to go on, and on. I suffer Apergers and like things to spelt out, literally, clearly and unambiguously objective.
"Daily doseage" to me is meaningless.
So what does your product say is the dose, e. a number usually in milligrams, (mg)?
Does it matter what dose you take?
There I can say, believe it or not, I have read research that says it's not advisable to take more than 60mg iron at any one time.
If the "daily doseage" or "RDA" for iron is less than 60mg, then your tablets are OK.
On another matter, tbe iron comes in different forms, e.g. ferrous suplhate, ferrous fumurate, ferrous bisgylcinate etc.
What's in your tabs does it say?
This makes a difference since some forms are more easily absorbed than others.
So for me, being Aspie, I would like to see tabs that it's clearly stated contain ferrous bisglycinate less than 60mg.
If they say 30mg, you could take 2 AT THE SAME TIME. This means you're getting double everything else too.
The importance of this is that issue with iron is not how much you take as much as how much you ABSORB,
In which case it is good to take an easily aborbed iron, (ferrous bisglycinate) and less than 60mg.
Taking more than 60mg, oddly means you absorb LESS.
Also, taking it very day means you will absorb less than if you only take it every other day. Bi-daily dosing can increase how much you absorb by up to 50%.
However, doing this with a multi means you only get half the dose of the other things.
Does that matter? I've no idea really.
I do know, although I suppose I could be challenged, is that most vitamins and minerals you need can be found at RDA levels in a normal healthy diet as long as you have one. I don't recall any evidence that taking any EXTRA to the RDA, is of any help for anything.
Food supplements are good in my opinion if you have an identified DEFICIENCY. If you have a multi deficiency, e.g. due to dietary deficiency then OK a multi-mineral/vitamin supplement would be recommended.
If anybody else however says different, I'm not going to argue with them.
Taking EXTRA of some things, above daily requirements, is pointless since any extra above what's needed will be excreted. This applies to all water based vitamins. It also applies to many minerals, e.g. sodium and potassium. Extra of these in the blood can cause problems in fact.
Some exceptions to this are vitamin B12, vitamin D and iron.
Vitamin B12 isn't often a problem, but it is a problem when it isn't absorbed properly. A variety of things can affect this, e.g. pernicious anaemia, gastrectomy, excessive alcohol.
In these cases taking vitamin B12 is pointless, it won't be absorbed!
Taking vitamin D is probably a good idea for everybody, as it is normally formed in the body by the action of sunlight on the skin. MOST people have a deficiency.
IF you have either vit B12 or vit D deficiency, then correcting these CAN IMPROVE RLS!
Blood test for these vitamins can show whether you have deficiency or not.
Iron is an exception to the extra rule since excess iron in the blood is prevented by a hormone called hepcidin.
This is the reason for limiting the dose and frequency of iron supplementation.
In this case it is almost impossible to get extra iron into the system, hepcidin can prevent it being absorbed. In cases where the hepcidin mechanism isn't being effective, for some reason, even a normal diet, alone, can lead to iron overload and death, if untreated.
Since most of the iron in the body is used for the production of healthy Red Blood Cells, (RBCs), then it's the levels of iron in the blood that are most significant. Too little can lead to iron deficiency anaemia (IDA). Too much can lead to iron toxicity.
Since the body can prevent IDA by using "stored" iron, i.e. FERRITIN, the release of hepcidin is at least partly regulated by ferritin levels.
Low ferritin = less hepcidin = more iron absorbed.
High ferritin = more hepcidin = less iron absorbed.
Hence in most cases where serum iron and ferritin levels are "normal" and no sign of IDA then only about 2% or less of ingested iron is absorbed.
HOWEVER, when it comes to RLS the problem is Brain Iron Deficiency, (BID), not IDA.
For somebody with RLS then, with BID, this cannot normally be corrected simply if serum iron and ferritin are normal and there is no IDA.
It has been shown that serum ferritin levels are loosely associated with brain iron levels.
A significant finding was that normal levels of brain iron can be found in non-RLS with ferritin levels as low as 12. In RLS, generally normal brain levels require a serum ferritin level of 200.
Hence it's a general consensus that it's helpful for RLS to have a ferritin levels of at least 100 ideally 200 and possibly more.
How to do this.
Again, the consensus is that if ferritin is less than 75 then taking an oral iron supplement can help.
To do this you have to "trick" the hepcidin by taking
1) doses less than 60mg
2) only taking it bi-daily.
If ferritin is over 75 then this gets harder, an IV infusion is recommended. This puts iron directly into the blood, bypassing the hepcidin.
The problem with this is it removes the body's control over iron toxicity.
This is where transferrin comes in. Transferrin is a substance which binds to iron and transports it to where it's needed. This is mostly bone marrow. Otherwise, after time it is stored e.g. as ferritin.
How much dangerous "unbound" potentially toxic iron is in the blood is dependent of much transferrin is available and how "saturated" it is, too little transferrin, or too saturated transferrin increases the risk of iron toxicity.
The consensus is if transferrin saturation (TSAT) is more than 45% then it is not safe to have an IV iron infusion or even take oral iron.
HENCE, blood tests for vitamin B12, vitamin D, serum iron, TSAT, ferritin and haemoglobin.
These can be requested from your GP/PCP.
NOTE that being told your ferritin is "OK" means only that is above 12. For somebody with RLS being told it's OK is useless.
You need to know the exact number.
TSAT needs to be under 45%, although OK usually covers that.
It's highly unlikely that you'll ever get brain iron levels tested directly.
The only ways I know about are a lumbar puncture, see the recent post on this. It's risky, you won't get it done for RLS! You're doctor obviously has no idea about RLS and iron.
Another is a specialised MRI. Forget it!
The third is post mortem brain dissection.
Brain levels are inferred from serum ferritin levels.
Sorry about the long winded explanations, I like writing! I used to teach physiology.
It may also be useful for other people reading this too.
For anybody, you can either accept what I write without question. Not that I recommend it!
You can check it out for yourself. Some links below.
You can decide to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your personal beliefs, experiences or preferences. No problem.
For you Danny I suggest
1) get your iron blood test results NUMBERS.
2) get blood tests for vits B12 and D.
3) get some ferrous bisglycinate tabs and vit C tabs and take one or two of the tabs no more than 60mg. Take the vit C at the same time.
4) get B12 and D tabs IF NECESSARY.
OR
3) check what the iron is in your multi vits. Is it ferrous bisglycinate, is it less than 60mg?
All iron is best taken every other evening 2 hours afer last eating. Do NOT take an antacid or magnesium at the same time.
Links
mayoclinicproceedings.org/a...
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/319...
Further as regards fasting, I believe this can be good for all sorts of things and think there is some evidence for these. I don't know.
I also don't know of any evidence that fasting helps with RLS, directly and specifically. I've yet to come across any.
There is a lot of evidence about what to eat or avoid eating for RLS. I suggest if fasting fits in with your personal beliefs and experiences then I'd encourage you to carry on, no matter what the evidence is.
I hope this helps.
Best wishes.
wow thankyou for that informative answer il take some time to digest it later and get back to you. best rgds
Incidentally. If you live in the UK, all GPs are supposed to give you online access to your medical record. This includes any blood results. I mean results, numbers, whether they're OK or not.
You can even find things out that they never told you.
I've been doing this for years.
In most cases, I have been able to get my blood results the next day.
in reply to danny9849
If ever the fasting fails you, which I doubt it will, look at my profile page for a helpful way to take iron.
Thank you for all that info, I take Glucosamin for my painful hands and back. Is this OK
I believe it's recommended for arthritis.
You don't need my opinion. I thinks it's fine.
Thank you I just wondered as it begins with Gluco if it was related to Glucomate.
sciencedaily.com/releases/2...
I've actually been advocating for this for quite awhile. Aside from my advocating for it, other people, such as yourself, have been popping in here indicating a tremendous improvement in RLS symptoms thanks to fasting. May have to be done long term. Worth it don't you think?
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