Diazepan addiction.

[Paul007]

Hiya I haven't posted for about 8 months but would like some thoughts from fellow sufferers. I've been taking 10mg of Diazepan for roughly 2 yrs after Clonazepan stopped working. My question is what damage is there from long term Diazepan use. I already feel like a zombie from the Diazepan but it does work.

[Hidden]

"I already feel like a zombie from the Diazepan but it does work."

First of all you need to distinguish between addiction and dependence. From what you say you are DEPENDENT on Diazepam as a means to control RLS. Currently I am dependant on Targinact, (Oxycodone) and my diet to control my RLS.

Addiction is a compulsion to use a particular drug/food/activity for a 'high' or escape from reality/problems and is causing you problems.

I have at various times been dependant on Tramadol, codeine, Mirapexin, Cannabis, Kratom, Targinact and other drugs/substances I can't remember to control my RLS - I was never addicted to them and stopped them once they could no longer help my RLS or the side effects were causing problems.

To answer the concern about the long term effects of Diazepam, I think that it shouldn't cause you too many problems physically, (always keeping to the smallest dose you can). You may need to increase the dose as your body comes to tolerate them more and more however I do believe that it will loose its efficacy over time and you will likely need to change drug.

HOWEVER, the big problem, and to me its a big problem, is as you say you feel like a zombie, (again taking the smallest dose and at the best time is a way to minimise this). This means you will be prevented from experiencing life. All experiences will be coloured by the zombie feeling which could damage relationships or even create a low grade depression and feelings of isolation.

HOWEVER, its not all bad. As your body gets used to the drug the zombie feelings should subside. I used to get hight on cannabis as a younger man as I seldom took it. When using it for an extended period of time I could have smoked joints til my lungs rip themselves out of my body and left muttering something about returning for revenge and I still wouldn't have been high.

When we are forced to use any drug we always have to weigh up the side effects against the beneficial effects - I have often been in a zombie state, sometimes for months due to the lack of sleep, constant moving and pain from RLS, I would have preferred a zombie state from a drug that killed the pain and RLS.

Hope that helps. Take care

[Paul007 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you Raffs for the great reply. Have you tried diazepam

[Hidden in reply to Paul007]

I've had them as a muscle relaxant after an injury and found them unpleasant as I felt zombie like and that was only 2mg although I think I had a strong painkiller too but that is going back more decades than I like to remember.

[Hidden]

Just to second what raffs said. All benzodiazepines are similar in that they produce dependency and cease to be effective after a while. I've watched them develop in number over the years, I wonder if they're actually different or if they just change the name once one gets a bad reputation!

Librium, valium, temazepam, lorazepam, clonazepam etc.

Anyway, I'm not aware that they actually do any harm long term unless you abuse them, i.e. take more that's prescribed.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that it will be OK as long as they work. Then you'll have to move on.

[Paul007 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you for the reply. Like I've said they do work for me and I've dropped to an amount as low as I can possibly go but I am worried about long term affects. This time last year I weaned myself off all meds to see how bad my condition was. It took 20 weeks to stop the meds and the withdrawal was hell. But I got to see how bad my rls/plm was and after 3 weeks of no more than 1-2 hours sleep I gave in started taking Diazepam again. Soul destroying after going through all the withdrawal but its shown me I need them. But long term use does concern me

[Hidden in reply to Paul007]

I did reply to you again, but it seems to have disappeared!

So hopefully, it won't this time.

You say you dropped ALL your meds. If this was all at the same time then how can you say what the withdrawal effects for each one are. If you were on meds for RLS other than Valium and your RLS got worse then it didn't necessarily mean starting valium again. I.e. just valium.

Did you start all your meds again?

Valium isn't really useful for RLS as far as I'm aware. It used to be used for anxiety and insomnia. It's somewhat outdated now. It is a muscle relaxant which might help RLS - a bit. Gabapentin might be more effective. That has it's own drawbacks.

If you need something to help you sleep, there are alternatives.

There are few physical long term effects. With long term use there is only the danger that you will become addicted and start abusing it.

You sound too sensible for that.

[Paul007 in reply to Hidden]

I've had rls/plm for over 25 yrs. Tried countless meds including Gabapentin and many other alternatives. I can honestly say as a long term sufferer that Diazepan works for me. Clonazepan worked for around 5 yrs but I built up a tolerance and was glad to come off them. I've only ever taken one med at a time as I'm not a fan of chemicals. But after seeing how my rls/plm condition had worsened I gave in and went back to Diazepan. I would just like to hear someone's experience of being on them for a prolonged amount of time

[Hidden in reply to Paul007]

OK, great that it works for you,

You might find that nobody's taken Diazepam long term for RLS because it's not commonly prescribed for it. Some people may have taken it long term for anxiety, perhaps you could ask in the Healthunlocked Anxiety community.

[Paul007 in reply to Hidden]

I've had rls/plm for over 25 years and have tried all the meds associated with rls relief and none of them have been good enough. I've also been under a neurologist at the UCLH Hospital in London for many years and we've tried all types of meds. No one should dismiss diazepan unless they've tried it and it was my neurologist who suggested it. I know it works but I'm afraid of the long term use.

[Hidden in reply to Paul007]

Sorry, didn't intend to be dismissive. If it works for you then it works. I am just surprised that it does.

Also, as you want to hear from anyone who's used it long term then I was just suggesting the RLS community is perhaps the wrong place.

Looking at the literature, it still appears that the long term danger appears to be addiction and cognitive impairment.

There seems to be no clear cut evidence that Diazepam causes dementia. It's apparently more complicated than that.

You might find this link useful

nhs.uk/news/neurology/presc...

[Parminter]

Paul, what other meds do you take?

[Paul007]

None I hate the idea of mixing chemicals. I stick to a strict non caffeine diet and cut out alcohol and other foods.

[Hidden in reply to Paul007]

I've been forced to go dairy and gluten free and although I am taking Targinact, my body is quiet - as quiet as its ever been.

I cannot suggest those two changes enough - I can still have my coffee, (as long as most is decaf and I don't go crazy on the caffinated one), and on an odd occasion, very odd, I can even have a GF beer - life isn't great but its beating 18 hours of agony followed by 1-2 drugged hours of sleep.

I wouldn't worry too much about the long term effects if I were you - you're keeping the dose low and you are not a fan of chemicals - both will keep you addiction free - the long term effects of Diazepam use are nothing compared to the long term experience of bad RLS.

[Paul007 in reply to Hidden]

I've seen how bad my condition is without the meds and certainly don't want to go back to that. Gluten Free beer is definitely something I'll be trying

[Hidden in reply to Paul007]

I find Peroni more palatable than Daura, both available at ADSA if you can access one - mind you I am no connoisseur.

[Bajatom]

bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g52...

[Paul007 in reply to Bajatom]

Scary yet very interesting. Thank you for this Bajatom, the issue highlighted is my biggest concern.

[Hidden in reply to Bajatom]

Well done for finding that. An interesting little article. It actually appears to be a critique of a study, not a study in itself. It seems to be the OPINION of a private British psychiatrist, (it's in the British Medical Journal) basically saying that benzodiazepines have a bad reputation for no real reason. This psychiatrist has been using it to treat anxiety for 39 years. He is therefore older.

He also says that it's safe and effective according to a report from nearly 30 years ago.

He claims that studies apparently showing a connection between benzodiazepines and Alzheimer are flawed since the subjects had already got Organic Brain Disease anyway.

He claims that there is a negatively biased view of benzodiazepines in the medical literature.

My OPINION is this guy is trying to defend his 39 years of what appears to be bad practice. Diazepam particularly fell out of favour decades ago because it was thought to be unsafe and not particularly effective.

Why unsafe? If you follow the link, thanks Bajatom, you will see immediately underneath one thing that's unsafe about benzodiazepines.

The majority of doctors in the UK will adhere to the NICE guidelines (National Institute for Health and Care Excellence) which although a little dated (2011) state that Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors should be used for anxiety.

AND

Benzodiazepines should NOT be used - "except for short term use in a crisis".

This is a good example of the dangers of reading such articles. This particular article on the face of it appears to be fairly believable because it appears in a professional journal. It isn't what it appears to be. The author appears biased and out of touch. Furthermore, he is not saying that benzodiazepine use causes Alzheimers, he's saying it doesn't. He might be as wrong about that as he seems to be about benzodiazepines being safe and effective.

The NICE guidance on RLS recommends first line treatments for RLS as Dopamine agonists or alpha-2-delta ligands.

Opiates are recommended as an alternative

A short course of, or intermittent use of Benzodiazepines is only recommended for people with significant sleep disturbance, i.e. to treat insomnia not RLS.

Apologies for rambling on, one of my hobby horses is needing to be skeptical the credibility of whatever you read. I'm more likely to believe the recommendations of a national body based on evidence against the opinion of a single person based on their individual experience.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Benzodiazepines should NOT be used - "except for short term use in a crisis".

I think that is more to do with addiction and to stop old school Drs firing out 'Mothers little helper' like they were antidepressants!!

Got a dig in about over prescription of two types of drugs there - well done me

But seriously - as long as Paul007 is sure about the addictive side, which he does appear to be, then physically he should be OK.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Yes, I agree, NICE have to take the conservative view, (not be confused with "Conservative" before we go off on that again). Discouraging the likes of the private psychiatrist in the article Bajatom gives a link to, who apparently has been handing out happy pills to thousands of paying customers over 39 years. I bet they go back for more, and pay more.

Have to get my own dig in, slightly better than a private consultant I once knew who was giving women methamphetamine to help them lose weight.

Yes I agree also, Paul should be OK. He's aware of the potential for addiction. He did stop the Clonazepam when it stopped working instead of taking more and more. Seems a sensible guy.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I agree. As much as I might dis Drs, I in no way envy them their position, I think they have a tough job keeping people safe from drugs in the benzo or opiate class - they are often 1st in the line for blame.

I just wish they were as careful with antidepressants!

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Sounds like there's a story behind that.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Millions of them worldwide unfortunately.

[HeLovesus]

Please go to YouTube and seek out “Benzo Brains’” videos. A Benzo is a Benzo. I am now 4 days off of Klonopin after 6 or so years. An amazing life; truly. My original GAD was never as bad as being “gone” for these years.

God is so, so good!