Is suffering a necessary part of the human condition?
What would people who never suffered be like?
Is suffering a necessary part of the human condition?
What would people who never suffered be like?
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A lot of suffering is brought on by others . We worry and we care . Some is self inflicted as we over think or wallow in self pity . Some is crippling pain , illness both mental and physical . Thank goodness we have a lot of positives going for us too .
To your understanding, what would it be like for people who never suffer?
Hey - that's a good one . I don't wish suffering on anyone but unless we had no pain receptors and really no compassion ? I suppose we would live in Utopia but I can't see an equal human world free from cruelty and pain of every form . Restricted emotions , devoid of natural sensitivity . How would we know if others were suffering if we didn't ever suffer? I haven't a vision of a real world without suffering. I actually feel horrible saying this .
Yes we all suffered or are suffering through life. How do you measure if one’s suffer is less or more than others?
You can't , you don't . It is personal . How do you measure pain ? That silly voice ...hmm and howz the pain today on a scale of 1 to 10 ...I don't have the strength to thump you. .
Let’s put in 2 categories: mentally and physically. Physically, as I give out pain meds esp narcotics by asking what is the scale of your pain from 1 to 10. Body pain can be addressed by physicians to give out appropriate treatment. What about mentally pain? It is personal, isn’t it?
Yep . I would say mental pain is more personal but physical pain - meds etc . Some have higher pain thresholds .My Dad once cut his arm badly and seemed to breathe over the pain . My son would scream if a tiny splash of hot water hit him . We know very little about how to treat chronic pain . Look at the drugs available and how old most of them are . Modern tech ain't that great either . I feel we have more empathy with physical pain .
Very true to your statement, for common pain, some reach for pain meds right away while some can power through and let it pass. For chronic pain as bad as fibromyalgia, people have to take strong medication and cope as part of their life. So what do they tell themselves? they are the sufferers?
I would feel I was a sufferer . Luckily my pain has only ever been temp .
Hey good Morning Koko! Good question to ponder. I'll come back later to get at this
Good morning Gb3 ☀️😁. I’ll patiently wait for your awareness 👍
I'd say it's universal. Change can be a big part of that. Whether it be internal or external, there always comes a period of adaptation, and that is in itself suffering. Examples may include birth, or sickness, or aging. These are all changes and while they are a natural occurrence, all of them may lead to a lot of pain and subsequent suffering because there is a change happening and we need to go through it. A part of us may wish it to be over sooner and that leads to suffering, which leads into another psychological part, one that we mainly refer to when we think of suffering. Grasping, and clinging, and holding onto the ego (the past or identifying with the future). That is also suffering when the reality is not good enough for us or we are so far in the deep end that we cannot differentiate between reality and illusion. That place of feeling trapped in between is suffering.
Hi Gb3. It is true we can suffer with the thought why me? Why we have to suffer. So raising our awareness so we can stop that Why question furthering the pain. Reality is reality and we can approach things more realistically to the best we can versus illusion which just gets us more down to the rabbit hole. As you mentioned that change is the inevitable part that we human has to go through as suffering is part of life and adaptation is needed, am I reading you correctly?
Yes it is nonnegotiable. I would extend it to all sentient beings. Ever seen an animal depressed? They suffer just the same. Why add more suffering on top of suffering? That would be self inflicted
Yes, my friend’s dog got depressed for a little bit when he had to stay with me while my friend had to travel overseas for a while but then he got used to me and extremely happy when I gave him treats. He didn’t even wanna leave me to go back to my friend 😂👍.
Animals dont have existential crisis. 😅 They do get depressed if they are mistreated or neglected. Animals don’t suffer the same as human because they do not contemplate to the point of self inflicted or commit suicide in some extreme cases for people.
I was actually having some conversation with my friend about this. Our mind is almost like the ocean, waves upon waves. Some waves are higher, and between two waves there is a depression. Which way is to get out of this continuous up and down process?!
Yes I agree with that. Though it doesn't even have to come to that. If we leave Stella with someone else cause we're taking a trip, she will refuse to eat (even food we pack just for her) and be really sad barely move around. But when we pick her up she's all good. It's a change in routine and environment that's tough for her.
The waves are a part of life. There's gonna be highs and lows. It's not like you can always ride a big one and never settle down to a low one. It's not an easy thing to do, but you best find a way to roll with it
i must wholeheartedly disagree... and science is on my side...
studies have shown that other animals have exhibited 'suffering' in similar ways to us.... in particular - other simians. also included in this group - dolphins and whales!!
now we could argue whether they experience the same kind or depth of awareness... but it's clear that they do have self-awareness in the very least. this trait is somewhat rare in the animal world - but definitely NOT limited to conceited humans!!!
I don’t understand that Old Testament stuff. Are you implying suffering is an inherent part of being human because someone are an Apple?
in answer to your posts' question...
suffering may not be necessarily part of the human condition. but i don't think it's possible to escape life without at least some.
what would people who never suffered be like??? EASY!!! they'd be insufferable!!!!!!!!!
In the dark, we see the stars. 😁 I will wait for everyone sharing perspectives. 👍
I agree. Empathy is the ability to put oneself in someone else’s shoes. So, if one never suffers, one would have never suffered in someone else’s shoes either. Such a person would lack compassion. Such a person would probably come across as self-sanctimonious, right? Glib. Superficially charming? They’d see others merely as a path to personal gain? Am I literally defining a sociopath? What was that German word- schadenfreude? They’d have that, probably. So yes, they’d be insufferable. 😳I don’t think I’d ever want to meet such a person.
i couldn't agree more strongly with you on every single solitary point!!!!! (sociopath and/or psychopath)
Is there an evolutionary reason for those with the dark triad of behaviors? I wonder about this. What evolutionary purpose do the three antisocial characteristics serve? Are these types of people useful in society? If our goals align? Do they make better surgeons? And eyebrow-pluckers? As long as they aren’t breaking the law?
positively brilliant chain of thought!!!!
as if i should be surprised!!! i've wondered exactly the same thing!!!
why exactly does it seem that evolution is flooding us with these kinds of people??? what purpose DO they serve????
maybe - it's evolutions way of causing us to exterminate ourselves!!!!!!
it's evolution correcting a mistake!!!!!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!
Rob, you mentioned evolution. As we see throughout out many plagues, wars, natural disasters, human has the immense capacity to adjust to any social situation, geographical situation, climate situation; and human can manage and live on for centuries. What do you think why is that ? 🤔
I think the dark triad folks will take out the overly empathetic ones. What is left is the strong and industrious middle. That is why I post so much stuff from Outofthefog on here. I want all the empaths to survive the apocalypse!
great point, Ava!
i want the same as you... but fear, and suspect, that we are doomed to extinction.
as much as we would like to believe in fairy tales....
"nice guys RARELY finish first". especially when they are so outnumbered by the uncivilized sheeple hoards.
You bring human nature behaviors on a more personal level into the equation of evolution. By understanding the ugliness of human behaviors, we can protect ourselves as well as we won’t take up those behaviors. Evolution is defined in short version as “any net directional change or any cumulative change in the characteristics of organisms or populations over many generations.” Would changes come directly from each individual to one another or according to the inevitable changes of life as we go?
i think the answer to your 'why' question is simple. because evolution made us this way. whether that turns out to be for the good of our species or a complete mistake- remains to be seen. evolution isn't always right - it pre-selects for what seems to be advantageous at a point in time - but as environment changes - so must and does evolution.
just because we've appeared on the scene - doesn't mean that evolution wants us here. we're just one of evo's many experiments.
Opportunity makes this point very well... i think the empathetic people are doomed to be overrun by the narcissists and self-interested. this is counter to what evolution originally selected for. how this came to be isn't evolutions' fault - but our own. we have polluted our world and bodies and minds to such an extent that we are causing this. you can't blame this on evolution simply because we're a product of that.
if a child to horrible parents becomes a serial killer - you can't blame that on evolution. that blames lies at the feet of the parents, and society.
back to your last paragraph, Koko... just because humanity has survived for centuries- does NOT guarantee our continued survival!!! number 1 rule - "past performance does not guarantee future returns"!!!!
as we've discussed in many conversations - there are literally dozens of reasons why humanity will not live beyond THIS century!!!! of course they may all be wrong - but i doubt it... there's soo many different pathways to our destruction - and far too few that even see, let alone heed the warnings!!!
Rob, as you said:” you can't blame this on evolution simply because we're a product of that.“, so human is the product of an automatic process of evolution. On human’s path of evolution, is it possible that at some time in the future, humanity as a whole can attain enlightenment? At what point of evolution for human today?
P.S. you contradicted yourself by saying that evolution is selecting for narcissists but then you say you can’t blame bad parents on evolution. 😂
i didn't mean to contradict myself - i probably said that poorly...
not every aspect of who we are as humans is due to evolution. some of it is self-inflicted. that we are able to self inflict this - IS a product of evolution. narcissism isn't selected directly by evolution. but is a product of all the things that evolution has selected for - or a product of a product twice removed... based on what we KNOW about the psyche of infants - narcissims is a contradiction to what evolution has selected for. evo - favors group cooperation and consideration. narcissism favors only the individual - at the expense of the group!!! this is in obscene disagreement with what evo wants!!
can humanity as a whole attain enlightenment? i certainly think this is possible... but realistically - i don't think we can survive long enough for that to happen.
it's more likely that some small group within humanity will attain enlightenment - while the greater portion remains ignorant. but again - i have my doubts that this will happen before we become extinct.
as to at what point... well - i cant even speculate - but i don't see it happening anytime soon!!! ooops did i just speculate?? heheh
Thank you Rob for your interesting spins on many subjects. 😁🙏❤️
Again, You cannot self inflict if you are asleep because it's all happening unconsciously like you said before.
There are many factors contributing to evolution as we are unsure if we will survive or extinct in the future.
There’s only one 🌍 is here and now. I like looking at things as a whole so raise your glass and cheers to the conscious evolution begins. 😁🥂
People are not sociopaths or psychopaths because they haven't suffered.
I agree. We all may agree on that. We digressed. The original question was “What would a person who has never suffered be like.” I’m thinking someone who never suffered would be like a sociopath. ... and on it went from there... What do you think a person who never suffered would be like, Marnie?
marnie - interesting perspective...
i think i would agree with you...
i think people that haven't suffered are more likely to become selfish, childish, narcissists. as such - they may have higher probability of being a socio/psycho-path - because all socio/psycho-paths ARE narcissistic! but some are oscar winning actors, and can hide this exceptionally well!
so, this doesn't except them from becoming sociopaths and/or psychopaths!
nor does suffering or not - guarantee membership or exclusion to those 'clubs' ...
It's not true that people who haven't suffered are more likely to become narcissists, etc. Also, you can't lump sociopaths and psychopaths in a category together, they are very different things. The terms 'sociopath, ' 'psychopath' and 'narcissist' are distinct and different if we go by the clinical definitions. These terms are bandied about without people knowing what they actually mean.
marnie; tx again for taking the time to reply... i appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.
we can't really say for sure what people that haven't suffered are actually like - this was a philosophical question - no such person exists - at least not that i'm aware. if you check the definitions of socio/psycho-paths - you will notice that you can lump them together. in fact some definitions define the two terms as synonymous! tho - most define the sociopath as a "milder" case of psychopathy. narcissism is a distinct term - but i'm not aware of any socio/psycho-paths that do not also qualify as a narcissist.
i very much agree with you that these terms are bandied about without people knowing what they actually mean.
i also agree that these are difficult conversations to have - because as much as 25% of the population qualify as having some level of psychopathy; and thus also narcissism - tho - those with narcissism number far more than only 25%. those with these afflictions are unwilling to see that they are so afflicted... so trying to discuss this with one of them is like talking to paint, and expecting it to dry faster!
Here are links to articles which will clarify things for you:
I was trained in and worked in mental health and we had specialists teach us about these things.
Good morning Gb2 ☀️😁. No worries we will get on it with everyone perspectives 👍
Yes to a small extent. Suffering can teach us lessons etc.
That’s the spirit Gb2😁👍
Hi Jerry, I agree often time we are our worst enemies, therefore, it is important to work on our mindset always.
As far as suffering goes with an ego, Eckhart Tolle said: “The ego says, 'I shouldn't have to suffer,' and that thought makes you suffer so much more. It is a distortion of the truth, which is always paradoxical. The truth is that you need to say yes to suffering before you can transcend it.”
For serious illness, I think it is very crucial to have a combination of working on our mindset as well as having appropriate medical treatment plans along with support of loved ones.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.😊🙏
Gb2, have you heard an apple a day keeps the doctor away? Take the whole basket and make some apple pies or apple juice extracts 😂😂😂
I love fruits cake with coffee or tea always 😋
I love almond milk for my granola bowl. 😋
Very good or else I’m gonna have to ask Rob as the cheese and dairy guy expert to raise your awareness. 😂😂😂
Be careful what you wish for☝️Rob will be more than happy to tell you. 😂😂😂
I don’t know who this Osho is, but he is wrong about Birds and trees not being aware. They are aware and they do suffer. With regard to the question, I would think people who have not suffered, might find it difficult to be sympathetic and caring to people who have suffered.
We are talking about a deeper form of suffering that trees and birds don’t experience. They don’t contemplate to inflict pain upon themselves. They don’t even know what kind of trees or birds they are.
How do you know what trees or birds know?
'A new study out of the University of Tübingen in Germany published September 25th in Science suggests that birds such as crows may indeed have a subjective reality. Consciousness can have many levels. The lowest level is sentience - or the ability to have a point of view.'
Full article: forbes.com/sites/fernandeze...
I will continuously wait for scientific proofs that trees and/or birds suffer the same form as human does. 👍😁🌸
Jeremy Bentham, the founder of the reforming utilitarian school of moral philosophy, stated that when deciding on a being’s rights, “The question is not ‘Can they reason?’ nor ‘Can they talk?’ but ‘Can they suffer?’” In that passage, Bentham points to the capacity for suffering as the vital characteristic that gives a being the right to equal consideration. The capacity for suffering is not just another characteristic like the capacity for language or higher mathematics. All animals have the ability to suffer in the same way and to the same degree that humans do. They feel pain, pleasure, fear, frustration, loneliness, and motherly love. Whenever we consider doing something that would interfere with their needs, we are morally obligated to take them into account.
Supporters of animal rights believe that animals have an inherent worth—a value completely separate from their usefulness to humans. We believe that every creature with a will to live has a right to live free from pain and suffering. Animal rights is not just a philosophy—it is a social movement that challenges society’s traditional view that all nonhuman animals exist solely for human use. As PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk has said, “When it comes to pain, love, joy, loneliness, and fear, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. Each one values his or her life and fights the knife.”
Only prejudice allows us to deny others the rights that we expect to have for ourselves. Whether it’s based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or species, prejudice is morally unacceptable. If you wouldn’t eat a dog, why eat a pig? Dogs and pigs have the same capacity to feel pain, but it is prejudice based on species that allows us to think of one animal as a companion and the other as dinner.
Taken from the PETA website.
I am an animal lover and animal whisperer. I support their rights for sure. ❤️ And I will be waiting for scientific proofs that trees and/or birds suffer the same form as human does. 👍😁🌸
Why does it have to be 'the same form?' Humans are not what everything else has to be measured against.
Higher forms of consciousness have deeper suffering. Hence existential crisis n suicide in humans.
Where is the scientific proof for that idea?
It’s basic knowledge 😂😂😂
Whose basic knowledge? You have been arguing that you will believe things when you have the scientific proof, now you are fine with 'basic knowledge.' It's a line of thought from Osho that you are arguing for. I don't recall him being a qualified scientist. There is no point discussing things if you just move the goalposts when it suits you. Goodnight.
Trees dont have a nervous system, thus the concept of feeling isnt really applicable to them. Animals on the other hand don't get enough credit. Rats can recognize indivdual humans and even prefer the company of some people more than others. Crows will give gifts to people who help them. There is a lot of science which is starting to point to the idea that animals have emotions (they certainly act like they do) even if they may not experience them the same way we do.
Yes they do for sure, just not on the same level as humans. What is your perspective on human suffering as my post’s questions? 😁
Light cant even exist without the idea of dark to compare it to. Joy wouldnt stand out to be noticed as a distinct thing unless pain also existed, otherwise joy would just be a baseline that would be as un-noticed as the air we breathe or the fabric of the universe iteself. To a being that didint know pain, joy would mean nothing. It wouldnt be cherished or sought, or valued, the idea of it wouldnt even exist. We can know love only becuase we can also know hate, we can suffer but only because we can also feel joy, we can live but only because we can also die. Good requires evil, light requires dark, Yin requires Yang, they cant exist independantly. The negation one is a negation of both.
Excellent Links Marnie, thank you. There was a programme on tv a few months ago about the trees talking/ communicating to each other. May have been on Country file. I found it fascinating and it made a lot of sense.
It's a really interesting subject.
You are a dolphin, I get it 😂😂😂👍
Keep fighting and push on
Love is suffering.
Birds and other animals are certainly aware. Suffering is a human definition and subject to wide interpretation and matters of degree. I do not believe it is a necessary part of the human condition or related to an animal’s awareness.
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