Update on broccoli seed extract study - Parkinson's Movement

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Update on broccoli seed extract study

wriga
wriga

The following is an updated article about the study completed by 8 PwP.

It gives you a summary of the biological processes, the first results and what the high response symptoms may be telling us about the mechanisms involved. I am still waiting for detailed statistical analysis and for further feedback from Prof Jed Fahey. Finally I make a suggestion about what I think should be done next. There is little point in just repeating the same experiment with a few more people. The next trial has to be done better, much better... with more professionalism, proper chemical and clinical analysis and more rigour. That is going to cost money ....

It's here

wp.me/pc57vK-1o

42 Replies

I'm a big fan of sulforaphane's role in Nrf2 activation. The few things people need to watch out for is the possibility of iodine deficiency (supplement Lugol's at alternate times not being deficient on selenium) and being sure that molybdenum-dependent detox enzymes aren't underperforming not to experience sulfite related toxicity (or sulfate deficiency blocking sulfation pathway) - build up very slowly and not be deficient in molybdenum and methyl donors.

Hi Rescue,

I've not gone into the detail of iodine or selenium deficiency. That's not to minimise your remarks, but I'm a believer in the 80/20 rule. I think the decline of the Nrf2 pathway is 80% of the problem . Get that right and the rest falls into place.

I noticed on another post you did that you favour broccoli shoots rather than seeds because of anti-neutrients. No problem with that argument, but I don't think it's a very powerful one. My belief in the seeds route is that it gives better bioavailability using my protocol which converts glucoraphanin to sulforaphane before you ingest it. With raw sprouts you can't get that, but you can if you microwave them at 60C . Unfortunately there is no easy way to ingest sulforaphane. We need to work on a good delivery system.

rescuema
rescuema in reply to wriga

It may not be a powerful one but I'm convinced of the effects of antinutrients (including erucic acid) so best to avoid them - some may be more sensitive than others. I soak/spout all seeds including brown rice and noticed profound benefits myself. : )

I'm not aware of your exact protocol, but there's no harm in sprouting the seeds up to 48 hrs as to using the straight seeds. You can use the young sprouted seeds (with little roots), or freeze them, then heat + blend it to convert to sulforaphane. I also use daikon sprouts to maximize the conversion while avoiding epithiospecifier protein shift.

For those who're sensitive, I say at least just eat the broccoli sprouts and let the gut bacteria perform the conversion (supply myrosinase) even if at low sulforaphane conversion around 10% - this might prevent unintended overdose in itself while providing myriad other nutritional benefits.

I agree with you on Nrf2 decline - of the many compounds that can help reactivate it, I prefer sulforaphane and I believe it also helps control gut pathogens.

wriga
wriga in reply to rescuema

Rescue, I see that you are fully informed on the published science. My experience is that the sprouts route doesn't work well for me, but I know it works for others. The question of anti-nutrients in seeds may well be the cause of adverse effects at higher doses in the study I report on. I have no means of knowing. One solution might be to germinate seeds for 2-3 days, with all the washing etc. to get rid of ... whatever is causing the problem ??? , then dry them so that they can be ground to a powder. Just an idea.. I also agree with Daikon seeds or sprouts for myrosinase, it may be better than white mustard . I did not propose it because it's harder to get hold of.

rescuema
rescuema in reply to wriga

The reason I don't prefer mustard seeds is that they're also full of erucic acid, and the seeds get mucilaginous when attempting to sprout and get slimy, not easy to handle. Daikon seeds are incredibly easy to sprout. Soak them overnight, and then rinse twice a day until sprouts appear - literally in 2 days, but I let them glow out as long as they want as a source of clean myrosinase conversion. They have a harsh bite (a sign of myrosinase) but I personally love to munch on them. I got these seeds amazon.com/gp/product/B0010...

I also make sure to buy organic seeds. Possibly glyphosate tainted seeds can block phase II detox in itself so I'm careful of that.

The side effects that people noticed may be thyroid-related (sulforaphane causing iodine deficiency) or it may be because of sulfite toxicity with inadequate enzyme actions (molybdenum deficiency?) amongst others. eonutrition.co.uk/post/sulf...

Here's my protocol that works for me -

Sprout for 48hrs (soak for 4 hrs, then rinse 2x a day - very easy). Use the young sprouted seeds or freeze them (maximize sulforaphane) at that point place them in an ice cube tray for easy daily availability.

Heat water, then pour into a cup with a tea strainer. Something like this mug will work great - amazon.com/Sweese-2101-Porc...

Use an IR non contact infrared thermometer (I use the one by Etkcity), and pour cold/hot water until the temp shows 159F.

I place the sprouts in the tea strainer and wait 10 minutes with the cover on.

Take it out, blend it (I use an immersion blender) with some of now lukewarm water. Alternately forget the temp and blend cooked/steeped sprouts with some daikon sprouts below 160F. Wait a few minutes for sulforaphane conversion before consuming, since stomach PH will lower the bioavailability.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to rescuema

Are you talking about the broccoli seeds when you say sprout 48 hours or the daikon?

And what is your ratio/ quantities of broccoli vs daikon seed?

rescuema
rescuema in reply to LAJ12345

broccoli seeds. They'll about double in size with little roots showing, and ready to use or freeze. You can even eat them straight if not worried about maximizing sulforaphane conversion. Daikon will sprout even faster, and you can use them for way over a week fresh as long as they taste hot.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to rescuema

What was the quantity and ratio required of each?I just want a rough and ready every day type of cooks recipe rather than an accurate scientific method.

Eg if I take 1/2 tsp broccoli and 1/2 tsp daikon seeds. Soak overnight, rinse through a tea strainer then sit in a cup of hottish but not boiling water for 5 minutes is that close enough?

rescuema
rescuema in reply to LAJ12345

I'd get a few wide mouth mason jars, and get some sprouting lids such as these. They'll simplify the soaking/rinsing process. amazon.com/UPGRADED-Aozita-...

Sprout the seeds separately. Once sprouted, steep broccoli sprouts for 10 minutes, and add some daikon sprouts when below 160F, blend, wait a few minutes and drink.

If not worried about being scientific, grow broccoli sprouts and just eat them at all stages or incorporate into your diet/cooking. Add them to salad, sandwich, or stir fry. You still get up to 100x more glucoraphanin than mature broccoli.

You don't need to worry about daikon seeds if not worried about maximizing the isothiocyanate. You can also simply buy some arugula leaves and they'll also supply myrosinase to go along with cooked sprouts. You only need a very tiny amount, as little as 2% by volume, but no harm in adding more.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to rescuema

I’m no good at sprouting as I get busy and forget them and then they are all slimy and smelly. I always end up throwing them away. I thought they were as effective in the first days before growing much?

rescuema
rescuema in reply to LAJ12345

Then make a batch as I've mentioned above and freeze them for daily use. I can't imagine anyone failing at this as long as you have good viable seeds with a good germination rate. Literally, soak 4 hours, and even if you fail and forget to rinse them they'll germinate.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to rescuema

Ok thanks. I usually get that far but when I try to grow them to an edible length is where I fail. How many grams per day of the dry seed do you need? I’m thinking if I can just throw them in a glass of water at night then use them in the morning I can manage that

rescuema
rescuema in reply to LAJ12345

The dosage is tricky depending on the seeds - some are higher and others are much lower in the precursor. Through the freezing/maximizing method, it is said about 30g sprouts (older) will yield 30mg adequate sulforaphane for benefit but this will obviously vary greatly, and for PWP you want to start even lower - about a tsp 48hr sprouts, or less at 1-3g to start for weekly monitoring/increase for safety. I personally noticed benefit at as little as 1 tsp a day.

GrandmaBug
GrandmaBug in reply to rescuema

So, I sprout broccoli seeds, it’s easy enough. I eat about 1/2 cup per day as part of my daily salad greens. Am I getting the value I should with this amount?

rescuema
rescuema in reply to GrandmaBug

That's probably around 40g sprouts for 1/2 cup.

Sulforaphane content varies widely depending on the seed genotype - anywhere between 5 to 60mg per 100g broccoli sprouts. If you assume about 10% conversion, you'd need 300g fresh sprouts for 30mg sulforaphane.

If you heat the sprouts to 60C (140F) to deactivate the epithiospecifier protein (which redirects the pathway causing waste of the precursor), you'll maximize the sulforaphane yield especially if you blend and let the glucosinolate + myrosinase to convert to sulforaphane before ingestion to attain the maximum benefit (sublingual and vagus nerve brain-gut axis exposure, killing off stomach pathogens such as H. pylori, etc). You'll need significantly less per wriga for PD benefits through such delivery.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/151...

Here's a video easy to follow (I simply drain off some of the water before blending) -

youtube.com/watch?v=Z7buU-P...

GrandmaBug
GrandmaBug in reply to rescuema

Thank you so much. The video, in particular, was especially helpful.

rescuema
rescuema in reply to GrandmaBug

You're welcome.

For simplicity, know that glucoraphanin precursor is not heat-sensitive so you can simply cook or steep the broccoli sprouts in hot/boiling water, and then once cooled (anywhere below 60C), add daikon sprouts (the myrosinase lacks the main epithiospecifier proteins) and blend to convert to max sulforaphane. If you sprout broccoli seeds, you'll love sprouting daikon seeds.

I also believe in the value of eating raw sprouts, so keep doing that as well as long as you enjoy it.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to wriga

How do you microwave at 60 degrees to get the right temperature?

That’s very promising. I hope you get some funding.

Here’s some New Zealand organic daikon seeds too. The Amazon ones seem to be sold out. Packet is small though but I think might be available in bulk at the right time of year?

kingsseeds.co.nz/shop/Sprou...

Broccoli bulk

kingsseeds.co.nz/shop/Sprou...

Does it have to be in solution when you take it? Would sprinkling the sprout seeds over a meal work or does the chemistry have to happen in the solution?

Sorry you probably explain all that in your study but can you give a quick recap of the method here for those who want to try it but can’t commit 100% to not trying other things at the same time?

I probably haven’t got time to do a fully accurate method good enough for a trial but do you have a quick and easy 80% there type of shortcut for busy people that I could add to our daily routine?

Do the broccoli seeds have to be mature and dried before they will work? Presumably the actual vegetable head is packed with immature seeds. At what point do they become therapeutic?

wriga
wriga in reply to LAJ12345

Just catching up here. The vegetable is immature flower buds. They're a long way (weeks) from being seeds The heads will eventually break out into long stalks like mustard, then lots of white or yellow cruciform (4 petals in a cross) flowers on each stalk, then seed pods like beans grow on the stalks, then a dozen or so seeds grow in the pods. That's when the glucoraphanin is made.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to wriga

Thanks

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to wriga

Ok, I have my brocolli sprouts sitting in 60 degree water. I notice the water is turning pale green. Does the active compound go into solution or stay in the sprouts. i.e. should he drink the liquid as well as the sprouts?

**sorry see you have answered this below. Thanks

Holy crap what a bunch of nonsense. Take Avmacol and be done with it. The benefits out weigh the risks 100:1. I am Sunvox by the way. Look up my info to see I'm not an idiot.

I would have guessed you were Sunvox without being told. I agree you are not an idiot. You're also not a good candidate for the diplomatic corps. Before I rush over to Amazon, I'll wait for Albert to weigh in, but thanks for the lead.:)

PS. From their website.

"How Avmacol® and Avmacol® Extra Strength Work?

Our Sulforaphane Production System® supplies broccoli seed extract (glucoraphanin) and Myrosimax® (Active Myrosinase Enzyme) which helps promote sulforaphane production in your body. As depicted in the diagram below, when sulforaphane enters your cells it allows for a master regulator, known as NRF2, to enter the nucleus and bind to DNA. This helps increase the production of important Phase 2 detoxifying enzymes, promoting your body’s natural detoxification process, thereby supporting the elimination of potentially harmful metabolites.*"

rescuema
rescuema in reply to MBAnderson

Lol, at over .80 per Avmacol pill, it certainly will provide convenience as to the DIY sprout route that's much cheaper and more potent. When you combine the sprout's glucoraphanin + myrosinase and convert it to sulforaphane before ingestion, you maximize the benefit as to using the pill getting a fraction of the conversion, needing 3-4 pills (over $3 bucks a day) for 30mg sulforaphane.

MBAnderson
MBAnderson in reply to rescuema

I suspected as much. Thank you for this.

rescuema
rescuema in reply to MBAnderson

Once you get into the routine, the sprouting process is no big deal. Soaking seeds and rinsing twice a day (less than 30 seconds) for two days? Everyone has time for such a simple process using a mason jar/straining lid method. I personally enjoy the process and having control over what I consume.

Some people like to eat out and others love to cook (nonsense?). 😁

Buckholt
Buckholt in reply to MBAnderson

One of the foremost advocates of Sulforaphane is Dr Rhonda Patrick and she, herself takes Prostaphane supplement. This is an interesting 5 min video.

foundmyfitness.com/episodes...

wriga
wriga in reply to rescuema

Overnight there has been a lot of discussion and I note that rescue has answered in much the same way as I would gave done. Thanks Rescue, we are on the same wavelength.

Don't believe the hype that's written on the broccoli supplement labels. If the glucoraphanin is not converted to sulforaphane before you ingest it, the subsequent conversion yield is a lottery that depends on your gut bacteria profile. You can probably count on 10% and there are probably benefits to getting that 10% being converted in the colon to improve gut membranes via Nrf2 and gut neurons also.

But even tho the gut is our second brain, it's not going to solve the problem of damaged dopamine-making neurons in the brain. For that you need to get the sulforaphane straight into the blood and to the brain as directly as possible. That means converting the glucoraphanin to sulforaphane BEFORE you ingest it.

There are several ways to do this from seeds or sprouts, but the principles are the same.

You have to inactivate the epithiospecifier protein (ESP) that, if present, modifies the myrosinase enzyme so that it makes an inactive product rather that sulforaphane.

To be most effective this has to be done before the glucoraphanin comes into contact with myrosinase. ESP is heat sensitive, so I do this by heating dry grains to 60C before grinding them to a powder. You can do the same with sprouts before you liquidise them. Myrosinase is also heat sensitive and may be partly inactivated by this, although the upper limit for myrosinase is about 70C . So to be sure, you still have some, you can add a small amount of fresh myrosinase from another source and why not choose a type of myrosinase that is more robust and more effective than that in broccoli. There are 2 good sources of myrosinase, white mustard and daikon radish seeds. In my protocol, I add 4% white mustard seeds, because white mustard is easier to find than daikon. At the level of 4%, I don't think the antinutrient argument is a concern, but if so daikon radish seeds will get round it, and with daikon, 2% will be enough.

Next step: the extraction into water and conversion of glucoraphanin to sulforaphane. You need the water to be hot enough to hydrate and hydrolyse the seed powder (or liquidise sprouts) rapidly and to inactivate any remaining ESP at the same time. The upper limit is still 60C, but it can be lower if the previous step to inactivate ESP has been done properly. At this temperature, the seed powder breaks down to a suspension in about 2 minutes and the conversion to sulforaphane takes no more than 2 minutes, I give it 4 mins at 60C and it's done. Sulforaphane is not very soluble in water, so it will be present as a suspension. I filter it through a fine mesh tea strainer to get rid of the solid residues (seed husks mostly) . If you use a paper coffee filter, you may lose some sulforaphane.

Concerning dosage. In the trial we gat the best results at a remarkably low dosage. The range (in dry seed equivalent) was 0.6 to 1.2g per day. Calculated from the glucoraphanin content of the seeds, assuming a conversion yield of 70%, we get about 15 - 25 micro mol of sulforaphane .

The mol mass of sulforaphane is 177g/mol, so this adds up to about 3 to 5 mg of sulforaphane per day. I can only conclude that the delivery process makes all the difference. By this I mean that 3 to 5mg delivered directly to the blood as sulforaphane in a single dose via the upper digestive system appears to give a better result than ten times more delivered as glucoraphanin to the gut bacteria.

All this needs to be confirmed by more precise measurements which should also include chemical analysis and blood and urine tests.

I hope this answers a few questions.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to wriga

Do you know what the equivalent amount of fresh broccoli would be to achieve the same results? Say if you cut off all stalk and just used the flowery bit? Or does it have to go to seed to work?

wriga
wriga in reply to LAJ12345

Hi LAJ,

I did calculate this many months back and it's a lot of broccoli heads. I'm guessing now at between 200 and 300g. BUT that's in the form of unconverted glucoraphanin. To convert it to sulforaphane you would need to cook and liquidise it at 60C. Cooking at 100C destroys the enzyme. Eating it raw or cooked means that most of the glucoraphanin would be metabolized by gut bacteria with a low yield.

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to wriga

Did you include the stalk or just the floret tips?

LAJ12345
LAJ12345 in reply to wriga

So are you just grinding the unsprouted seeds? Sorry to ask so many questions. You may have answered this somewhere else.

Mimer
Mimer in reply to wriga

Is there anything in the process you could do in batches? Like do a batch of heated grains and grind to pulver? How long is it possible to store?

Or is it even possible store hydrated suspension for e.g. the coming week or so?

B.t.w. how do you grind it?

Despe
Despe in reply to CardiCorgi

Joe from NY? :)

Everything OK Joe? Long time no see!

Despe
Despe in reply to CardiCorgi

amazon.com/BrocElite-Sulfor...

This is one of the supplements I got, the other one is amazon.com/Designs-Health-B...

GioCas
GioCas in reply to CardiCorgi

Un poco si :-)

Albert,

You never seize to amaze me, your determination and dedication to your cause, ameliorating PD symptoms, are unparalleled.

You have the expertise and time (?) for your scientific research/trial. For me, time is a luxury I can't afford. Like Joe, I have bought a supplement and hope for the best.

Did you reach out to Dr. Mischley?

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