I have a question about marathon training! It's been in the back of my mind for a while but a comment from PaulS83 today has prompted me to voice it here (rather than have just leave it niggling away in my head)!
I am tentatively training to run marathon distance (having run walked a marathon just once), but I find once I up my mileage, I really need to take a couple of days off between runs (I have been very injury prone), which puts me at just 2 or 3 runs per week. That's successfully got me through several HMs.
Talking about long distance training, Paul made the comment that 'When the weekly mileage creeps up, trying to condense it into 3 runs will be far more onerous for the body. Most marathon training plans are 5 run days a week...'
When I looked at marathon plans, they almost all seemed to have a minimum of 4 run days a week, and most were 5 or 6.
So, for my latest training plan, I took the NRC marathon plan, picked four runs from each week (long, speed and the longest two recovery runs), but scheduled them to be every three days (so an NRC 'week' effectively takes me 12 days not 7). Am I making sense?
Of course, what that doesn't do, is give me as high a weekly run mileage as it would be if I followed the NRC plan properly. Or any other plan come to that! This has niggled at the back of my mind as being a potential problem, but I've been ignoring it! I do walk a lot in between runs, and once the weather is better I will cycle too, so my overall mileage is reasonable, just not the run mileage.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Especially any HUers who have run a marathon already? Do you think my approach is doomed to failure? I could consider switching to say the Hal Higdon Marathon3 plan halhigdon.com/training-prog... which is just three days a week (and not homemade)...
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I have been listening to the Marathon Talk podcast Linda, and on there Martin Yelling says 3 is the minimum. That aligns with the beginner plan I had for London which was only 3. I had 4 in my Improvers plan for Amsterdam. Generally speaking, one run should be a long run and one is a speed session.
I’m guessing you probably know this but Marathon training is usually in 4 blocks of 4 weeks with each block representing a different stage, so block one would be building a base and you’ll gradually build up.
Hope this helps. The Marathon Talk podcast is really good btw!
Thanks TC. MY is in good company - lots of folk say 3 is the minimum. I read aomething a couple of weeks ago suggesting the four phases was less common in newer plans. That's the trouble with reading/listening, there's enough different opinions to confuse me.A marathon podcast? That sounds very serious, and with a disposition like mine might send me down more rabbit holes, with more gremlins for company, than I could handle ... 🤔😱🙈 ... or maybe not 😀
I can't help I'm afraid but to answer your question you are 100% making sense and I am quite interested to hear the advice (but I am not planning to run a marathon!) as I find the approach an interesting one.
You make perfect sense. Ive now ran 2 full marathons. When I started training for the first one I tried an 18 week intermediate plan that involved running sessions 4 times a week. But it was too much for my body, so after 2 weeks of struggling I dropped down to a 16 week beginners plan from London Marathon. This was 3 runs a week, so much more achievable to someone not able to manage 4 or more. I successfully completed the Edinburgh run in my target time, so all good. The second one a ran was last year in Yorkshire and I opted this time for the improvers plan also provided by London Marathon. It was running 4 times a week, so plenty of rest days included. By then I was used to the extra running so felt the extra day at that point was doable. Of course no matter what the plan I always make sure it is flexible enough so I can make adjustments along the way. So occasionally I swap sessions around or drop a session if I am struggling physically, or my family's patience is running thin Though I always make sure there is some speed work and protect the long run as the backbone to the plan. One thing I noticed last time was that if I was opting to drop hill work ir was maybe more often than I should have, which I regretted on the day when even slight inclines felt like I was facing Ben Nevis. I'm sure that whatever approach you settle for will be worth it. Good luck with your training.
Thanks for this RD. That's just like Tailchaser - 2 marathons, LM beginners then improvers. I looked at the LM plan but it seemed a bit 'dry'; I picked NRC simply for the inbuilt variety (speed intervals, tempo runs, hill work, etc) and the lack of decisions required (just pick up the relevant guided run and get out the door).
I'll carry on for now, but see if I can make it 3 runs a week, at least some weeks! I have no set finish time in mind - other than faster than my one and only previous run/walk marathon!
There's a balance there. A marathon is a long way, so there's a critical level of mileage that the body needs to be suitably conditioned. The training not only builds endurance in the cardiovascular system and relevant muscle groups, but also the tendons, ligaments, bones, joints, metabolism. And brain. Mental endurance is half the battle.
Training plans are typically finish-time focussed, and intermediate plan will sell itself to get you round in a time, but I don't think that should be at the forefront of goals or motivation. It plays a part, but not the absolute.
In my opinion, marathons aren't the bit between the start and finish lines, they're a whole life-journey right from that first training run, over all the lumps and bumps, highs and lows that culminates in a look back over your shoulder and a utterance of, "See? That's what you're capable of."
The journey is greater than the destination, so if 4 or 5 runs a week is equivalent to torture, then don't do them. If your goal is to do the distance, and not hate it, then supplement the running with low-impact exercise like swimming or cycling with strength and flex.
You're not going to run a sub-3:30 though, but who cares about that?
Thanks for this - and for your comment that prompted me to ask the question in the first place 😊My previous marathon was a last minute decision, with 5 weeks to train from HM to FM distance, hence the run/walk decision. I suffered niggles for ages after that, so this time I'd like to train properly. But I don't want prolonged training at higher mileage to cause an overuse injury (already had more than my fair share). It's finding that right balance that's tricky!
Haha. Sub 3.30? A goal of sub 5:23 is where I'm at 😎 (though if I'm totally honest, creeping under the 5h mark would mean I'd never have to do another 🙃).
That's a good point about the journey though - so much more time spent getting there. I'd love to run 3, 4 or 5 days a week. I even have the time for it now! But historically higher milege, for a sustained period of time, has resulted in injury so I try to be 'sensible'.
If I'm honest, a better focus on stretching and strength work would go a long way towards mitigating against my tendency to injury. I am my own worst enemy. Not that I'm alone in that regard 🙄
As well as strength and flex, make sure you look after your nutrition too, particularly after sessions (intervals, hill repeats, etc.) and long runs. This will have a profound effect on your recovery speed. If you want to explore supplements, I highly recommend SIS Rego.
Don't let those legs seize up though, even day-after walks round the block will be beneficial to recovery. All time-on-feet counts!
I've just had a nose at the plan you linked. Personally, I think it looks very challenging in spots.
The transition of week 16 into 17 looks tough as written, and highlights the original point of condensing the mileage into 3 runs. If you were to do a HM as an event on Sunday, a Tuesday 10-miler will be a sore one!
3x 20-mile runs for this level of plan is a lot. I'd have expected to see 2 or even 1. It also hits (approx.) peak mileage Week 17/24, which strikes me as early, only to then yo-yo between peak and recovery.
Several weeks also seem back to front. Week 21 is a lot of miles for 3 runs, and has a significant tempo effort, a rest day, and then straight into a 20-miler. I'd expect to see some cross-training or recovery run between these efforts!
I've got some other comments, but don't want to go too far with them.
The message isn't not to follow plan, but it may need a bit of tailoring to suit your individual needs.
From how you've described it, I'd say this link is a far better and more structured plan. Don't be put off by the needless complication in some of the run descriptions, like "to be run at 'you're 10 minutes from home and desperately need a wee' pace".
Thanks for digging this out. So much food for thought! Three days a week would get a cautious tick. It's a different approach to my current plan; pick your pace and then run timed sessions. My plan is based on time for recovery runs, but always distance for long runs. Having said that, I do usually have a target pace in mind so I suppose it's not so different! I think I'm going to go back to my NRC plan: I'll work back from marathon day, trying to put three runs in per week. I'll stick with the 'one long, one speed and two recovery' selection from each NRC week, but still spread those four runs over 9 or 10 days rather than 7. In other words, 7 NRC weeks will take me 9 or 10 calendar weeks. I will compare weekly mileage to the RW plan and see if it falls a long way short, with a view to extending the recovery runs if my body is behaving.
I'm about to go away travelling around NZ for a month, so the next few weeks are going to need to be somewhat creative and flexible anyway!!! 🤷♀️
Getting to the start line in one piece has to be the priority, making sure I believe I'm ready has to be a close second. Other than that it's off and back to what I know 😀
I am definitely more comfortable with my 'stretched' NRC plan than the HH marathon 3 one. My current thinking is 'if all that mileage means injury before the start line, then where is the point?'
Luckily walking is easy for me - I do lots of it; except when the weather is better in which case I tend to cycle.Unfortunately I didn't like Rego when I tried it. After a hard run a lot of things make me nauseous, but I do try to replenish salts and protein and liquids as soon as I get back. Day to day nutrition could do wit improvement though - again, own worst enemy 🙈
You make perfect sense Linda. When I downloaded a marathon plan two years ago (before my series of injuries 🙄) it was the Hal Higdon one because it was three runs a week. I know my body couldn't cope with four. I have used the Hal Higdon HM3 plan often and rate it highly, so I reckoned it would be a good transition for me. I’ve yet to find out if the FM plan would work for me so I’ll be looking at your training with interest!
For the 3 days running I think the 2 days of cross training are critical especially for those of us who are more injury-prone. Also the way the runs are scheduled on the plans there is a two day rest after the long run. Admittedly one day is a cross training day but it’s still a rest from running.
How does the total weekly mileage in your current plan compare with the HH plan? Is there a big difference?
Whatever you decide to do, it’ll be the right decision for you. Good luck 🍀 We know you will do it 💪
I've neevr used HH plans, but what I read for the M3 plan did seem to make sense. I think I may continue the NRC plan, but try to do it with three runs a week (keeping an ear out for niggles). But I will also compare the weekly mileage with the HH plan too, that'sa good idea. For now my instinct still says to go cautiously with the training; if I don't make it to the start line then the benefit of higher weekly mileage won't be of much help 😍
Then the weather needs to feel free to improve 😍😍😍 I'm far too nesh to be testing my super gloves in these temps 😱We do have enough inclines here though for me to hit zone 2 on the bike ...
l went with Hal Higdon for both marathon (relatively ok) and ultra (gruelling at times), both 5 runs per week. Marathon training affects us differently and there are other factors to take into account as well - hydration, rest, diet, stretching, gear, supplements.
There is no laid back way about this. It takes planning, and can easily dominate your life. I’d say, go through marathon plans, and have a good think.
I was really good at running HMs every Sunday before l started marathons and very studious about the whole process but two of my marathon mates have entirely different approaches. One runs every day and when he needs to run 42k he simply goes and runs it and another, 62, runs it in 3:30hr with very little long distance training apart from one longish weekly run and some short runs/sprints chucked in. Both are really fit.
Very best of luck with anything that you decide (and keep flexible by stretching 😉)!
Well, I'm not really fit 🙃 Losing some of my 'winter weight' would help for starters 🙄Surely you didn't just mention stretching? Oh. Yes, you did! You went there!!! Even as I wrote the post the voices in my head were shouting ... injury prone you say? what about ignoring stretches? what about refusing to do strength work?
I know that I am my own worst enemy. What I don't know is how to motivate myself to do something about that. Even when the logic is so clear, even to me.
Motivation is the absolute key and the bridge to wherever you want to go. Only you can motivate yourself and in this case in order to reach the target there will be a lot of ‘fun’ times but the end reward is the one that really counts. However, you will need discipline to get through it, and l love how Mike Tyson defined it:
‘Discipline is doing what you hate to do but doing it like you love it.’ 👍😉
That's an interesting point. I have always assumed that 4 or 5 runs a week will increase impact and reduce repair time, and therefore be detrimental for me Maybe that's the wrong way of looking at it.
I'm lucky enough that I do have the time and the inclination for 4 or 5 runs a week 😊
I’m still trying to work out my plan. Hansons just finish plan fits with my six runs a week but it peaks at 47 miles 😱
I’m comfortable at a base of 30 miles now & I’ve run 40miles but I don’t want to get injured. An ultra running friend has offered to write me a plan so I’m going to pick his brains. Decisions decisions with this marathon training lark. Trying not to over think it 🤣
Well, I know, in my current state, there’s no way I could ramp up to 4 runs a week, my body wouldn’t take that much high impact……I can do the marathon distance, (we know about that 😉) and I’ve done so on 2-3 runs a week
What I have learned is, if I do want to get there, and be more comfortable - let’s face it, I’m never going to be at the front……😂……it would take me a lot longer than these 16 week or whatever plans…..and that’s just fine…so your plan sounds like my kind of thinking…..
Completely agree with PaulS83
At the moment I’m mulling over a HM that I have a place for in June….just going to slowly build my distance, I do a fair bit of other things too, cross training, Pilates, I like to feel my whole body is strong, not just the running mechanism
So for me, the mantra of slow, and more slow rings true and I view any of these ‘plans’ as guides and would adjust them to me…..with whatever my goal is in mind….
My elongated plan is across 24 weeks - definitely slow - and I've just reached the HM mark for the long run. Although I've 'done' the marathon distance once, as you know I didn't train properly and walked a fair bit of it too. Speed is definitely not my goal; mostly running, and finishing, uninjured is my goal. Oh, and getting rid of any itch to do another one 😀Enjoy training for the June HM. That will be a great motivator and focus for your winter/spring runs 😊
Where do I find that Miss W? Is it one of the guided runs in the app, or somewhere else? I'm lucky that my schedule is pretty flexible - it's my body that doesn't play ball!!! I guess those long runs are all there, regardless of how long I take to get through the plan.
It’s when you first unfurl a Plan on the NRC app. Up pops CB with an introductory blah blah. You get a pep talk every time you move on to the next week of the plan - but it’s not always by Coach B - it could be any one of the coaches 🙂
I set off this morning to get to the start of the hill intervals. It took me about 20 mins of slow jogging to get there. I felt dead sluggish and was struggling against a strong wind I feared my intervals would be rubbish.
Once I got Coach Blu in my ear’oles I felt much better 😀 I did em! Bish bash bosh 🏃♀️😀 I surprised myself!
I started the slow jog home but managed a bit of a downhill dash at the end.
We can’t know how things will pan out til we get going 😀
Yep there’s going to be a longer run each week to get you to your chosen planned distance. You know it’s always going to be there, writ large on the plan 😀🏃♀️💪🫖
If you want to run a marathon for enjoyment and experience and not care about time then do what you feel is right for you.
Keeping the heartrate down and running within zone 2 is my main concentration when training. It takes time and patience and I don't always have that...
I followed HH plan on the app for 2 marathons last year and another novice one on another forum over here in Ireland. Speed was the main emphasis, it had to be as slow as possible. Once you think you are running slow, run even slower.
The long runs are the important ones as it builds up the endurance, so this one should not be skipped. The longest run I did was 30k, 4 weeks before the marathons. I also did no hill work or speed sessions. My focus was to finish and not get a PB.
Another important factor is working with nutrition and diet both on and off training to get your fueling right.
The most important thing is that you should listen to your body (especially during the long runs) and don't ignore it.
Thanks for this input FC. I tend to use the NRC guided runs because the coaches constantly tell you to run easy; that rhetoric helps drown out the voices in m y head that are calculating pace and distance and telling me there's no way I can make my goal 🙈 Zone 2 though, that would take a level of patience I am not sure I possess ...
Nutrition off training is something I could definitely benefit from, but falls into much the same camp as stretching and strength workouts as far as my level of motivation is concerned. Note to self; must try harder! 😎
I think these plans are written for 20 something runners, not is "more seasoned" runners. It's your plan and you have to make it work for you. It sounds like you already have a very good idea what you're up for, and frankly doing anything else will just make you miserable. I've been following the NRC HM plan, I've been plodding away at it since about March last year, been through it twice. I run every other day, and pick a run for whatever week I'm on and don't worry how long it takes to finish the plan. Of course, that wouldn't work if you've signed up for, say, a 20 week plan and your race is in 20 weeks...
That's an interesting point CG2. There is also a Hal Higdon marathon plan for seniors - it is altogether different!
I still have 15 weeks of plan left, having made it to HM distance over the first 9 weeks of the plan. Having said that, I am on '9 weeks to go' of the NRC plan - it's just they are going to take me longer because I have 12 day weeks (I know that maths doesn't quite work - I'm a little ahead of myself, but about to go away for a month so imagine I will be using up that contingency!).
Enjoy your HM plan. Will you use it to run an event?
Yes, I'm running the Cambridge HM in March. I too have something like 10 day weeks, I run every other day, so it takes more than a week to get them all in.
I think you've planned it all really well, better to have a bit of time left at the end than to panic you haven't done enough. I've done all but the very long runs on my plan, got scuppered by the weather a couple of times, (Cross winds on a very narrow muddy towpath made me fear getting blown into the river, so prudence prevailed and I scrubbed that one!) I do intend to go the distance in a week or two from now, I'd like to know I'm up for it, but I'll be having a long taper.
Its tricky Linda, I think if you are running to finish but not for a lofty time goal then 3 runs per week could work. 4 per week would be better with one of them being a long easy run. You likely already know this but using the 80/20 rule, 80%of the weekly running should be easy with 20% harder intervals or hills. Also factoring in cutback easy weeks every 3-4 weeks helps recovery and injury prevention. For cutbacks I skip the intervals and dial back the long runs to 15k or so. For me the biggest lessons last year were around nutrition. Especially increasing sodium intake. And of course the long runs. Getting to +30k in your training at least a couple of times will help you get a sense of how it feels. It really begins at +30k, That’s when the wheels fall off for most people. Fuelling needs to be topped up throughout in order to feel good at 32k and beyond. The more you can adjust to that zone the better.
Lofty goal? Nope, not I. Well, no loftier than finishing in one piece, feeling I mostly ran it. I am doing all the long runs in the plan, though averaging one every 12 days rather than one a week - I'm scared to do them any more frequently, especially now they're 21k+, for fear of injury stopping play. There are definitely cutback weeks built in to the NRC plan too. I think I did one 32k run/walk last time and that helped in many ways. This plan has just one run over 32k (I have written 32-35k on my plan - the NRC plan suggested 29-35k).
I do remember feeling really wobbly in the latter part of my previous attempt, and wondered if that was going to derail me. I just caught it with mini cheddars (I'd had enough sugar!) and more to drink, but it was a scary moment for sure. I will try to be more mindful during training - if I make it that far through the plan 🤞
Sounds like the plan has the components you need. And you may find yourself adjusting some things along the way too. I totally get the injury fear. Lots of easy miles seem to strengthen against injury. When I’ve been injured it’s almost always from pushing too hard when I should have gone easy. 🙂 No worries. You’ve got this!
I did a yoga sesh today and the guy said something which resonated with yours truly. To the effect that we see progress in sport in terms of speed of movement when we could spend at least as much time on “stillness”. We’d spend less time being injured if we did, or words to that effect 👌🙂
It was the perfect antidote to my speed intervals yesterday. You don’t realise how stiff you are 😩
Yes, you zone out, then come to some way further down the line and wonder how long your reverie lasted. It happens more so during warm weather when there’s less urgency to get home.
I ran myself into a bog once by straying off the trail when in a trance. It was an ex coal tip and the mud was really black 😑
A hypnotic tune I can easily zone out to is “Back on the Road Again” by Canned Heat 😀🎶🎵
just make sure you tote enough food to sustain you throughout For the 32k run I take Tailwind drink plus two bags of Hula Hoops, some Haribo’s, some of my homemade energy bars, and a gel for if I seriously start to flag near the end
I might not eat everything but it’s there if I need it 🙂👍
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Though I always make sure there is some speed work and protect the long run as the backbone to the plan. One thing I noticed last time was that if I was opting to drop hill work ir was maybe more often than I should have, which I regretted on the day when even slight inclines felt like I was facing Ben Nevis. I'm sure that whatever approach you settle for will be worth it. Good luck with your training. 
Is this a challenge too far??????
Copenhagen 2017 Plan and status
Is this marathon training plan ok? :)
