Re: MEAL: J Kellogg "Kelly" Parsons... - Fight Prostate Ca...

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Re: MEAL

pjoshea13 profile image
13 Replies

J Kellogg "Kelly" Parsons initiated the MEAL intervention trial a little before 2008 & wrote the (final)?  paper in 2020.  That suggests a big commitment & I doubt that he would have become involved unless he really believed that vegetables must make a difference to PCa outcome.  After all, it's "common sense"!  LOL

The target of MEAL was "increased intakes of vegetables (particularly cruciferous vegetables and tomato products), whole grains, and beans/legumes.", not fruit.  Never mind that the tomato is a fruit.

In his interview with Alicia Morgans [1], I started out feeling sorry for the guy - after all, the men in the intervention saw no advantage.  Kelly, however, felt that the study was successful, since they were able to change behavior & get men to eat more vegetable.  The design was good even if the concept was flawed.  A nice spin; I admired his resilience. 

My conclusion was that the study probably could not have been much better designed, and that you simply cannot get most men to eat a lot of veg, let alone the "15+ vegetable-fruits servings per day" that smurtaw does.

I am no doubt much older & less active, but I can only handle two meals of rather modest proportions each day & I never feel the need to snack.  Even if I became a vegan, 15 servings would be too much for me, although perhaps I might get some credit for 5 concentrated servings of fruit from red wine.

I have never understood why "experts" sometimes advise getting xservings of "fruits & vegetables".  Fruits tend to have a poor nutrients:sugars ratio, whereas non-starchy vegetables have an excellent nutrients:calories ratio.  They are not interchangeable & I'm glad that MEAL concentrated on vegetables.

The U.S. food pyramid has starchy carbs on the bottom & fat at the top.  Quite different from the Mediterranean diet, which is 40% fat.

Many, many years ago, I went to see Dr. Joel Fuhrman, who had a practice nearby when I lived in NJ.  He later became well-known as a diet guru. The base of his pyramid consists of nutrient-rich foods - not the grains, etc of the U.S., which he relegates to the second tier  Unfortunately, the U.S. pyramid seems to be decided by lobbyists for the food industry & tends to reflect what it actually produces.  And no one in DC wants to disturb the status quo in their home state.

Fuhrman makes more sense to me, though his is not a 40% fat diet,

Ancel Keys crusade against animal saturated fat somehow morphed into the "Fat-Free" "Lo Fat" world we live in.  I doubt that "Kelly"'s methods would get men to eat more fat.

Years ago, tired of reading "not of it, but with it", I wondered what most men with PCa did die of.  Turned out to be cardiovascular disease.  It took me a while to sign on to the adage "if it's good for the heart, it's good for the prostate", but I think it's true.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I view PCa as a potential side effect of the Metabolic Syndrome, and that provides the connection to CVD.

The only dietary intervention study with CVD credibility is the PREDIMED study.  619 PubMed hits & still going strong.

Perhap the best thing one can do is to move to the "Mediterranean" for dietary authenticity - not to mention the vitamin D.  Ancey Keys spent the last 35 years of his life in Minnelea, his villa in the seaside village of Pioppi, in the Cilento region on the southwest coast of Italy.  He died age 100.

-Patrick

[1]  urotoday.com/video-lectures...

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softwaremom00 profile image
softwaremom00

I agree that it is hard to get men, even women, to eat 15 servings of vegetables. I think juicing is the easiest way. But some folks are opposed to that as well. I can get my better half to drink some of the Dr. Schulzes Super Food powders every day, and he loves fruit. Sometimes I can sneak some spinach into a fruit smoothie. Thanks for the post.

cigafred profile image
cigafred

May you outlive Keys.

cesces profile image
cesces

Something that I keep wondering about, is anti oxidants.

If you have cancer, maybe they aren't so great. Maybe they protect prostate cancer cells from the immune system's attempts to kill them.

cujoe profile image
cujoe

Patrick,

IMO, an excellent commentary on the subject of diet and health. Over time, I have come to see the solid evidence for your long-held view on the importance of insulin control and the avoidance of metabolic syndrome for both our general health and PCa.

Your "if it's good for the heart, it's good for the prostate" adage might be combined with Dr. Lustig's "protect the liver and feed the gut" for a solid and easy-to-remember guide to good overall health. One that would reduce risk for PCa and extend life for those that already have it - so we can die more gracefully "with it" rather than "from it".

You have obviously been way ahead of the game in regards to controlling your PCa and navigating the dietary maze that gets thrown at us daily. A true n=1 of extraordinary distinction.

Enjoy the mountain version of this week's springtime-in-winter weather . Ciao - K9

cashlessclay profile image
cashlessclay in reply tocujoe

"Insulin control" of breakfast is most important. My everyday breakfast is steel cut oatmeal, lots of walnuts and 5-7 raspberries. This has worked quite well (with a plant based, whole foods diet) in controlling cancer. If I presoak the oatmeal, the diet doesn't work at all. If I cook the oatmeal with too much water the diet stops working. If I have the oatmeal with almond milk, the diet effectiveness decreases with increased milk, and doesn't work at all with 6 oz or more almond milk. Too much fruit, diet stops working and, to my great surprise, remove all fruit, diet stops working. So there you are, steel cut oatmeal, cooked dry, no milk added, lots of walnuts and 5-7 raspberries works consistently.

cigafred profile image
cigafred in reply tocashlessclay

Haven't seen you for awhile, good to hear from you again.

cashlessclay profile image
cashlessclay in reply tocigafred

Thanks cigafred. What got me going was the MEAL study being called "Level 1 evidence". Evidence of what? Did they really believe that eating more vegetables would move the needle?

cujoe profile image
cujoe in reply tocashlessclay

Cashless - All interesting observations. When you say you cook your oatmeal "dry", I assume you mean with minimal vs copious H20?

cashlessclay profile image
cashlessclay in reply tocujoe

Yes, minimal water. I also avoid any liquid intake 1/2 hour prior to the oatmeal and 1 hour after I'm finished. It's a small bowl, using 1/4 cup oatmeal and 1/3 cup of water.

cujoe profile image
cujoe in reply tocashlessclay

I eat oatmeal (rolled organic) regularly, but your portion sounds like a pauper-sized one to even skinny ol' me.

Magnus1964 profile image
Magnus1964

There may indeed be some vegetables that are more beneficial than others but as I have tried to point out in other threads on this forum, eating more vegetables does not cure cancer or improve your odds of not getting cancer. The benefits of eating vegetables and not eating meats is that you are not consuming the hormones and other chemicals that are fed to the animals. Those hormones can not be good for a hormone fed cancer. The idea that eating MORE vegetables somehow improves cancer is just a wrong approach.

Magnus

cujoe profile image
cujoe in reply toMagnus1964

Magnus - No doubt the chemicals, pesticides, antibiotics, and growth hormones that find their way into out foods are bad for us. And I don't know anyone personally who thinks any sort of dietary change is going to cure our cancers. However, changes to diet and lifestyle early in life might well have prevented a larger percentage of them from developing.

Eating real, unprocessed food surely is one way to improve our health. Organic (non-GMO) products also reduce our exposure to environmental chemicals and toxins. However, with all due respects, if you are trying to increase your fiber intake to the 34 gram RDA for adult male, I'd argue you can't get there without LOTS of vegetables - and a low fiber diet is one destined for a dysbiosis of the gut microbiome. As, Lustig says, "Protect the liver and feed the gut".

Eat Well to Be/Stay Well - Ciao - K9

j-o-h-n profile image
j-o-h-n

I saw this: “If a tomato is a fruit, does that make ketchup a smoothie?”.............

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 02/24/2023 7:28 PM EST

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