mucuna pruriens for people without Parkinson’s?

[LAJ12345]

what are peoples thoughts on taking mucuna if you don’t have Parkinson’s. Is it likely to adversely affect the brain?

My son who is 20 has difficulty with concentration, mood, anxiety and motivation and often displays ADHD symptoms. For the last 2 years at school he mucked about and didn’t finish, worked lots of part time manual jobs which he kept quitting. He enrolled in polytechnic classes and stopped attending halfway through. He had gone flatting and was in a bad state, not eating, sleeping all day. Partying and binge drinking, taking drugs and vaping. At the end of last year he came back home to live.

This year he has finally come around and is eating properly, stopped the drug and alcohol abuse. I put him on Hardys DEN and rhodiola rosea and it helped his mood and energy levels and he has stated exercising again. He is enrolled at uni and has just passed the first semester doing psychology with A grades.

He has however still suffered with motivation and procrastination which after watching a video by dr Andrew Huberman I put down to low dopamine.

Question would a small amount of mucuna powder be a bad thing ie could it be addictive and make him worse over time or would its benefits outway the negatives?

I do worry he has a lot of the same behaviours as his Dad had from years ago so I am concerned about that.

[CaseyInsights]

Do ensure he stays on Hardys DEN and rhodiola rosea.

I would suggest DopaBoost along with ‘BulletProof Cocoa’ or BulletProof Coffee if you prefer. I have used this combo to keep me going on a post retirement project. Still use it from time to time - did so just yesterday.

And I don’t have Parkinson’s🌹

Here is a link to Dopa Boost -

amazon.com/designs-health-D...

Here a link to BulletProof Coffee

bulletproof.com/recipes/bul...

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

thanks! I will look into it.

I have an organic mucuna from Pure herbs that my husband has 1/2 tsp each morning . I’m not sure how strong it is. I put about 1/8 tsp in my porridge yesterday to see if it had any effect and I did feel much more energetic and stronger and not so tired, but it made me a bit wired so I couldn’t sleep at night. I think it must be pretty strong.

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

Well, DopaBoost is pretty strong - 100mg of L-Dopa plus precursor to L-Dopa, L tyrosine at 375mg in one capsule.

However, never had sleep problems 💥

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

Do you find it is addictive and you need to increase the dose? Or struggle without it if you don’t take it. I’m worried that being so young if he starts on something he will have to take it for along time. Having said that if it helps him achieve in life and the alternative is dropping out it might be the better of two evils.

Adhd kids they give supplements to boost dopamine but not levodopa itself. I wonder why that is.

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

Had no problems with addiction. I use it when I know I would have a busy day or days.

You will know if you are taking too much as it will keep you awake. Found this out testing it on myself before I put my spouse on it.

Will not worry too much about addiction. Like any supplement you need to rotate off of it occasionally.

I would suggest one capsule every other day to start.

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

do you take the 2 capsules per day or just 1/2 dose?

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

One capsule - Half dose. My spouse, who has Parkinson’s take one capsule at midday. As part of her regular regime.

This is paired with one and one half Sinemet in the morning and a similar dose in the evening (25/100)

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

I wonder if the coffee needs the ghee. He won’t eat butter or cream. I have coconut oil. Would that work? I do often use ghee when cooking curry.

The Hardys already has 3x20mg b6 . Is another 5 too much?

He also is having fish oil capsules, and takes astragalus and ashwaghanda with breaks. His mood has definitely improved massively but I’m not sure how long you should take these things.

He did need something to kick start him as he was in a bad way and contemplating suicide last year and his course adviser emailed to tell me he had confided in a classmate who had reported to him. So he has come a long way. He has seen a doctor last year and they put him on a waiting list to see an adhd specialist 8 months ago and we still haven’t heard back. Now he says on the supplements he is able to focus better and doesn’t think he has adhd at all. But he still has tendencies in my opinion.

I certainly don’t want him put on SSRIs for depression as I fear he will react the same way as his dad which is to get manic and suicidal.

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

I have modified that recipe to my liking. I use butter instead of ghee, and it is acceptable to my wife who does not eat butter.

Coconut oil is fine, but takes over my coffee/cocoa combo. And it is not the same as MCT oil.

MCT oil emphasize the short chain end - C8 and C10 -carbon chains which is readily absorbed and ready to fuel body and brain. I stick with a formula that keeps some of C12 chain, which is a anti-microbial force

See here for good explanation

naturalforce.com/blogs/nutr...

The B6 is quite small just enough so the precursor is ignited.

And you know well enough to keep clear of SSRI’s, that is ‘until hell freezes over’ 🤯

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

ok thanks very much.

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

Cool!

And here is my MCT choice

amazon.com/gp/product/B00XM...

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

thanks!

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

interestingly hubby takes those dopaboost ingredients -tyrosine and green tea in Restore gold, citrus bioflavonoids, b6 in Hardys, mucuna pruriens! He takes fish oil, krill oil, hemp seed oil too. Not mct though. He is doing really well at the moment. He has turned into the energy bunny! Organising trips, outings, playing bridge most days at the club, doing dishes, folding washing….

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

how much of the mct oil do you use in your coffee. This recipe has a large range.

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

I use one tablespoon. Too much and you will get complaints of ‘oily tea’. (We call all hot beverages ‘tea’, here in T&T 🤷🏽‍♂️)

My emphasis is on enjoyable🌹

[Cagey84]

I’d do nothing without proper medical advice. You can’t know for certain that it’s low dopamine levels and as far as I know the studies on supplementing levodopa in “normal “ people haven’t been done.

[LAJ12345 in reply to Cagey84]

sorry I have absolutely no faith in medical advice. My husband would be dead via suicide if I followed what they said to do several times over. And I’m pretty sure the mirtazapine they prescribed for depression to counteract the suicidal effects of the SSRIs brought on Parkinson’s sooner than it would have otherwise too as it made him so apathetic and sleepy he wouldn’t move or get out of bed.

[kevowpd]

This is crazy. He's 20. You've described nothing that isn't common at 20, or at least nothing that suggests any kind of illness. And if he does have some condition of the basal ganglia (ADHD, PD, something else) then do you really want him taking parkinsons medication (don't kid yourself, a dose of mucuna sufficient to have an impact will be 'medication') in his 20s just so you can fix his motivation? Especially with the endless trials and tribulations you've experienced with your husband and his medication?

He does have a higher risk of PD later in life due to his dad having it, so i would do absolutely no tinkering with this neurochemistry in anyway whatsoever, unless you want him to have PD at 35 and not 60.

Appropriate incentives would probably fix his motivation. That and some growing up.

[LAJ12345 in reply to kevowpd]

good points. Thanks.

Incentives have no effect on him. Have tried that through much of his teens. That and reasoning, pointing out consequences. Lack of motivation means he can’t bring himself to do anything. Just like his dad. It is more than just teenage angst.

[CaseyInsights in reply to LAJ12345]

@kevowpd does raise some key issues. So do be careful. Maybe you can start with the BulletProof Coffee and see how it goes, rather than the double whammy this geezer suggest 💥

[LAJ12345 in reply to CaseyInsights]

yeah, maybe not the best idea. Adhd drugs increase dopamine so I wonder why they don’t use mucuna instead.

Today he is storming around again railing against having to do uni or find a job and moaning about his lack of freedom. Give me strength. My other 2 kids just got on and did it. (Older sister, younger brother)

[kevowpd in reply to LAJ12345]

That's challenging, but levodopa is not the answer. It could conceivably be neurotoxic, something raised on this forum from time to time. Normally when that happens i dismiss it, since the only people using it are doing so because they need to function. I.e they have no choice, so whether or not it is incrementally damaging the brain is academic. I.e like telling someone with cancer that radiotherapy is bad for them because of the radiation. Sure, but the alternative (death, in that case) mightn't be real good either.

But in someone with no overt PD symptoms and a possible increased predisposition to developing the disease, the risk that levodopa could potentially permanently alter brain chemistry is simply too great.

He'll likely grow out of it. His brain is still growing until ~25. He may not rise to the heights that you had hoped he would and may not match your other children in terms of lifetime achievements but that's ok.

As for ADHD drugs v mucuna, they work differently and on different parts of that part of the brain. It's more complex than 'more dopamine'.

[LAJ12345 in reply to kevowpd]

thanks

It’s frustrating because he is very intelligent. Missed most of 2 years of school then did stats and maths at uni first year and got A+ and B+ respectively catching it up (lost 10% in maths for not attending compulsory labs not through lack of understanding it.)

[CaseyInsights]

Sent you a lengthy private note on another option for your son. It’s off topic, thus the private note (Nutritional Lithium) 🌹

[pearlette]

Mucuna pruriens is availabe off the counter in India in herbal medicines retailers (not Ayurvedic dispensaries) in capsule form or an instant "coffee" drink as a male sexual stimulant as it has an androgenic action . I have no idea aboutthe formulation strength (labelled as 400 mg )

The usual caveat of impulse control, gambling etc would apply when using it . But these were marketed without information leaflets of any detail.

[LAJ12345]

yes we can get it from Indian food shops here too. Do people there use it a lot without Parkinson’s?

[pearlette in reply to LAJ12345]

I have no idea ! I saw it in a branch of a reputable retailer in Kerala when I was there. This was aound the time of my formal diagnosis.

I have not seen it in any Indian shops here in London.

[LAJ12345 in reply to pearlette]

it’s called kapikacchu in the Indian shop.

[pearlette in reply to LAJ12345]

Thank you. Thats interesting.

I have not come across the coffee form even in India (I know the name from reading about it) I saw a capsule form in a herbal products shop.

[kgold]

I would recommend the book The Mood Cure by Julia Ross. I was a literal mess back in the mid 2000s. Her books resonated with me and I wound up working with her and a nutritionist at her clinic. Not to be too dramatic, but this saved my life. Her primary therapy is using amino acids, although diet is also very important. To this day, I refer to her books to get dosing, etc. if I I feel the need. You might also check out Ben Lynch, the naturopath, who comes from the genetic angle. BTW, my husband is the one with PD.

[LAJ12345 in reply to kgold]

ok thanks. I will have a look for her book. We eat a really health diet for my husband and now my son is doing pyschology he is watching lots of videos on diet and micronutrients. One of his lecturers was Julia Rucklidge who did the clinical trials on Hardys den on adhd kids and on stressed people after the Canterbury earthquakes. He is watching a lot of Andrew Huberman too so he is trying hard to keep a healthy lifestyle now after a few years of chaos.

I have seen Ben Lynch before. He is very good.

I had my husbands genes done and it helped understand his drug reactions.

[Rebtar]

There is likely a link between early trauma and ADHD. All kinds of information if you use a search engine. Gabor Mate is one who goes deep with this. I have been like your son except when something REALLY interests me, then I hyper focus and go overboard, kind of like a dog doing zoomies?

I now have PD, my dad did also. But genes aren’t destiny and I wonder how much childhood and adult trauma messed with my dopamine expression?

Something to explore in your son’s situation…

[LAJ12345 in reply to Rebtar]

yes definitely. He has obsessive compulsive behaviour and fixates on things. Just like his dad. Can’t concentrate on things unless they interest him.

He had early trauma with the Canterbury earthquakes. We had 4 major knew in a year and 10,000 quakes over a 2 year period when he was 9-10. Then hubby got Parkinson’s, and we had covid. Quite stressful.

I read Gabor Mates book a few months ago and it was interesting.

[Rebtar in reply to LAJ12345]

if he’s willing to do trauma therapy, that might be helpful. Just make sure the person who does it knows what they’re doing.

[LAJ12345 in reply to Rebtar]

it’s very hard to get any kind of therapy here. The health system has been totally wrecked by covid and the government😢

[Rebtar in reply to LAJ12345]

yes, I’ve heard. It’s terrible.

[Rebtar]

just curious…I’ve noticed some of us use Hardy’s and swear by this brand. What’s different from other quality multis, like Pure Encapsulations?

[LAJ12345 in reply to Rebtar]

I don’t know that one. They might be just as good. I like Hardys as they have 20 years of clinical trials and they are made in Canada so I trust the brand. They are supposed to be the most trialled multivitamin in the world and they definitely had a noticeable effect on hubby within 3 days of taking them. He has the extra vitamers ones.

[Juliegrace]

I agree with kevowpd. I have wondered for years about normal people (non PD) using mucuna and how it would affect them. Especially because even small doses give me dyskinesia so I can’t imagine the damage it could do to normies.

[LAJ12345 in reply to Juliegrace]

yes I think you are right. It’s one thing if you are say 70- 80 something but if you are young it’s a lot of years to have to take something

[Juliegrace in reply to LAJ12345]

off topic, I just went to Hardy’s website but it is so hard to read their nutritional labels. I sent them an email telling them that.

[LAJ12345 in reply to Juliegrace]

did you look under supplement facts? You can expand that up as big as you like

[Fumaniron]

Perhaps consider a silent (Vipassana) retreat?

[LAJ12345 in reply to Fumaniron]

mmm he would be difficult to persuade.

[Fumaniron]

sometimes, the obstacle is the way…

[DreamRain]

I would advise extreme caution when considering the use of any neuroactive supplements or substances. The brain is highly complex, poorly understood, finely tuned and intricately controlled via a number of homeostatic mechanisms. Neurotransmitters (such as Dopamine) are found in numerous neural pathways. The action of these neurotransmitters is finely modulated and their actions homeostatically controlled by a number of complex feedback mechanisms that include the number of receptor sites, quantities of re-uptake inhibitors in the synapse, breakdown molecules in the synapse, threshold response levels etc. Furthermore the different neural pathways modulated by different neurotransmitters interact in complex ways with each other.

I would advise that you seek professional guidance from an expert medical professional in the field. The potential risks are in my view too great to experiment with neuroactive supplements independently and even more so in the case of a young person still subject to neural development and growth.

[LAJ12345 in reply to DreamRain]

yes, I agree in principle.

However doctors routinely hand out prescriptions for synthetic products even to kids as young as 7 for adhd and I don’t believe they understand any better what is going on from experience. There seems to be very little science behind what they give people, it’s based more on try this, see if it helps. Side effects? Here’s another drug. If that one doesn’t work try this one.

I’m not keen if subjecting him to that kind of experimentation after how my husband reacted to their drugs.

Mucuna is at least a bean that has been used by various cultures centuries but doctors wouldn’t even consider it.

Maybe broad/fava beans would be the thing as they have considerably less levodopa in them and were eaten often by my grandparents at least.