Protect The NHS: I do not really want... - British Heart Fou...

British Heart Foundation
17,110 members11,483 posts

Protect The NHS

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star

I do not really want to bring politics into it but what I just heard on the news has made me shudder! Apparently if a post Brexit world (if it comes about) we will be free to do deals with all these countries outside the EU. There have already been stories of the US wanting access to our food markets with food hygiene standards below the current ones in this country, e.g. chlorinated chicken. Apparently health services in the US are real money spinners. These people want access to our NHS. Considering the poor die in the US because the cost of essential medications cannot be covered you will appreciate why I shuddered!

82 Replies
oldestnewest

This has been in the media a lot lately, it is worrying.

I agree. If you live in the US and don't have medical cover you're in a difficult place. Even if you do have cover there's always the threat of cover being withdrawn.

There's loads of horror stories out there, one of the latest is about access to insulin for people with Type 1 diabetics, see link below

bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-can...

I've lived in the US and insurance is a nightmare with any pre-existent condition.

I read that BBC post story re insulin too, completely shocking.

I'm off!!

Yes, it is political scaremongering. Project fear has persisted up to and beyond the referendum.

The CBI continue to warn the public that leaving the EU will result in job losses in their expert opinion. In that respect I'm fairly certain they're right, given that that is the nature of change. There will also be more opportunities if the politicians do ever carry out the will of the democratic vote.

What people should think about is that all of these fears have materialised whilst within the umbrella of the EU, and have been worsened by the status quo being dragged, kicking and screaming, afraid of losing the finances they have invested, rather than even contemplate the potential opportunities for the rest of the country.

Speaking of a second referendum, here's two scenarios to consider when talking to our grandkids in the future "Luckily, by the time of the second referendum we had amassed enough newcomers to overturn the first democratic majority".

Or, what will happen if the discontentment with MPs not carrying out the will of the first referendum results in an even bigger majority second time around?

The media, favouring remain (because of their investment in the status quo as outlined above), don't even want to discuss those.

One final thought; if remainers refuse to abide by democracy, what makes them think that Brexiteers will be any more compliant having been denied their democratic rights?

I'm all for free speech but I think the concensus is that your post has no place on this forum.

And I defend your freedom to write that.

A vote where people were lied to by those who wanted to push a leave vote. Remember the whole 350 million a a week bit?

But we were also lied to by the Remain camp... all politicians lie! Truth is, no-one knows whether it will be a great opportunity or a great abyss until we actually step off that ledge...

Oh we do know. It's just that nobody listens to experts anymore in this pathetic 'fake news' Trump like era over here. Especially when 'certain parties' will make money out of it.

No, we don’t know - not even the experts, as they don’t have a crystal ball either! There will be disruption, of course, but the “other side” is unknown territory. I feel that we are strong enough as a country, as a people, to prosper outside of the EU, but it was never going to be an easy option...

*sigh* go and read up on it hon. They do know what will happen. Thats the point!

*sigh* Patronising much?

Try to stay civil, hon

Sorry I am staying civil.

Thank you.

My point is that the effects of Brexit are complex and interconnected. There is lots of speculation but even a best guess is still just that, a guess, no matter how good the expert is!

I happen to believe you're wrong, but thats leave it at that before my blood pressure goes through the roof, and as I've already been experencng a shortage of my EU approved meds I can well do with out that...

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Dakachetiri

I voted Leave on the limited (mis) information available but am now Remain. Whilst I am willing to accept the outcome of the Referendum the understanding was it was with a deal. The issues that have come to light since clearly show that "crashing" out would be severely damaging to the UK. Bizarrely in another "health" forum I have seen people willing to risk their health (medication issues) due a strange belief we will go back to the days of Heartbeat (sorry for pun) and have an empire again. I believe there are a number of issues with the EU but they are better fixed from within. The last thing I want is for the UK to become a new state in Trumpland!

I think we are stuck with the outcome, and how we each voted no longer matters.

Anyone who believes it will be anything other than a bumpy ride is deluding themselves, but I do believe we will survive, even prosper, if everyone pulls together to make it work.

I am sooooo tired of all the squabbling though; I just want us to get on with it now 🙄

We are not stuck with it. The government have the ability to cancel this nightmare any time they choose, right up until the very last moment, but as a few Tory individuals will benefit financially from it they won't.

If Brexit were completely cancelled, what would that say about democracy?

Well considering so many people were lied to in the original push for this disaster, and that more and more people are waking up to this fact and have changed their minds and want to reman I'd say It was fine.

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Silverfox2

A typical Parliament can run for a maximum of five years. Considering that over three years have passed since the referendum, there were irregularities in the campaigns and a lot more information had come to light another referendum would be appropriate. This should be on the STV system with the choices of Hard Brexit, With A Deal and Remain. Also the original was for leaving with a deal NOT crashing out!

Exactly.

Milkfairy
MilkfairyHeart Star

Oh Michael what have you started.

I will be giving this thread a miss as the replies may set my angina off!

Shoshov
Shoshov
in reply to Milkfairy

i’m with you milkfairy. ❤️

One of the best things about this forum is that, by and large, whatever our personal convictions, we all take a deep breath and don't try to score cheap political points.

I hope this thread won't spoil that singular track record!

Here here! Let’s not start a political argument.

GillMac1
GillMac1
in reply to Milkfairy

Am definitely not here for political arguments, being a Scot we have enough of our own going on thank you - and appropriate forums on which to take part

Sunnie2day
Sunnie2day
in reply to GillMac1

I also am a Scot living in Scotland, and agree completely with your comment!

Me too. A thread on the NHS and the US has been instantly hijacked!

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Fortepiano

Being Type I the issue with insulin and other drugs in the US has been on the radar for a while. I only mentioned it today as it featured heavily on local radio. Many people are concerned about the NHS already as many areas including cardiology, physiotherapy and elective surgery are subject to unacceptable delays

I think it is indeed an important and worrying topic. I worry too about staff - my surgical team is entirely from the EU and some have already left. I can't blame them.

I found the US system also to be immensely expensive and bureaucratic, far more so than the NHS.

I saw Michaels post and took that deep breath and didn’t reply but a comment has been made, and I’m paraphrasing, but think accurately about the “democratic referendum result” which, potentially, is anything but. I’m not going to clutter up this forum anymore on this topic, except one point: how many of you give a thought to Boris Johnson being ordered to appear before the High Court to answer for lies told in his campaign to the public. Among which was the infamous “£350m extra to the NHS” slogan. How many gullible people were taken in by this when casting their votes?

I’ll honour the result of the referendum when our elected representatives in public office don’t act in a manner which IMHO becomes treasonous.

Good health to all of you, including those I vehemently disagree with on ethics.

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
Hidden
Hidden
in reply to Hidden

Hey Gunsmoke ! How about exercising that right of “Free Speech “ and answer my question to you about what’s the plan for you ?? 😂

willsie01
willsie01
in reply to Hidden

Think you’re asking for the “right of a reply” 😉

We have no idea what will happen with any free trade agreement and I don't believe scaremongering will affect most people. They have more sense than that and can see through politically motivated emotive headlines; whichever side of the political fence they are on.

Well I pay my National Insurance regularly for MY NHS ...

And prescriptions!

I used to work for a private, patient-transport firm, contracted by the NHS...

Let's keep politics out of this forum. There are lots of special interest forums on the internet where the atmosphere has been poisoned by the introduction of political comment.

So why bring politics into it! This forum is about heart health, I'm sure there are plenty of other places you can blog about the health system. For what it's worth, I've lived in the USA and had heart surgery there as a tourist and the care was first rate. Obama introduced a range of measures to care for the poor and under Trump further measures have been introduced to provide additional funding to hospitals in poorer demographics. Maybe do some research instead of quoting one or two sensationalist journals. Maybe start with the Affordable Care Act!

Unfortunately the two are very much interlinked now I'm afraid.

The affordable care act is is anything but affordable. If you are a middle class wage earner such as myself it gives me the ability to buy a decent health insurance plan for about $1500 a month. That's anything but affordable, as it is about one third of the median annual income and in addition to that one must also pay insurance deductibles. The only ones it's affordable for are individuals that get subsidies from the government because they have little income. If you have happen to just be slacker who does not work the ACA is a great plan as subsidies will pay for virtually all of the expense.

If folks want to do politics can you please go elsewhere. I thought this forum was sharing and supporting others with health issues, if not, will the administrators let me know and I'll go elsewhere. I can get a belly full of politics watching TV, going on-line and listening to the radio. I don't need it here.

Couldn't agree with you more. I await comment from admin on this before I decide

Matt Hancock was fairly quick out of the blocks to squash flat the idea that a US trade deal would give access to the NHS. One to watch though. Disingenuous of the Americans to say a trade deal can be finalised swiftly post Brexit. What they mean is it can be concluded quickly if you roll over and give us all we ask for!

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Hidden

Getting off the politics ,....I think the patches look amazing. What a diffence they would make to so many lifes. I've got Kevin queuing up already!! Might even put him forward for the trials!! 🤔

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
Lezzers
Lezzers
in reply to Hidden

Gotta ask Kevin first!!

447510
447510
in reply to Hidden

Not everything works thou Gunsmoke.

Watched a programs on panorama.... about implants from USA, for spine and heart. Spinal rods to rectify scoliosis etc and about a pacemaker device which stops working after 3 years and can't be removed either. A woman now has to live with that thing in her heart besides an NHS pacemaker she needed after the american pacemaker stopped working.

I am on heart meds and hope this Government just would get on with Brexit and get this done and over with!

Boris Johnson is the last person i would vote for. I just don't trust this man.

Secondly we are so short of GP's in this country now.... crazy. I have to ring surgery to ask my GP to ring me back... and she'll decide if I need an appointment.

But this isn't because of Brexit, we are just short of GP's. Honestly, don't understand why on earth we needed to leave. It has caused more trouble than a positive outcome. Feel sad about this all Gunsmoke 😥

HiddenThis reply has been deleted
447510
447510
in reply to Hidden

Thanks Gunsmoke

Working and GP phone calls i may not be able to take her call when i am at work when busy. Si had to push that yesterday, to ring me before lunch. Needed my fit note urgently from her, as she only works in this surgery Tuesday and Friday.

Its dificult for me at work. I have to avoid extrem heavy lifting. And working in a restaurant kitchen can be tricky. I am a kitchen porter and have to lift plates etc. Despite that they try and wrap me in cotton wool too much. But hopefully they accept my new fit note again as my left heart valve only functioned 40% and ideally should be 50-60%.

So it is tricky and often frustrating.

Hidden
Hidden

As usual, Type 1 diabetes is mentioned without a thought for poor old ignored type 2. In the 21st century if anyone believes that insulin could ever become difficult to get hold of then they have no faith what so ever in the NHS or drug companies that would bend over backwards to maintain their profit margins through stable supply. It is only the patents that prevent other drug companies manufacturing routine medicines which do eventually run out, allowing medicine to be reduced in the long term. As for deals to obtain access to the NHS, well that is political question and I will pas on that one. As for food standards - nothing is sold in this country without it having passed our well established FSA. Should it ever become a fact that chlorinated chicken or hormone treated meat comes into the country, well we can vote with our feet and don't buy it, after all it is all down to marketing choices.

As an aside, I do feel slightly intimidated when I want to answer a very straightforward question from Michaeljh by even daring to and then inadvertently slipping into politics and feel the wrath from those on here who obviously have an agenda themselves and believe intimidation will stop freedom of speech. Everyone is aware why this forum exists and no one would be silly enough to make political mischief by stretching a point, so please before you rattle your sabres, wait until there is something actually printed to disagree with.

Babydriver
Babydriver
in reply to Hidden

There is no nhs in the eu

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star

Please do not feel intimidated by me - I think I am reasnobly pleasant most of the time! I am aware that occasionally I post a response that may seem complicated but it is never the intention.

I do not ignore Type IIs. In the past I have campaigned for test strips for Type IIs as I believe the odd random blood glucose and HbA1c is not a good enough measure of control. If people see the effect of certain foods it helps them realise they need to reduce consumption of it. As you will see I also raise the issue of Type 1.5 that endocrinologists recognise but many other medical professionals do not.

P.S. My intention was not to start a political debate but to raise a genuine concern.

447510
447510
in reply to MichaelJH

I am borderline diabetic, hiw could i test my blood glucose. Dont have anything to do this with Michael.

Secondly we do get concerned about our medication, especially when its essential to keep our health right.

Love this debate. I think its great stuff 😁😁😁

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to 447510

Hi, I will do a more detailed reply later as I need to do a bit of careful research (not medical) first. Potentially I will create a new thread as we are going off-topic. Cheers...

Hidden
Hidden
in reply to MichaelJH

I agree with everything you say and did not feel intimidated by your reply. It was the ones that (to me) seemed to say don't you dare mention politics - unless it is my point of view also! Thats not on and have never responded well to threats. I think that is all I need to say about that!

Your comments about regular testing are most relevant, especially when making changes to have an effect on the results disclosed through testing. I have been type 2 for just 10 years, brought on by extreme stress having to see my disabled sister slowly waste away and die in hospital seven months after her admission, visiting her daily for those months. I am sure there are others who have gone through much more that my wife and I did, however the result on my health was becoming diabetic. After five years I had to begin to take an insulin mix three times a day and in the end was taking an extraordinary amount to hold the blood sugar results within an acceptable range. When things became critical back in April 2016 I went on a diet and lost 7 stone - I am now on diet only but still test at least once a day and still have retinal myopathy eye tests once a year and Hba1C twice a year. During the medication period, I never had any problem testing three or even four times a day so my doctor may be in the minority but really cannot fault the service I have been given but feel sure your support and advice has been well worthwhile in the cementing of a stable treatment regime for type 2 diabetics. Well done

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star
in reply to Hidden

The issuing if test strips is not just a case of Type I/Type II. Basically it depends if the person is on a medication that can cause (potentially dangerous) hypoglycemia. The main one is insulin but there are other drugs like Byetta. No doctor should refuse to prescribe strips as in this case as it is a legal requirement to test your BG before driving and at two hourly intervals. It is quite rare for people in diet or diet and Metformin to be able to get strips on prescription but a worthwhile investment. I will be posting more about this later.

I read this blog and can tell you everything you say about healthcare in the USA is not fact.

We have the best healthcare in the World and no one is denied medical coverage. We have Medicare for Seniors and Medicaid for those can’t afford Obamacare. All the horrendous increases in premiums are due to our Government wanting to take over our healthcare system. Those without insurance can go to any ER and be treated for free-including everything from a runny nose to open heart surgery within hours not days, weeks or months.

I read some of the stories posted here and my heart breaks that you have to wait months for an appointment, more for a lifesaving procedure and then get shuffled from doctor to doctor.

The story on the insulin issue was related to one of the insulin manufacturers being destroyed by a hurricane in Puerto Rico. It was quickly resolved, another provider was found and no one died because of not getting insulin.

I could go on and on but my only hope is we never have government run health care here in the USA. The way our Department of Motor Vehicles is run is evidence enough for me that my health care should not be decided by politicians.

bantam12
bantam12
in reply to not2worry

My sisters experience with health care in USA is not that great, she recently needed some tests done which her insurance would not cover, she couldn't afford the high cost so that was that, tests not done. She's had other issues with Consultants and medications.

Fortepiano
Fortepiano
in reply to bantam12

I have lived and my husband used cardiac care in both the US and NHS. Excellent care in the US as we had good ( and horrifically expensive) insurance. Without that it's a different story. We met people bankrupted by their huge healthcare costs - far more expensive than even private medicine here. Plenty of people denied care too.

Costs in the US are hugely inflated and profit creamed off at every stage. Socialised medicine for me any day.

I'm not sure where US care is ranked but it's certainly not number one!

I too have lived in the USA and had to spend an absolutely eye-watering amount of money to keep my health insurance current. My feeling is health care in the USA is superb, indeed globally Number1 - but ONLY if the health insurance policy the patient has is comprehensive and thus hideously expensive.

And I also can attest to the lack of proper care afforded those with shallow pockets, particularly for those 'working poor' with chronic health conditions. Sadly I know several people in the US who've suffered greatly for lack of a comprehensive health care insurance policy, and a few who eventually died as they simply could not afford the cost of what we would call 'private' care.

The US provides the best healthcare in all the world, but only if you have the resources to pay for it. If you do not have a good insurance plan or a boat load of cash, the level of care you receive will decrease proportionately. Our healthcare system is broken and won't change anytime soon due to greed and politics.

I joined a FB heart attack group, a couple actually and it was v scary how much they have to pay for meds we just take for granted. And the $500 a visit to the ER.

This is not bringing politics into a forum about heart issues, politics are already directly influencing us all with regards to the variable stories you hear just on here.

Alluding to anything negative about Brexit as ‘Project Fear’ is at this point naive at best, and wilfully stubborn. Ask the Honda workers if this is ‘Project Fear’. Or Healthcare Professionals, or the police who are preparing for unrest AFTER Brexit. The wealthy, those with investments have them outside the uk, they moved them before the referendum! This would include Farage (attended 2 out of 200 EU sittings for his area of responsibility in the previous period he was an MEP - for £75k, lowest of all MEPS), Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Moggs who has moved all his financial assets to Ireland.

There’s no project fear, other than ‘don’t speak of Brexit negatively’. I am appalled that my quality and length of life may be affected by a vote that was based on lies. Even more outraged at the money wasted on this whilst working people need food banks. All in the name of ‘too much immigration’. There will be zero impact on illegal immigration, because it’s, illegal. The gaps currently filled by EU nationals will widen to catastrophic levels. How many of your consultants/doctors/nurses etc are British born? and no, it isn’t because they accept less money. We can not recruit them here.

It is quite literally heartbreaking.

In Mississippi lots of Churches have Group Insurance for Medicare, and most Employers have Medical Cover for their employees. As a consequence lots of people have cover.

One thing Trump brought into the open was Fake News and there is a lot of that about the NHS.

Was it you Michael that posted after contacting PALS you had a frosty reception on your next NHS visit !!!

The NHS is not Free it eats Billions of Pounds of Taxpayers Money along with National Insurance. We have many vested interest already in the NHS a few more may not be a bad thing. Remember your GP is in it for profit !!!

In 1948 the NHS was a good idea not to sure if that is the case today, in my opinion is it to large to change and as a consequence our medical care will fall behind others. No other country has an NHS no other country has copied the NHS model!!

Just an Opinion I have lived and worked in the US and had Gamma Knife Brain Surgery there so I do have some experience of there systems.

My Final Comment on this Subject

Silverfox2
Silverfox2
in reply to Prada47

"One thing Trump brought into the open was Fake News and there is a lot of that about the NHS." Yeah like he'd know the truth If he saw it. LOL

"In 1948 the NHS was a good idea not to sure if that is the case today, in my opinion is it to large to change and as a consequence our medical care will fall behind others. No other country has an NHS no other country has copied the NHS model!!"

More fool them then, because imo the NHS model when funded correctly trough taxation is well worth it. Barely anyone could afford to pay privately and I often look upon what goes on the states and weep.

Prada47
Prada47
in reply to Silverfox2

Hi

I think you would be surprised at the amount of money we the people have invested in the NHS since its conception. No Country on Earth could recreate the NHS the Buildings the Equipment it would be impossible. The NHS is changing and a lot of vested interests want to stop it changing. Technology will be the saviour of the NHS just think how many CABGs have not been required due to Stents, Valve surgery is now being carried out using TAVI, Key Hole surgery allows operations which used to require 7 day Hospital stays to be carried out as day patients !!

I think if we are not careful Politics will get in the way of reform of the NHS. It's a classic of " The Past preventing us moving to the Future "

It's not OUR NHS it's THEIR NHS we the Patients are just Customers.

I love the NHS for Acute Medical Service it is probably up there with the Best in the World. For Chronic Care it leaves a lot to be desired to be amongst the Best, it needs to change and quickly before it becomes beyond State Funding

regards

The best health care system in the world?

Not the UK

Certainly not the USA .

Look up the world health organisation's ratings. Both countries are not even in the top ten. UK used to be but is steadily dropping down the ranking order. USA is in the thirties and has one of the worst infant mortality rates .

Any political party that tries to privatise (or Americanise) the NHS would be commiting political suicide, although certain elements of the press bring up the subject mostly for political scaremongering.

However, private investment in the NHS already exists through PFI contracts. These were taken out by both major parties to kick the NHS investment 'can down the road' and are costing a fortune to service.

There will never be enough money to fully fund the NHS, but a service 'free at the point of delivery and based on clinical need' is contained within the NHS constitution, but inevitably the money to fund it has to come from somewhere, anyone who thinks the NHS is free is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Hidden
Hidden

I saw this petition on another hub.

Is this relevant to the thread?

petition.parliament.uk/peti...

Just as an update - apparently President Trump has received better information about the NHS and has this morning (5 June 2019) now rowed back, saying it would never be part of any trade deal between the UK and US.

I do think there was some unnecessary concern about the NHS being 'on the table' for trade negotiations - my understanding was the President meant the trade he was looking for would be to open negotiations for supplies (vinyl gloves, medical equipment, pharmaceuticals like...insulin - could another source supply line be a bad thing?), not to be looking to absorb the entire NHS into any American style health care system. As Labour opened the NHS supply lines up to the EU years ago, I don't understand the worries when all things are considered.

Re the chlorinated chicken, which being a heart patient I do think germane to a heart health forum discussion - having lived in the US and here in the UK, I can safely say I never suffered in the slightest from consuming chlorinated chicken, but since retiring home to the UK endured more than one or two bouts of food poisoning from EU supplied chicken. As for chlorination - we already have chlorinated salad greens on the produce stands in our UK local supermarkets. I wish frozen veg from the EU was treated - might have kept the recent listeria outbreak off our dinner tables (frozen corn, anyone? Personally I still don't trust it although the all-clear has been given).

I hope I haven't ruffled any feathers here this morning - I have been here only a short while and have found the forum to be quite beneficial!

Hidden
Hidden

Power of BHF Hub.............!!!

I noticed the sudden SURGE on the Petition.

Wow!

Patient Power at work.

Heart Patients Power, one must add. :)

I agree with you. Everything in America is money and human life does not count unless you have money. Do we really want to leave Europe without a deal??? If this happens then we should say good by to our precious NHS. 🙏🏻

A lot of all this Post Brexit is speculation and scare mongering

. The NHS already does business with US private companies and has been for many years . A lot has been outsourced to America by our Tory government. Research it and you will see!

Trump has been and still is actively advising our Tory government to scrap the NHS . You are aware of all the financial cuts the Tories have made . They are planning to make more .

If you are concerned about keeping the NHS , In my opinion , it's a good idea to vote Labour .But it's up to you of course . I am not trying to influence you at all . People believe the propoganda spun by the Tories about Corbyn . They do not read Corbyn's policies . If they did , they would realise that Corbyn is for the average person and will keep our beloved NHS .

BTW , I can't see Brexit ever happening!

MichaelJH
MichaelJHHeart Star

This report from the National Audit Office is deeply disturbing:

theguardian.com/politics/20...

the biggest danger post brexit is that the clause that caused problems for the eu signing upto TTIP. (TRADE AGREEMENT WITH USA .) was that the attitude to medicines and research in the USA is to licence medicines first and sue if it does you harm whereas the EU's stance is "FIRST DO NO HARM". This was one of the reasons I was terrified of the EU agreeing to TTIP along with concerns for food processing and safety. Donald Trump backed out of the agreement as the eu wanted and I thank God for that . The NHS is worth fighting for to protect. In Ireland we have always envied the NHS and are currently creeping up the path where our health services are being deliberately undermined to advance take up of private healthcare . The culture in the USA adores only 2 Gods "money and profit"

I do not want to get political,I voted remain as guessed everything that was being promised was a lie as it generally always is with all political groups as they promise things without having a clue where the money is coming from!! In regards to medication there are always some shortages in various medications at some points so best not panic as none of us know what the full outcome will be!