Statin use is usually associated with a reduction of cholesterol and heart attacks, but a new study also shows an important additional benefit -- a significant reduction in strokes and TIA's in the Afib population.
Something to discuss with your doctor if you're not already on statins, especially if you're boderline or even don't qualify for statins under current guidelines.
Here's another link to a paper on updated Statin NICE statin guidelines, showing that more people can benefit from Statins based on new evidence of safety.
Hopefully, something to digest and consider, however you presently feel about statins. Like much of our decisions, it's risk versus reward and both these papers show that new studies demonstrate that the reward of statins is growing vs the risks.
Personally, the statin decision was not an easy one, but given my diet and exercise resistant LDL and family history of CAD, my doctor and myself felt it was the best choice.
Jim
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mjames1
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Thank you very much for your post and the links provided. Much appreciated. I know many people discuss the pros and cons about statins in posts but it is handy to have posts with links to research to help people new to these decisions to make a choice.
Often people don't realise that statin use isn't just about reducing cholesterol levels but also to reduce the risks of cardiovascular incidents by stabilising plaque on the arterial walls which can cause heart attacks , blockages which require surgery and increase the risk of strokes as pointed out in the link.
We have to look at these issues holistically and that also includes looking at the benefits of medication for people at higher risk. So much is genetically determined anyway. I could blow my own trumpet about my low cholesterol but it’s more likely down to my parents’ genes, in the same way that some people have genetically high cholesterol. Those people with FH probably do benefit from their medication. There is the grey area of lifestyle, and maybe some changes make the difference for some people who respond well — but not everyone does. I don’t think we should judge or blame people either. Some people work very hard at looking after themselves but don’t always get the desired result. Too many people come to this forum feeling that they’ve failed in some way, that they did something “wrong” but that’s BS. We should never judge people for taking medication. We should respect their choices. Nobody would ever judge anyone harshly for having an ablation, so we shouldn’t be judging people for their decision to choose medication. It’s not a personal failing.
I have also recently been prescribed a low dose of statin as everything I tried previously, exercise, diet has failed to reduce my LDLs or combined range to below normal and whilst my QRisk is normal currently, I’d like to keep that to a minimum if possible. Genetically, I inherited my fathers make up who never really took his health seriously, had a stroke which left him with vascular dementia and I do not want to go the same way, therefore am happy to try statins to either reverse or slow the likely outcome if I do nothing. I am due for retesting in 3 months, and will give it a year to decide if it’s for me, that decision will depend on the results. We are all so different, therefore thank you for the interesting links, I for one am happy to try available meditation and take learning from real life experience.
I think someone is trying very hard to convince the world that statis are good for you . It is one of the biggest business for pharmaceutical companies. Statins are very bad for you . Dr who telling you you got high cholesterol , I would change him straight away as he is no clue what is talking already , and is a lot of natural ways to change things , without taking heavy drugs with bad side effects that actually can kill you , the rest of your life
Thanks for posting for those that want to re-assure themselves having taken the decision.
For me a study would carry much more weight if it wasn't financed by a company selling them, either directly or indirectly by making a separate gift to the research body.
Those links offer excellent information on this important topic. Thank you. Having just read a great deal, once again, on statins, I remain convinced that they are useful and safe.
Thanks for the interesting links. At the moment my cholesterol is fine, so they have never been suggested, but it is good to get all the information that I can from reliable sources.
There are no ends the pharma industry will not go to to get statins on everyone's daily schedule.
If only they put as much money and time into researching actual conditions that they pretty much ignore and gave us something properly useful instead. But no. Statins are dirt cheap to make and easy to force on people so those with chronic illnesses can just put up and shut up as usual while the industry takes the easy road to mass money making.
I was never pushed to take them either , although they were strongly advised with my combination of conditions.In fact , I had to start taking statins for Familial Cholesteroleimia before my AF and Arrhythmias and the need for an anticoagulant took the majority of supplemental cholesterol lowering alternatives off the safe list of options for me.
I was finally diagnosed with FCh when my GP helped me to confirm my diagnosis by trying six months of a low cholesterol diet , and testing my cholesterol and my husbands each time we trialled a natural option. My husbands cholesterol improved on the diet regime and only had a minor decrease in results with the alternatives.
My cholesterol stayed the same on the whole , and actually increased on one alternative. Diagnosis confirmed, alternatives vigorously tested, the prescribed option was the only thing that would lower my cholesterol and triglycerides.
Not that I hadn't required a gall bladder removal at 40 despite being a slight 8 stone before this cholesterol issue was discovered.
My Mum had the same thing , like most people it was not diagnosed because it's mainly symptom free , or the doctors only spot the eventual results from FCh and don't consider that this was the root cause.
Unfortunately, her worst result was developing Non Alcohol Related Fatty Liver Disease because she hadn't been offered a way to reduce her cholesterol earlier on in life. She also required stents because of blockages but because of our Ehlers Danlos Syndrome they were unsuccessful at being able to place them in despite three attempts so artery management became vital.
It's something I need to be aware of in the future so the Statins are well worth the risk for me.
Even Doctors believe statins “fix” a problem that actually starts with the liver…and poor diet.
Once you become insulin resistant.. your liver can no longer re process LDL because it is stodged up with fats made from excess carbs and fat related to sugar/glucose..omega 6 creates inflammation ..the transport chain of unused cholesterol starts to deposit in other places like the arteries … because all the fat receptors in the liver are busy wondering why more fats are coming down the pipe before the body can burn off the fats it received yesterday..
Statins tell the liver to stop making cholesterol..by saying it’s okay we got this.. you do not need to process cholesterol..the transport chain of fats is compromised..health is restored… ha ha.. no health is compromised too.. your brain and muscles need cholesterol.. a healthy body makes 3000 mg of it each day.. it does not come from food… it comes from the liver.
Intermittent fasting will lower your blood glucose and reverse insulin resistance.. the body then burns fat to get the energy previously stored .. result lower blood sugars.. lower cholesterol.. you can speed this up by taking choline and inositol.. daily!
Ever heard of TOFI people .. thin outside… fat inside.. they are stodged up with fat deposits due to insulin resistance.. sugar gets turned to fat and stored around the organs..type 2 diabetes is the end result.. and it’s reversible.. by try telling people brainwashed into saviour statins… they do not correct the main problem ....they never did… they might buy time enough for you to address your carb and sugar intake..reduce omega 6 and increase omega 3… learn to reduce your eating window.. become more active.. walking is perfect…you then burn stored fat and lower cholesterol … then stop the statins.
Absolutely. Our bodies have this great power of healing themselves in certain situations. Synthetic materials put in the body are always toxic and not meant to be there. The body then has to fight these toxins creating more health problems, especially so for long term using of medication. Side effects should not be ignored and some can be disturbing. So often we are treated for these side effects with more medication. The body has to be healthier if you can avoid taking medications. It’s not always possible and some medications are life-saving, as we all know, but if there is a natural alternative and approach, then l think we should take responsibility and do that thing. Thanks for your interesting post.
I had not heard of the relationship between insulin resistance and LDL. I'm thin - 52kilos - and have highish cholesterol. Have also been hypothyroid for a number of years before addressing it. My question is - if the liver IS malfunctioning due to insulin resistance - would that show up in bloods? Because my blood sugar and liver function at last testing were absolutely fine.
I am not sure.. did you have a 1AC test? this is more accurate than just looking for blood sugar readings… liver function tests check for two enzymes which reflect the load of detoxification especially if you drink alcohol..
Inflammation markers increase the C-reactive protein.. CRP the higher the number the more inflammatory your body is … sometimes cholesterol readings can be high just because of something you ate the previous day.. more often it is processed high carb food..
Please start to look into some of the latest ideas.. insulin resistance just means your pancreas is not turning off when you stop eating possibly because you are eating too many carbs.. but not necessarily.. you can be thin outside but have stores of fat inside…here is a link to Dr Boz who may help you understand what I mean…
Get away from omega 6 and focus on omega 3 .. avoid sugar and HCF …
Some supplements lower blood sugar levels some lower CRP..
Ashwaghanda
Turmeric
Flaxseed (omega3)
Andrographis (also natural antibiotic and king of bitters ..the liver loves bitter foods milk thistle dandelion leaf..above four reduces inflammation lowers CRP
Olive leaf extract natural antibiotic used by romans
Ashitaba (tomorrows leaf)
Amla (Indian gooseberry)blood glucose leveller
White elderberry. Next four reduce blood sugars lowers insulin output..
Metformin can help reduce blood sugar too .
Things that lower cholesterol anatto Tocotrienols (delta/gamma)especially GG geranylgeraniol .. but it’s expensive.. both work directly on healing pancreas and liver cells. read Dr Barrie Tan .(YouTube)
shorten your eating window to 6 or 4 hours a day.. will reduce the burden of insulin production.. will restore cholesterol triglyceride levels in most cases… certain endocrine diseases may prolong the recovery.
This is interesting and thanks for coming back to me. After reading your post I headed off down a few rabbit holes about the relationship between LDL and insulin resistance and the liver. Two recent articles that now warn against statins as a first port of call for high cholesterol. I then checked my February bloods - actually the LDL level in my liver is OK but not great. Whereas my triglycerides are heroic. High cholesterol is linked with hypothyroidism and I know my TSH and T4 levels aren't yet optimal, so things may improve once I've reached that level and been stable for 6 months. I totally agree that a simple cholesterol test can be misleading, given what might be hanging around in one's blood stream first thing in the morning. Although I always leave 14 hours overnight before eating. I also have a defective digestive system - the digestive branch of my vagus was tied almost 50 years ago after abdominal surgery. I know that I have an exceptionally slow transit time. So that impacts on readings too. Whether it means my arteries are clogged is another matter. But, from your response I think my first step is to get the 1AC test and perhaps look into changing my morning breakfast routine. Tragic to lose the overnight oats, but if my insulin resistance is poor, it makes sense.
No do not stop the oats.. they actually lower cholesterol.. and the fibre and protein is very helpful in sopping up ldl…and for what it’s worth if you suspect your arteries check if you have persistent high blood pressure … if your body is within normal ranges then do not worry.. if you want to run a non invasive test CAC calcium artery score will help.. if it is bad … niacin… K2 with Vit D .. research Patrick Theut…
I wrote a reply to Jomico which you might find helpful, as I was concerned for you and others whom might be considering the suggestions.Most of the alternative supplements that were suggested are not recommended with anticoagulants or blood thinners because of their effect on clotting.
They can also cause hypoglycemia and effect thyroid balance so it's really important to know if your have a diabetes issue and have your thyroid managed before considering them even if you are not on a blood thinner.
Feel free to private message me if you want to discuss anything, I'm happy to help if I can, take care and keep safe , Bee
Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm still checking things out. I've happened on this because someone higher up the thread or on CDreamer's post the other day spoke about Apple Cider vinegar. And found this pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/341...
No significant difference to LDL apparently, just the triglycerides and another marker I hadn't heard of.
Lose the breakfast and have your first meal at lunchtime. Eat your next meal before 6pm and that will give you an easy 16-18 hour intermittent fast window.
Nope nope nope. (I know you mean well btw). Did that before and caused awful blood sugar issues. I typically finish eating at 7.30pm and don't eat till 9.30am. That 14 hour window for someone my age and weight (52kilos) is sufficient I think. I cannot afford to lose more weight.
I'm sure many of these supplements may be helpful in managing cholesterol and blood sugar in the generally healthy population , but the majority of them aren't recommended to be used by people taking anticoagulant/ blood thinning medication.That also includes Tocotrienols.
I think it's really important on health forums to double check whether it's safe to use herbal or nutrient supplements with the medications that the people using that forum are commonly on before recommending that people should try them.
It is one of the reasons people whom need to take statins because of their personal and family medical history are offered them rather than getting the suggestion to take other alternatives except for using them hand in hand with diet and lifestyle changes if they are required. Often the cholesterol lowering and plaque stabilising supplements, including for example, Coenzyme Q10, can't be used alongside blood thinners because they also have an effect on coagulation rates and bleeding which does not happen on a statin , or statin alternative.
It's also really important for someone to be sure they have Type 2 diabetes or do not suffer from low blood sugar health problems before taking many supplements like these because they can cause hypoglycemia .
I'm sure you wouldn't have made the suggestions if you'd realised this which is why I thought it was important to reply , take care , Bee
Yes plants are often called drugs… when they are really just God given polyphenols…(25,000 +) the body understands plants better than they do drugs… no side effects..any excess gets excreted … and if you stop taking them .. no withdrawal effects.Yes some plants are poisonous belladonna atropine… digoxin… but they are still used in medicine and save lives.
We arrived at the drug market of today because of the monks who were our first botanists/alchemists... they realised the benefit of these things growing out of the ground… but like grocers you cannot make huge profits or make patents from plants or trees.Along comes big pharma who have a bible of drugs and interactions.. but rarely any trials are run alongside to see how polyphenols help or hinder.. why? .. because it’s all about profit…we can’t use nettle to build back adrenal function etc etc..
All drugs seem to have a free of blame card..Cancer treatments blood pressure .. blood thinners.. cholesterol lowering drugs often contain venom peptides ..okay they save lives and everyone is willing to take them even if it means putting up with side effects .. long term effects carry unwanted brain and liver damage for some… they also seem to reduce quality of life with reduced energy because they interfere with the mitochondria… polyphenols improve energy..CoQ10 is really important to energy and heart mitochondria so is magnesium ..but the pharmaceutical industry only want you on the customer base of supply.
My story ends with a story about a doctor who treated a patient for cancer…who got seriously ill and went to a clinic outside of the control of the FDA..and became well .. completely cured.. the doctor said it was a fluke spontaneous remission..(there is always magic words to explain away anything natural) years later that same doctor caught cancer .. used the same treatment protocols without success.. contacted her previous patient and went to this clinic and again cured .. this clinic used both drug and polyphenols..yea anecdotal stories are not backed up by real trials for one reason.. to give big pharma the upper hand in any treatment plan.. ask any doctor what they think about vitamins and minerals .. it’s always the same answer .. expensive urine. they receive roughly 6 hours training in seven years on vitamins and minerals …same goes for nurses(I know my mum was one who often told me minerals never worked) it’s not important but big pharma keeps pushing more and more information on the latest concoctions
I am only suggesting safe polyphenols that improve the condition of you blood and mitochondria.... I also believe you should stick to your doctors recommendations… and use your treatment plans and medicines alongside vitamin and mineral supplements.they work synergistically ..only don’t go overboard.
My journey with prostate issues.. My consultant urologist told me I could not reduce my psa or prostate size and would need the knife.. so all I said to was let me try… I used certain polyphenols and got my numbers back down and can pee normally …same went for my cholesterol and blood pressure.. both lower because of plant based choices… research your options .. remember most things are biased so try to find four different sources or papers and make an informed decision.. that is key .. just letting someone else decide what’s best for you can sometimes be a bad choice.
be well everyone… that’s all I ever ask or ever wanted.
I agree with a lot of what you said.. but the jury isn’t even debating Tocotrienols yet… it is an amazing plant and 50 times more effective than plain tocopherol…
Footnote.
Just to re emphasise.. cholesterol is a balancing act.. with insulin levels
Pump out lots of insulin.. up goes your ldl.. only way back is to reduce insulin output.. regular intermittent fasting..will allow the liver to clear the overload and reduce arterial plaque.. taking statins without addressing insulin resistance leaves you stuck in a quandary.
If you are on statins keep taking them…but look at your 1AC ..
You comments about these herbal alternatives is not correct. They can , and do , have serious side effects if they are used with anticoagulants and blood thinners. It is not responsible to suggest otherwise which is why it's important to check these interactions before taking any natural alternatives.
Even if you are not on medications ; supplements and natural alternatives still have side effects , cause intolerance issues, allergies and various health problems when used inappropriately or in unmanaged doses. They equally alter the body chemistry and can cause many unpleasant side effects when people begin to use them. And they also take time to leave the body , if they have caused an issue, that problem takes the same time to recover from as it would if the problem was caused by a prescribed medication. The body still requires time to heal from the adverse effects and restore it's balance.
To state anything else is just a way to promote the argument that alternative options are safer and better, but that is not the whole facts.
I understand a great deal about Diabetes.I have looked after and fed a husband for 24 years with Type1 Diabetes.
I helped my mother reverse her Type2 Diabetes three times having her return to being medication after she often returned to bad lifestyle habits . On one occasion after fasting diets and inappropriate dietary supplementation.
I helped Nurse my Uncle with the most severe Type 3 medically induced Diabetes for five years after he had his pancreas removed because of cancer.
I have genetic Familial Cholesteroleimia and diagnosed Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency among my various health issues.
I have done an incredible amount of research over the last 25 years into all of my health conditions and created diet and lifestyle self care changes which weren't even being discussed when my health issues began. I've have done this by creating a holistic and organically altering system were my self care and medications work hand in hand.
Although you must consider the links between Insulin Sensitivity and Cholesterol I'm afraid that your ideas are too simplistic and more useful as prevention care measures for those with no preexisting health conditions , and especially these opinions require even more care in consideration of helping to control arterial plaque and create a healthy insulin/ sugar balance.
I have always had an open mind , and still do research anything that is suggested as an alternative to my current regime, but as a person whom has both cared for people with these conditions, and treated my own health issues I know that what you are suggesting , particularly in relation to fasting and these herbal alternatives is not recommended or appropriate for people on blood thinners or with many different types of preexisting health conditions.
( I have never suffered any level of insulin resistance despite my cholesterol condition and other illnesses and taking medication when they became required)
Do you have any other health conditions that give you experience of the things you are discussing?
One point to fact check , there has been some medical research into Tocotrienols and it's inaction with anticoagulants/ blood thinners , which is why I was able to fact check that information about its effect on clotting time and bruising .
Knowledge is power in helping to maintain our health care .
Which is why I wish people from both sides of the Statins debate would check their facts , the statin users , but also the people whom are against statins whom need to compare the medical research against their reading of alternative methods often created for those of the generally healthy population .
Even the biggest reputable influencers and health professionals in Anti Statin Lifestyles state within their materials and books that people whom have been prescribed statins because of a heart condition or after severe cardiac events should take them. Their programmes , as they state themselves , are created to help people whom do not require them as part of their cardiac or chronic illness prevention care.
My experience is limited to my own father and mother… my father had arteriosclerosis diagnosed at 40 years and spent the next 48 years on blood pressure medication and the last 20 years on statins.. he was extremely intelligent fit and strong.. but for some reason went downhill with memory impairment and weakened muscles..then dementia.. on reflection I suspected statins as being part of cause but not entirely..insulin resistance seemed to fit as he never controlled his diet excessively.
My mother on medication to treat asthma.. and statins due to high cholesterol… her mind just went into full decline dementia in the last five years of her life as she was on a very high dose of statins..the Afib started after jab one and heart failure followed both are now deceased..now tell me I got this all wrong and statins kept them alive longer but at a price.
I have two choices if I want to prevent the same fate.. control what I eat and how often… or pop a statin and get to the point where I do not even know if I am alive.
You mention aFib began after a jab for your mother , which jab was that?I'm sorry for your losses.
A statin obviously wouldn't prevent an adverse reaction to another medication from having a serious effect on a persons cardiac health or the effect of ageing on the brain, they aren't designed for that.
I cannot say what jab suffice to say she had three as did her last husband she died along with four others a week later in the same care home in France…but we have to keep our opinions quiet(what a joke!) go figure.. statins force the body to reduce its cholesterol output.. but what happens is cholesterol feeds muscles and brain(brain is made of cholesterol) so once you starve brain and muscle they atrophy .. what a surprise!
Yes both parents took big S both ended up with dementia and muscle pain… both have since died... but hey just keep believing it’s all anecdotal.. and don’t expect me to choose this option when there are other things that help.
In a later comment you state there has been a recent modest 1% decrease in dementia? Is that your definition of exponential? It's fine having different views but please don't dress them up as being factually based. Just say 'in my opinion'.... especially on a forum like this which is supposed to be helpful and supportive of people seeking helpful advice around their mainstream medical care. There is a place for alternative therapies, but as you also say elsewhere it's your right not to touch things with a barge pole.
Dementia affects an estimated 10% of the population older than 65 years. Because vascular and lipid-related mechanisms are thought to have a role in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease and vascular dementia, we did an epidemiological study of the potential effect of HMGCoA (3 hydroxy-3methylglutaryl-coenzyme A) reductase inhibitors (statins) and other lipid-lowering agents on dementia.
Methods
We used a nested case-control design with information derived from 368 practices which contribute to the UK-based General Practice Research Database. The base study population included three groups of patients age 50 years and older: all individuals who had received lipid-lowering agents (LLAs); all individuals with a clinical diagnosis of untreated hyperlipidaemia; and a randomly selected group of other individuals. From this base population, all cases with a computer-recorded clinical diagnosis of dementia were identified. Each case was matched with up to four controls derived from the base population on age, sex, practice, and index date of case.
Findings
The study encompassed 284 cases with dementia and 1 080 controls. Among controls 13% had untreated hyperlipidaemia, 11% were prescribed statins, 7% other LLAs, and 69% had no hyperlipidaemia or LLA exposure. The relative risk estimates of dementia adjusted for age, sex, history of coronary-artery disease, hypertension, coronary-bypass surgery and cerebral ischaemia, smoking and body mass index for individuals with untreated hyperlipidaemia (odds ratio 0·72 [95% Cl 0·45–1·14]), or treated with non-statin LLAs (0·96 [0·47–1·97], was close to 1·0 and not significant compared with people who had no diagnosis of hyperlipidaemia or exposure to other lipid-lowering drugs. The adjusted relative risk for those prescribed statins was 0·29 (0·13–0·63; p=0·002).
Interpretation
Individuals of 50 years and older who were prescribed statins had a substantially lowered risk of developing dementia, independent of the presence or absence of untreated hyperlipidaemia, or exposure to non-statin LLAs. The available data do not distinguish between Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia.
That study is 23 years old! And only carried out on mere 284 cases. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.
Latest data is more like this;
”Key Facts (U.K.). 431,845 patients had a recorded diagnosis of dementia on 31 January 2023, a decrease of 2,566 patients since 31 December 2022. 61.8% of patients aged 65 or over who are estimated to have dementia, had a recorded diagnosis of dementia on 31 January 2023, a decrease from 62.5% on 31 December 2022.”
The study I quoted was a controlled study, the data and results were significant and valid. Unless a fault was found in the methodology the results stand. 2+2 still makes 4.The data you quote is an analysis of recorded diagnosis. It is raw data without any interpretation in this format. So recording may be up because of better knowledge, but equally recording may be worse because of lack of access to services? It doesn't say.
However, at face value it's an interesting observation and any reduction would in my view be a whoopee moment, not least as the population age profile predicts an increase in dementia. If indeed 2566 people through lifestyle changes were avoiding dementia that is a whoopee moment both for the individuals and their families, and us picking up the economic costs for health and social care
Saying something is old is not science just a recording of fact and is not particularly helpful. But thank you for the actual data link and for the opportunity to reflect on your comment and my input again which remains valid.
You work very hard at staying well. Your story is important because you acknowledge that your medicines are an essential part of managing your very complex health issues but you also are a great believer in lifestyle, diet and judicious use of supplements. It’s not either/or for many people, sometimes it’s both. I don’t think anyone works harder than you to stay well and you are always very generous with your information and take the time and care to help others.
That's very kind , thank you Autumn , and thank you for sharing your valuable experiences with us as well because I know you have to work equally hard on looking after yourself with your conditions too and gave a lot of great advice to share.As you say , it isn't a matter of either/or , finding the right combination of tested techniques which work for you as an individual is the way to go.
That's why I never close myself off to new information from either end of the health spectrum but I'm also careful not to jump on any bandwagons.
Mjames1: Agree with you totally. A wealth of responsible and non-anecdotal data is out there concerning the benefits of statins, over and above cholesterol management. This data is selectively ignored by many.
There is also data that demonstrate the plethora of side effects alleged to statins, in fact occur with the same frequency in any control group. This data is also ignored.
I am amazed at the number of folks on this forum who will bash the hell out of reliable scientific data, than gleefully promote herbs, tonics, and whatnot.......having no idea what may be in them, doing to them, or any contraindications to them-they will rely on anecdotal information and "research"-generally conducted by the sellers of the products in question. It's "natural", so it must be good! Any synthetic chemical must be bad!
So be it-they are them, I am me, and I will happily continue my statin medications, and, any other "synthetic poisons" that responsible research has demonstrated will help my condition. Such silliness!
The “wellness” industry and its relentless marketing of all these supplements and powders and “protocols” is a vast unregulated minefield and it’s a massively lucrative market. At its most benign, it’s mostly placebos with good PR. Most people don’t realise that supplements are regulated as foods, not as medicines and are not allowed to be promoted to “treat” any diagnosed medical condition. Some products contain practically none of its active ingredient and some, particularly those bought online from outside the UK/EU can contain dangerously high levels of active ingredient, and in some cases be contaminated or adulterated with other unlisted ingredients. It really is a case of buyer beware. If food fraud is a know issue (herbs, spices, olive oil, honey) then imported supplements etc will be too.
Having said that, every so often I fall for some product or another, I am not immune to the hype either. But my own approach is the food first one hence I stick with culinary ingredients and teas, and prefer a food first approach overall. But I do get sucked into the wellness claims and I really have had to learn to take a step back and question the hype.
I do take some supplements, but not with high levels. For instance the UK recommended level of vitamin D3. I have run them past my pharmacist too. I stopped fish oil for a while, due to anticoagulants, though I had been taking it for ages. However, I started getting dry eyes and decided that the small amount should be ok. Also probiotics, so I’m not entirely immune to it all!
Well foods and drugs are administered and controlled by the the FDA … (food and drugs administration) supplements often in small print on the facing label include the words
“This has not been evaluated by the FDA”legalese to avoid liability… tread carefully.
The FDA has no jurisdiction in the UK, though in the UK supplements are regulated as foods. I think the UK has better regulations than the US but I may well be wrong about that. There are some approved herbal remedies in the UK. Although most supplements that people buy are likely to be safe, I think people should exercise caution when buying imported supplements. It is certainly a case of buyer beware.
I don’t promote herbs, tonics or any alternative medicines as they would interact with my anticoagulant. Neither do l bash the hell out of data (if it’s the truth). I notice that people who take statins ignore the disadvantages, and the data for that. Providing, of course, that’s available and there’s not one big cover up. As said before we have a choice and that choice should not be influenced by someone who is not medically trained and pushing the drug on the evidence of something he has read,
What is the problem with someone making a post they want to make ? If it isn’t something g that is of interest to you personally just scroll on - it’s not difficult
It is of great interest to me actually and l find this a very serious matter. I am against anyone pushing people to take drugs when they don’t know all the facts. We have a choice and that choice should not be influenced by someone who is not medically trained. I notice that people who take them have ignored the disadvantages. As for alternative medicines, l don’t think many of us are able to take herbs, tonics etc. owing to interactions with anticoagulants etc.
I consider herbal remedies as drugs. They can be quite potent. That’s why I draw the line at culinary herbs and teas known to be safe. I mean, you get people on here saying green tea is a trigger, don’t you? So I err on the side of caution. So far my liver is good and I want to keep it that way.
I don’t and never have taken herbal remedies. You are correct they are drugs. I take various vitamin supplements that l need to keep my electrolytes in sync. Herbal remedies would interact with the Warfarin l take as my anticoagulant, ln my posts l was referring to changing lifestyle and diet,particularly diet, before entering into another life-long medication. This has worked for me, so am l one of the lucky ones maybe? So many people are happy to pop a pill before trying another way out. I am only referring to statins here and not other heart medication, which cannot be helped in this respect. A question l always ask is, what are the long term effects of taking a drug. PPI’s for instance were dished out like smarties and now we are hearing of the consequences of those, same goes for tranquillisers. That’s why l feel nothing is foolproof until tried and tested extensively and over a long term. I am not condoning anyone’s decision to go on statins, but l do object to people being self-righteous, condescending and pushing others to do what they are doing and recommending them to see their GP. I didn’t think this was allowed on here anyway. This is not a forum to give medical advice, and which, l believe, is one of the rules. The original post was advising people to go speak to the doctor because what he had written in his post and, the link he provided, stated the advantages of statins, no mention of the disadvantages and, therefore, was influencing the reader’s decision. Thank you for your reply.
It all depends where your baseline is to begin with, doesn’t it? I’ve never been offered statins, BP medication or PPIs, and so far no offer of anticoagulants. I don’t believe people taking these medications are unthinking automatons following orders. Nobody wants a diagnosis of anything and nobody actually wants to be on medication either. People shouldn’t be shamed for taking prescribed medicines. I don’t see it as a badge of honour not to be taking these medicines, though. Nor is it any sort of “achievement” to never have any need for them. Does it make me “special” for never having been offered these drugs? No, I don’t think so. Some people do take these medications but it doesn’t necessarily follow that they don’t know what they’re doing, or are ill-informed, or need to “see the light”. They may well have made an informed decision, and their decision should be respected.
Cavalierubie stop being negative and critical of other people posts, you don’t own this site, I am grateful for his posts and I think he encourages constructive debate so you stop lecturing us on when or what to post.
The definition of debate is a discussion of opposing opinions. If everyone agreed there would be no debate. I stand by my opinion - l feel the thread is biased anyway. Accusing me of “lecturing when and what to post”. is derogatory.
I've really appreciated this thread. Very interesting. After my exchange with Hidden I found these two articles. One is more journalistic but with medical contributors, including a cardiologist; the other is more heavy duty on the body chemistry side, and whilst I don't pretend to understand it fully,I do underdtand the take aways. Here's the more academic one academic.oup.com/jcem/artic...
interesting. I am 68 with paroxyl afib for 9 years. On apaxiban only. Can’t take anything else down to slow heart rate. My doctors haven’t checked my cholesterol just saying I am low risk! So I am just about the only person of my age I know who hasn’t been offered statins. Strange or does the anticoagulant do the same job
A year older, and I’ve never been offered them. Now in permanent AFib and on apixaban and Bisoprolol. I have had cholesterol checked though, and it’s fine. I suppose they could have been suggested if I had high LDL.
Same here, though if I am advised by the cardiologist or GP then I would likely take them. I’m not sure about all the side effects etc, but must admit that Bisoprolol and apixaban already mess with my digestion!
Are you sure your doctors are not checking your cholesterol ? Having a known cardiac issue it seems unusual that you wouldn't have at least a yearly lipid profile with your well visit. Even your PCP should be doing yearly labs. Maybe double check if it's being done & they aren't discussing the results because your results are within normal limits.
I do have blood tests once a year for kidney and liver function because I am on apaxiban I honestly don’t know if that tests the cholesterol though? Other than that I never get any check up. Boots were offering check ups so I went there and my my bp was spot on but they don’t do cholesterol
I would also be surprised if you haven’t had your cholesterol checked. If you are on the UK you ought to have had NHS health checks every 5 years after the age of 40, at the very minimum. I would presume your results were normal if it hasn’t been mentioned. You can ask for copies of your blood test results. You won’t be offered statins if your cholesterol levels are within range.
I am in the uk. The results of the kidney and liver function are on my online health record but they are rather technical so can’t tell if it includes a cholesterol test
I ask for a printout from the GP although if any tests are ordered by a hospital the GP may not be able to access them. I usually ask for copies of my results from my consultant when I attend my haematology appointments. It’s best to ask who ordered the test. GPs usually order cholesterol tests so I’d start there.
The NHS health check is for people who are not diagnosed with any history of CVD or metabolic syndrome conditions such as high BP or diabetes. I don’t know whether being diagnosed with AF means that you’re not in the NHS health check system as it is considered “screening”, the purpose of which is to identify those at greater risk of CVD and other non communicable diseases.
It came in about 20 years ago, I think. Usually the GP asks you to come in for blood tests and a BP check, if you haven’t been seen for something else. It’s the people they don’t see for years that they want to check.
In practice it does not appear that you need a massive dose. I take 5mg daily - keeps my cholesterol around 4, which my doctor is happy with, as she does not want it to go too low .
I haven't posted for a long time, but thought this stating topic interesting. I hate the idea of them, and my endocrinologist told me I had to, has I have type 1 diabetes as well as ablation for AF. The endocrinologist out me on 5 mg, and I bought a cholesterol meter, accucheck.
And found, after initially getting levels down could cut statins back to 1 every second day, to keep cholesterol in check. May not work for everyone, but if you get a meter to measure, and monitor levels, could be good.
As I said previously it's by using diet and lifestyle choices hand in hand with the appropriate medications when they became required, which eventually included statins after either Familial Cholesteroleimia ( which is a little discussed but very common genetic disorder) or a cardiac condition requiring them to reduce the risks if future events became necessary.I've never just popped a pill , either a medication or a supplement, without being sure that I required them.
And for years before I needed to take statins I vigorously tested numerous non statin food and supplement alternatives alongside my healthy diet which I could trial with my health conditions before seeing that they had no significant affect on me or my husband.
Eventually, members of my family required low dose statins, just as they required other medications. I don't think anyone just crams in statins to replace a healthy lifestyle , no medication or supplement alone is a "cure all" , and most long term health conditions require management rather than miracles.
I’m wondering about familial cholesteroleimia, due to parental & sibling cardiac conditions.. my recent heart attack, high blood pressure & high cholesterol… means I’m now on high dose 80mg statins, with really worrying side effects…. How is FC diagnosed/identified.?
The gold standard for diagnosis of familial Cholesteroleimia is a genetic test but because of cost it's often not done unless you already have a direct relative whom has had the diagnosis first ( parent, sibling, child, ).Anyone can have short term hypercholesterolemia. That is classed as a cholesterol range when you have a total cholesterol level over 8.0 and an LDL Cholesterol level over 4.9 with your Triglycerides in the normal range. For most people hypercholesterolemia can improve with strict lifestyle changes over some time , or lower dose statins .
Some people also get short term hypocholesterolemia or familial Cholesteroleimia, which is very low cholesterol ranges as well. A number of High triglycerides results can be an indication of Hyperlipidemia.
In a clinical setting , familial Cholesteroleimia is usually considered if you have the high ranges of LDL in blood tests especially after you have attempted changing the levels with a change in diet and lifestyle, my levels actually increased and I had , had a healthy diet for years beforehand .
A family member with a cholesterol problem or early age cardiac health problems ( serious events before 50) , and some tell tale signs on the skin.
Skin signs are like large fatty lumps , or small bursts of tiny lumps often around the eyes , elbows , ankles and Achilles tendon area and the tendons of the hand at the knuckle.
My FC was diagnosed before my AF began and before I began statins . I had several high cholesterol tests despite making strict diet and lifestyle changes and trying things like sterols and alternatives. My mother was also diagnosed during a hospital admittance while I was trialling the non statin testing. Both sides of my family had a history of CAD and on my father's side deaths before age 50 and evidence of the skin spots . I was being tested for EDS by the genetics service anyway when my Mum was found positive so when I told them they did the test at the same time and it had two positive markers.
Which statin are you taking? How long have you been on them?
If you are having side effects it could be worth asking to try a different brand of statin , it can take trial and error to find the right one? I had to change to Rosuvastatin because of side effects. Atorvastatin is the first line choice ( most commonly prescribed) but it can cause more side effects and many people swap from it. There are also other options .
You are on the standard higher dose which is often the case if you have recently had a heart attack or surgery but can be reduced over time after you finish recovery to a lower maintenance dose?
Your body can sometimes take time to get used to your statin and your other medications, especially while you are still in recovery but if you find you are having side effects you can ask the GP about splitting the dose during the day , or reducing the dose if your cholesterol proves to have been managed and your recovery is going well. With statins the Doctor also likes to help you find the balance between getting cardiac protection and any side effects right.
If you find you can't manage on any statin brand or dose because it is causing side effects you can then request to try the non statin alternative, Ezetimibe instead.
It is quite a lot of trial and error to get what gives you the protection with the least amount of side effects after a heart event.
I’m well aware that ingredients are sourced from all over the world and regulation and testing is very hit and mix in the food sector. A lot of so-called “honey” is imported from China and is mostly glucose-fructose syrup so unless you know a beekeeper to buy from directly, I’m inclined to avoid it altogether. Manuka honey fraud is rife, as you may well be aware of, and even many of the honeys sold as Manuka only have the tiniest amount, the rest being cheap honey or even just glucose-fructose syrup. Yet those are often what people buy, believing that they will get the medicinal benefits of Manuka honey. I’ve probably bought culinary herbs that have been adulterated with cheaper ingredients, just going by the amount of fraud in that sector, but I may well have never realised at the time. There needs to be at least some regulation in place, although I believe it is weak and poorly enforced. I don’t think it’s an easy task for the consumer to take on, not by any means.
That was why food regulation came into force to start with… but sadly as effective as a chocolate teapot.Thankyou for all your explanations it should help me and others to look more closely at what we buy.
The MRA was bought into play to help different countries merge control over borders and prevent variation on policy.
I could take considerable offence. I'm grateful for the progress made in medical health that has dramatically improved the health outcomes for myself, my wife, many members of my family and countless friends. Homeopathy has been around for hundreds and thousands of years but has not made the impact on life expectancy and quality of life years made in my lifetime. I'm not aware of any regulated testing regimes that apply to supplements, natural remedies etc. That is not to say that they may have value in supporting diet and good health. I take some supplements to offset some issues associated with the loss of an organ as well as prescribed meds following a severe stroke and subsequent detection of Afib. I have found for the most part HU a very supportive and helpful forum especially as my health problems came out of the blue and as for most people create some anxiety. I don't however find it helpful when people hijack a forum to flag wave and brow beat people with views that critique the gentle helpful advice and support most people offer. There must be another forum for GAD, which I think is an issue that you are interested in and certainly demonstrate in your contribution above to me.
Point taken.. I feel happy with most answers I read.. this one feels a little passive aggressive.. maybe I deserve that.. I will make one suggestion to anyone reading my last post on this thread.. do not use google.. it is often part of the Bill Gates narrative and most medical searches feed false facts.. just doing a search on other search engines prove this..but as always we should be free to research and believe what we like..the latest information on certain statins is revealing changes that support new findings not things written two decades ago.. I apologise to you for pointing this out… and wish you well.
Thank you for the info. My PCP never suggested statin, although afib for 2 years now, and constant bad cholesterol results. Recently my new cardiologist had me start, although I did it reluctantly. Your post made me glad I did👍
My Cholesterol is close to normal but slightly high but many years ago around 1999 when Statins were flavour of the month I was prescribed them. This was many years before my AF kicked in in 2016 after a life time of being a PEd instructor and cancer treatment (I believe one or other or both of these could have been a trigger for AF especially as it started about 2 months after the cancer treatment. The Statins caused me to have dizzy spells and fainting attacks which stopped when I stopped taking them so unless a good reason given I would not go back on them again - though I am sure there are better versions avialable now which would not cause the fainting. My brother who lives in South Africa is on them but he had a CAC test before going on them - I think this is normal at his annual check up with his private healthcare - I do not know what his cholesterol is. He seems to be fine on them. My wife despite a history of heart problems in her family has never been given a cholesterol test in her life by her GP (we went to different GP's at the time I was prescribed them. When she was ill in 2015 she went for a private test which showed she was on the high side but her Dr still wouldn't prescribe Statins for her and made quite a fuss about it. My cholesterol has not changed in over 20 years.
Seems odd the different ways GP's react to prescribing Statins.
This is taken from an answer to a similar thread some time ago which I saved and I wish I could remember who posted it. The original poster felt they were being scared into taking something they did not want to take and probably didn't need.
"... I discovered something called QOF - quality outcome framework on which doctors pay is calculated and includes a number of strategies where GPs have to have coversations with patients. Statins is one of those, hence so many doctors "almost insisting" that patients take them. the fact is that it is the conversation that counts not the taking of the statins as my GP readily accepted and told me so maybe some honesty would help to make up your mind.
... what annoys me is the almost blackmail and scare mongering approach your GP has taken. I am quite sure that for some people statins can be helpful but please, for the right reason."
By the way my wife had to instigate the one and only conversation she had with her old GP about cholesterol and statins and he got quite annoyed that she should think she may even be considering she may need them - so thankfully not all GP's do "insist" or "scare monger".
Thanks for this Jim. I’ve taken Atorvastatin 80 mgs for 10 years and have never felt that I was experiencing side effects.
The London teaching hospital cardiologist and professor I saw, said that the role of statins was as anti inflammatory agents and that the cholesterol lowering effect was incidental.
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Anticoagulants do not affect cholesterol, one way or the other. Different bird.
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