We have a discussion going on spices. I want to throw out a question on triggers many said it can be spices some said a cold drink can also trigger them.
My question is, even tho many are on heart rate medications, these things still all trigger you?
I ask because since I started on a BP/heart rate medication I have not had any episodes. I am wondering if in time they won't work and I will go back to all my old triggers?
Just curious for your feedback. Even though being on a heart rate medication you still can get triggered.
peaceful, here.
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How long is a piece of string? AF is THE most contrary, irregular, contradictory and universally unique to everyone of us. Love spices, no problems. Drink coffee, occasional beer and glass of wine, no problem but slightest hint of an infection and AF returns. Inflammation is the one thing that links all ‘triggers’. If you have an inflammatory response to anything, it could, possibly trigger an AF episode if you are paroxysmal. Drugs do not stop AF, heart rate drugs limit the heart rate.
For me, I would lurch into AF if I ate food and especially food with certain ingredients ( half the time I wouldn't know what). I control my food intake (based on advice from a nutritionist) and with my heart rate meds (Bisoprolol) I now have no AF and as far as I can remember now haven't had an AF event for 18 months.
However, as I am in disagreeable mood at the moment I cannot agree with Bob that AF begets AF ... it may do if you let it and don't correctly and accurately identify triggers, and further, I cannot see any point in having heart rate meds as a PIP. If you are prescribed heart rate control meds to control heart rate then take them continuously. How on earth can you control HR by switching the meds on and off ... its not like boiling an electric kettle containing cold water by switching the thing on and off willy nilly to produce and control your hot water needs.
The PIP as far as I can see doesn't and can't control, retrain and/or reregulate the heart beat/rate .... taking the HR control meds continuously, non stop over a long time period and maybe permanently too, will go much further to provide that control/retraining of the heart.
I am taking 5mg Bisoprolol daily, at night before bed. It keeps my HR overnight at between 54 and 60 .... and during the daytime (if I'm not at work or involved in any active stuff ) it'll hold it at 64 -67 bpm. Ideal. In the few years leading up to AF mugging me, my HR ( without any controlling medication) was upper 80's to mid 90 beats per minute.
Great reply Ben. Mt cardiologist would agree as he does not favour PIP likening it to and I quote 'a rollercoaster' being coiner productive for many; although saying that PIP does appeal if like me you hate the thought of pills for ever.
Also great you consulted another practitioner, the Nutritionist.
As I have said before the most likely 'cure' is a 'hybrid cure' where you combine Lifestyle changes (eg on diet 90% less gluten & 75% less sugar) with some medication or for some an ablation.
If you are winning then keep it up and avoid the trap of letting things slip if you feel fine ie don't go back to your old ways.
Sorry John but I disagree completely about PIP rate meds. If you have a normal heart rate when in NSR and PAF with few episodes why on earth would you want to take a drug every day that makes you feel crap? This is the case for many including myself. My resting rate is about 63 sometimes lower but my rate in afib goes up to around 140/150bpm. I take a tiny dose of Nebivolol which is probably a waste of time but any more daily and I feel lethargic and it affects my breathing. When an episode strikes I take 5mg or even 7.5mg and this brings my heart rate down. If I take what is prescribed every day my quality of life is much reduced and it does not stop the episodes completely anyway. My afib is not that symptomatic so I'd rather put up with the episodes than feel rubbish because of drugs every day of my life.
I suppose this is the point for many, myself included. I'm happy to take drugs forever because all the stuff I do take, AF related and other condition related, have no ill mannered side effects on me at all. They slip down the neck and thats it. I might just as well suck up sherbet powder through a liqourice straw. More importantly THEY DO THE JOB. I am taking Warfarin for life too .... I'd rather do that than risk a stroke ...anticoagulants for ever 🙂
I have been using flecainide as a PiP for seven years now and still have very infrequent episodes. Last year, in spite of going through lots of other medical treatment, I only had one episode. I hate to think the amount of flecainide I would have taken over that period instead of the very occasional 200mg which always works within a couple of hours.
Im too am on Nebivolol and although I don't feel like crap I do feel like I don't have any endurance. it seemed to have greatly reduced my energy level. I talked to the DR. and she agreed to allow me to reduce the dosage to 2.5mg. I am going to see how that works and if it does great, if not I will go back on the 5mg. Since on this med I have not had any episodes of AF, that would be fine with me. I still am careful to eat well and exercise, stay hydrated etc all the things we do to stay healthy. But we do want to reduce the pressure on the heart valve.
Rate control drugs do control heart rate, they do not stop AF which is a rhythm disc order and people mostly take drugs such as Flecainide as a PIP, which I did for a time, which can stop AF, until it doesn’t. Heart rate drugs as a PIP I have no experience of nor know of anyone who uses them as such but of course if your AF were triggered by tachycardia in the first place, it could help.
I have used a PIP about 10 times at home and 7 have worked that is a ratio I can live with, I think when it hasn't worked it was down to EXTRA stress and dehydration. I also take 2 x Dronedarone 400mg a day.
Anti-arrhythmic drugs used as PIP can help terminate AF. Rate control drugs help by keeping the heart rate under control during an episode and may have a role in preventing AF starting.
You have just said exactly what I stated, anti-Arrythmia drugs can help stop AF episodes, not heart rate drugs. And until they don’t. Taking a PIP is rarely a permanent solution. Worked for me for about 10 months - I took 300mg Flec within one hour of AF starting and then AF broke through and had no affect, except to give other Arrythmia. Helps some people, for some of the time to stop AF.
My cardio wouldn't give me a PIP so there is that. But I am doing better as I state in another post. Years ago I was on another pressure control medication but had a horrible breakthrough due to stress. Now that I am on medication again after many years I don't want that to happen again. My thought is our bodies get used to the medications and they stop working.
Flecainide worked for me, until it didn’t. Complete freedom from AF for 8 years following ablation. Now I get episodes every year or so but can’t take Flecainide now as I have developed a wide QRS interval. So far they are stopping spontaneously. As ever with AF who knows for the future.
I definitely have triggers for AF. Anything that my body doesn’t like will trigger AF. I have a very difficult diet. I am intolerant to gluten, dairy and soya. If I have any of those, then I will get AF.
Apart from that alcohol, aspartame, caffeine and even caffeine free coffee will trigger AF.
What about Stevia? I've been drinking sparking water with a little electrolytes sweetened with Stevia just for something that seem special. Since w all have to give up so much. Which I don't care about giving anything up that was making me feel bad.
Sitting quietly reading, and for once writing, waiting for an episode to revert to NSR.
Remember all replies are opinions and I have found everyone’s opinion helpful in accepting and understanding my Paroxysmal AF especially the regular responders. It works for me to learn from these experienced people and form opinions and observations of my own:-
1 AF is like the weather and the anxiety in trying to predict or identify triggers can be a trigger in itself for some including me but some have success with it.
2 Controlled AF is keeping the HR down to an acceptable rate while in AF.
3 For some who have a low resting HR when in NSR, daily HR meds would lower their rate too much for most of the time. This is maybe when a PIP HR med would be used just when in AF.
4 For some like myself, taking a regular HR med can stabilise their HR and maybe prevent or reduce the frequency of episodes.
5 A different drug (Anti-arrhythmic) can be prescribed by a consultant to prevent or reduce episodes, again this works for some but not all.
6 A procedure (ablation) can be performed inside the heart by an Electrophysiologist in an attempt to prevent the rogue pulses that cause AF, some are successful and some not.
After two and a half years since diagnosis, I am currently at the point where I’ve been referred from cardiology to electrophysiology to discuss and decide between points 5 and 6.
Some people love to hunt down the trigger but all the evidence I have seen is that there aren't clear triggers for most people, and many things thought of as one, aren't.
I suspect the "trigger" for many is a physical thing in which the heart becomes pulled and stretched in some way that causes it to react by developing a few ectopic beats (i.e. palpitations), and then these set off the AF in prone individuals. It has been shown that the heart can react to being “stretched” by developing palpitations and even AF. This "stretching" of the heart cells can occur for various reasons since the heart is attached to the chest wall and even pressed against by the diaphragm. Seeming triggers from a particular food might just be that the food causes wind or stomach distension and movements that force the diaphragm against the heart, i.e. a physical cause but one that tricks us into thinking that the cause is a food. I think that emotion, too, can make the heart do things that can set off AF; as can a body system that is relaxing ("vagal") or a system that is excited ("adrenergic"). Some think caffeine in coffee can, but the evidence is against that, except for rare over-sensitivity problems.
Too much upper body work can do it for me - moving rocks , setting edging stones ,pushing in stakes , struggling to pull out recalcitrant thistles anything that puts strain on the pectoral muscles. It is very hot here just now above 32° so I am expecting afib to kick off though I am being careful to drink lots. My last episode was definitely caused by dehydration when we were on holiday down south.
Good to hear from you again, Auriculaire. I wondered where you have been. Bending down is not easy for me for some reason setting off mild racing and palpitations easily.
It’s been hot and humid here, too, with an amazing squally rain storm yesterday that gave us over 20mm in a very short time. It’s not my kind of weather but my AF (but not ectopics) is keeping away!
Something has gone wrong with my tablet stopping me from replying , liking or getting notifications for the forum. So if I want to do anything on HU other than read posts I have to do it on my phone I 'm not really a phone person and only use it to WhatsApp family. It lives by the big computer on charge most of the time! It's generally humid here - not a dry beat like down south so gardening can be a very sweaty occupation. We are lucky this year - so far no real heatwaves. I count a real heatwave as temps above 34°. Plus enough rain to keep the garden happy.
I currently have AF. However, before I had it, I had an experience I would like to share with you regarding heart and spices.
I was living in the Coachella Valley when a huge arson fire was set in the surrounding mountains. I have allergies and on my visit to the allergist during this time, I told him my blood pressure had never before been high, and my allergies were bothering me since the fire. I thought it was the burning trees that affected me, but the doctor told me no, it was not the trees, it was the grasses that affected me. I'm 76 years old, by the way.
I researched online and learned several things..
First, the microscopic particulate matter from a fire enters the lungs and some go into the bloodstream, where they mimic the plaque in the blood vessels, causing an increase in blood pressure.
Second, I also learned that Turmeric can lower blood pressure. I tried it, and it WORKED! My blood pressure went down to normal.
Third, many common herbs used in cooking are in the grass family. That seemed to explain why I had difficulty with certain food preparations. I switched from rosemary, thyme, oregano, etc. to seasoning my pasta sauce with a simple mexican salsa without herbs. Now I can enjoy pasta again!!
As for the effects on AFib, can't really say much more than lowering blood pressure is a great start for me.
Very interesting regarding the allergies. here is the northern part of the US we have been dealing with the smoke from the Canadian fires and a lot of people are bothered. I do have turmeric in the form of a supplement rather than just the spice. I take it but not so regularly I am going to pay attention to that. I personally think allergies and food allergies are the culprit for many of us. we just hadn't made the connection.
I couldn't figure out why, when I would eat organic, healthy foods I'd get sicker and sicker. Allergy tests (3 times) showed I am allergic to most foods. DUH!
I've been struggling with allergic reactions to food since 1973. More and more foods began to bother me. I finally found the culprit affecting me. It's sulfate!
They're putting more and more sulfate in several different forms in our foods. It's a preservative and stabilizer. For example, I used to enjoy canned tuna. Then I had a reaction to it. I went to Whole Foods to get some and read the label. SULFATE!
Another hidden form of sulfate is Carrageenan. I used to buy Whole Foods Coconut Milk Drink. I loved it. Then I saw they sell it in packages that need no refrigeration. I tried it and got sick. The labels looked exactly the same. The absolute only difference was the shelf package had Carrageenan, which the refrigerated product did not. I researched Carrageenan and discovered it's made from sea weed that is processed using sulfate. It's used as a stabilizer, preservative and thickener. And you can even find it in heavy whipping cream, among many other things. They don't have to declare that the product has sulfate. They just declare the end product.
Additives in foods - and medicines - are doing a number on my body. I suspect it's bothering a lot of other people who don't know yet.
I have similar issues. Carrageenan is one of them I too stay away from. Obviously wine is a big problem for you also. We have to be our own detectives for sure. I suspect it creates havoc with the nervous system in turn sets off AF.
Carrageenan is awful. Even for people not allergic to sulfate, it's tragic to think that manufacturers can hide something that is well-known to cause a lot of people problems.
Yes it’s all very maddening. I wrote to my legislators in this regard as now they want our FDA to regulate our vitamins. I told them I would hate to think what the FDA will do to our vitamins because after all they messed up our food royally. Ugh!
But a tree next door imported from the family of Eucalyptus eventually flowered showering my place with oil which hit the Hardie Plank cladding and discoloured the white. Covered everywhere and in my roof gutters.
I could hardly talk well, I croaked had green phlegm and needed nasal spray flixonase.
What some of us are allergic too.
I'm also allergic to the leather dyes. I stopped making leather goods which was a shame.
I have found a great improvement in cardiac health since the gastroenterologist treating my IBS prescribed the low-FODMAP diet; he explained the action of the tenth cranial nerve on the heart, particularly in relation to heart rhythm, (but I'll probably be told that is 'just an excuse'!).
Interesting. I did the low FODMAP elimination and reintroduction & maintenance phases during the Covid restrictions, so I gave it 100%. . But I didn’t have AF at that time. I do now. So for me, it’s a kind of null & void hypothesis as far as my experience of AF goes. It helped my digestive issues but that’s it.
I find that my cardiac health is directly linked to the condition of my gastric tract. Some of the 'experts' writing prolifically on here dismiss the link as nonsense. But there is a great deal of research based evidence, and personally and anecdotally I have found that it is so.
I wasn’t aware we had ‘experts’ here, just AF patients sharing sharing their own experiences. AF is a multifactorial condition, like all chronic conditions. Not everyone is the same.
Always report medical misinformation when you see it. Different people will have different ways of self managing and that probably doesn't come under the definition of misinformation even if there is no evidence that what they choose to do for themselves is effective. They are all anecdotes and shouldn’t be taken as advice. The red flags are more likely to be video links to ‘controversial’ figures who promote unfounded claims that potentially cause harm to individuals following their advice. There is a grey area where community members give advice to individuals which is inappropriate. All anyone can do is “what worked for me is …” and that’s about it.
Very nice summery. This sight is a great resource for many of us. I appreciate the discussions. It is like a banquet, take what you need, experiment with yourself and if it works great, if it doesn't then move on. A suggestion of coconut water greatly helped me. However, if it didn't work I would not call it misinformation because it didn't work for me. That is exactly what happened during Covid, similar situations. Certain things worked and others didn't but what the so called experts said worked was all that was allowed to be allowed . Everything else was labeled misinformation. Who decides that? We each must decide for ourselves. Once we decide we will live with the consequences.
No, I wouldn’t describe the suggestion of coconut water to be misinformation. I’ve tried it in the hope of it settling my ectopics but sadly it made no difference. But there’s nothing wrong with drinking coconut water and it won’t do anyone any harm if they do.
Misinformation would be telling people to stop all their prescribed meds and buying someone’s brand of unproven supplements at extortionate prices, for example. That information is potentially harmful, and if someone gets that information from the website or YouTube channel of a “doctor”, they’re not YOUR doctor, and they have no duty of care towards you.
That’s a bit different from an ordinary individual sharing a self help tip that has helped them and these suggestions are almost always benign and unlikely to cause harm, and you won’t be bankrupted by giving it a go.
You have a point but all practitioners and all patients know, no one tells anyone to stop their meds. I don't know anyone or anybody that was doing that. that is not even the point I was making I think people miss the point. so I will leave it at that.
You’d be surprised. I know someone who was advised not to go to her followup appointment at the Breast Unit, and she is at increased risk and her situation needs to be monitored for any changes. I thought she was foolish to cancel that appointment but the “practitioner” said she didn’t need to go, but that’s another issue really. What happens in a one-to-one consultation is a different issue. People need to choose their practitioners wisely as there are good and not-so-good ones.
Thank you for that precise definition. I have never campaigned against vaccinations but I will never take another simply because they made me very ill, as they did a close friend of mine who was in a coma for weeks after their first jab. I do some rehab with her and they still has deficits with balance, cognitive functioning and more.
I believe questions need to be answered about the safety and long term monitoring so I am now questioning the need for continuing the vaccination programme. That is all I see on this forum - people questioning, especially when it provokes an AF episode.
The few drastic cases do tend to make good newspaper copy - sadly, although they make dramatic and sexy headlines, and sell newspapers for the handful of media proprietors, they also frighten vulnerable people into acting dangerously. The pneumonia vaccination (and several others) saved my wife's life - she has MS - but fortunately she uses a wide variety of creditable sources of information to help her manage her condition.
I can identify with this, my daughter has MS and vaccinations have of course saved her life too. Sorry to hear about your wife. My EP recognises there have been cases of AF linked to the vaccine ( though minuscule compared to heart damage from covid). He said that with such an epically huge programme of vaccination there was bound to be some “shrapnel”. There is risk with absolutely everything. Every medication comes with a warning. But I think we should respect the minority who, like myself, belong to that shrapnel group. I have absolutely no time for all the anti-vax rhetoric and populist theories that verge on conspiracy. I continue to take my booster to protect others. But unless we respect people’s personal experiences then we push back scientific interest in careful long term research and open the way for quick and poorly established research to back what people want to believe. There was a time no one believed in chronic fatigue syndrome and lack of listening to personal experience led NICE to recommend worst possible treatment that has only just been removed from the books.
Absolutely. I'm troubled by politicians hijacking personal suffering to strengthen their hypothesis, but that's the nature of politics, and sadly there are an awful lot of political hijackers on this forum!
i love spicy food and have never had an AF episode after eating anything spicy. And I like extreme heat , Alcohol is a massive trigger for me , so I rarely drink, and when I do it's in moderation.
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