Hi everyone, I've made comment a good few times over the years, I have PAF about 3/4 times a year and always at night when having eaten too late in the day which I now try to avoid doing at all costs by not eating after 1700 and it most definitely works for me. But my 'beef' today is related to blood thinners, why am I being coerced into taking Big Pharma chemical stuff (first Warfarin, then Apixaban and now on Edoxaban) when there are natural alternatives that thins blood such as Turmeric, ginger and the one I most want to use...CBD oil, because that will also ease the arthritic pain I have. I'm veggie/vegan, eat loads of veg and stacks of greens as well as taking the pharma stuff and I'd rather come off the chemical stuff and use natural ones instead.... thanks for any info!
Blood thinners...: Hi everyone, I've... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Blood thinners...
For one thing, lack of studies on the alternatives you mention. But depending on your risk factors, you may not need thinners (NOACs) at all. Recently, I was offered daily aspirin as an alternative by a US ep. I understand that would never happen with a UK ep. Different medical culture.
Jim
Agreed re not enough studies being done for alternatives, but why would Big Pharma want alternatives to work!
But to be clear, in no way recommending cbd oil over thinners. Again, no studies.
My stroke risk score is 1 for borderline high blood pressure and I've been on low-dose aspirin the entire time (except for apixaban for a few months since I just had an ablation). According to the AFib book by Dr. John Day, apixaban has a 2% annual risk of life-threatening bleeding. He also says that an active lifestyle could raise that risk. For example, I've a gravel cyclist (bike not motor) and if I ever take a spill, there could be a lot of bleeding, so my risk is probably higher.
I also recently read a study where the stroke risk increases 3X for AFib for burden > 11.4% for people not using anti-coagulants.
I have to say I have been on apixaban for over 5 years now and I do not bleed any more or longer than I did previously. the only time I worry is if I gang my head - bad peripheral vision from macular degeneration means I do this quite often. I exercise regularly, garden and often take a tumble - maybe not like you would on a bike but bad enough. I find just small knocks bruise and skin breaks easier but the actual bleeding has not changed a bit.
The thing with herbal or natural remedies is that we don't know the doses so definitely more work needs to be done as we could easily not have enough of the anticoagulant or too much. Its a great shame that more research isn't done.
I take it you mean anti coagulants? Blood thinners are only used in very rare cases and only administered by injection.
I asked my previous GP this question and he simply told me that natural remedies 'don't work' for AF or associated problems. He could be right but I find it hard to deal with people who totally shut their minds to the possibility of alternative remedies. However, we of course need to always proceed with caution on such vital subjects. We have to also remember that the education of conservative medical treaters doesn't include natural remedies at all - as my new GP later admitted (which we've all known for years of course!): "GPs are pill-pushers'! If you view the YouTube videos by Dr Sanjay Gupta of York Cardiology I think you'll find many fears associated with heart health and conditions will vanish. He's a very knowledgeable UK Consultant Heart Specialist and I personally would prefer to pay him for a consult than any Cardio I've yet consulted with! His videos are however totally free and provide much help and comfort.
Yes, I know of Sanjay Gupta have watched several of his videos, he is terrific, so refreshing to know there are doctors out there there who are prepared to think outside the box....
There really are many doctors, in the UK and US anyway who think outside the box and we mention quite a few of them in my thread - 10 years and little wiser. Unfortunately within health systems they have to work within strict tolerances and guidelines therefore getting to meet them is really difficult but try looking for one that describes themselves as Lifestyle Trained.
I'm in Australia and I don't think we've caught up with the US or UK in this respect yet, unfortunately - it's a battle to even find a GP who will speak to you of 'other things' than scripts for pills. Their minds seem totally closed! At least of late I'm finding they advise patients have a right to refuse what they recommend. I've been openly and very rudely ridiculed by some for being a "Google nut", but I find this is the only way to find out just what is in these medications, the side-effects etc. I consider what I find there life-saving. All many doctors seem to care about is the money they can make.
"Big pharma" (as you call it) is the only way we have to find and prove the effectiveness and safety of the drugs we need. The costs of R&D, then of clinical studies, preclude any other than enormous companies being able to carry out the necessary work.
The main problem with "natural" remedies is, so far as I know, that they can't be easily standardised in dosage since the active ingredients are either unknown or occur in variable quality and quantity in their natural form. Standardised doses are needed to give repeatable, testable and predictable effects.
I am not, myself, so cynical of the pharmaceutical industry, having worked in it for many years, and, although I dearly wish that all R&D and clinical testing could be carried out in independent universities and similar, it seems that it just isn't feasible. It's perhaps the way of the world that we are stuck with the profit-driven models that we have. We can be very grateful to it, nonetheless, as I see things, despite its disadvantages.
Steve
I agree. Personally, although I have a degree of cynicism about drug companies, it’s nowhere near the extent that some express on this forum (I’m not referring to the OP) which often borders on conspiracy theory and who I suspect in unfortunate circumstances would be glad there are medications available to help.
I'm not totally against all drugs produced - antibiotics for one can be life-saving as we all realise; however, to discredit the effectiveness of natural treatments is equally as ignorant as the simple fact is, if you get reliable and tried advice on many of these, they most certainly do work and heal the source, rather than just treat the symptoms, of disease. The money savings that can result also are a great bonus. The thing with alternate remedies is that they take longer and require patience - we've become such a 'quick-fix' generation and the truth is our bodies simply aren't made nor meant to keep ingesting the amount of chemicals or synthetics that are produced today by conveyor belt.
As you so well put it, drugs that heal the "source" are what we all need. Sadly, for many people, the source is an ageing body that is beyond a complete repair or even one mistreated for much of its lifetime by poor diet and lack of exercise; and sometimes, too, one affected by the many autoimmune and inherited disorders that come via our ancestry.
Also, whatever the source of treatment, a multinational's laboratory or a naturopath's dispensary, then some kind of meaningful and reliable evidence is surely needed to prove efficacy and safety.
Steve
Absolutely. I've found many excellent natural remedies from, separately, two very dedicated Australian women skilled in applying poultices, herbal and natural remedies - one named Margaret Wright, daughter of a now deceased Australian Christian minister who having had to minister in remote areas inaccessible to conventional medicine, became very knowledgeable in applying and succeeding in treating with what was available in the plants and even from the earth they lived on. Things such as banana skins, onions, cabbage poultices and others for varous conditions - also epsom salts drench for high blood pressure and give a really restful night's sleep (all of which work, by the way!). Using epsom salts in water to treat burns is remarkable. I now keep a small jar of water saturated with E.S. by the stove to instantly apply to burns - the wounds all heal with NO scar whatsoever (it replaces the magnesium lost through burning). I apply cold tap water first for just a few seconds, and then the E.S. in water. Heals very quickly. E.S. drench can also heal children's bed-wetting! More of these practical and very inexpensive remedies are still obtainable from her small paperback book - currently around $20 if interested. Here's one link to where you can order it online (titled "Practical Home Healing") - steps.org.au/Shop/Health/pr....
The other woman is a very knowledgeable naturopath , Barbara O'Neill, who runs a health retreat in Australia. Her lectures are stacked with great information and home remedies. Here's a link to some of her YouTube lectures - the top video listed, on natural remedies, dated 27.2.2016, is very good indeed. So simple, so effective.
youtube.com/watch?v=YgjzY6c...
I look forward to finding out more from the two links you kindly gave - thank you. You also seem to be blessed with a superior health care system compared with our venerable but creaking NHS.
Steve
You're very welcome. Hope you find something that helps. Margaret Wright is fairly aged now but Barbara is much younger and lectures globally. The remedies are totally safe, and both women have had some amazing results. Both of them have had their local (thankfully humble!) GPs refer patients to them who they themselves were unable to help. So far I've found all their suggestions have provided excellent results and most ingredients needed I already had in my kitchen. Best wishes!
And you may be right about our Health system - but it's starting to get far too restricted since Covid. I don't know much about the U.K.'s health system but feel for Americans with theirs - it must be so hard to get proper and inexpensive health care.
Americans seem to love theirs but only when their insurance covers them! We need a rethink of ours. It seems to have become a lumbering giant that eats money for little return. Years of massive bed reduction programs, closing hospitals, failing to train enough staff, new and always much ultra-expensive scanners and treatments, then Brexit and now covid have all-but brought it to its knees.
Steve
Hi again, Steve. I forgot to add that these ladies are both Christians and at the start of the video lecture prayer is offered. Thought I'd just add that in case you're not 'religious' and may think you're getting into a sermon! It's all regarding health and remedies, I assure you! 😊
There are two types of " blood thinners" - anticoagulants (warfarin and DOACs) which interfere in the clotting system to slow down clotting and anti aggregants or anti platelets which prevent platelets clumping together. Aspirin and Clopidogrel are allopathic anti aggregants. Most natural "blood thinners" are of the anti aggregant type and these are of very limited use in afib as they do not prevent the clots forming in the heart due to the pooling of blood during an afib attack. Nattokinase is believed to have some anticoagulant properties but also clot busting properties so helping to break down clots which have already formed. However any real research on this has been confined to Japan and China and as far as I know there does not seem to be any info about what dose would be ideal in treating afib. On a personal level I had a very mild TIA whilst taking nattokinase but I was taking a low dose. Apart from Warfarin where the amount taken is dosed according to the patient's INR and therefore will be individualised for each patient the DOACs are prescribed on a one size fits all basis which I feel is unsatisfactory.
Nobody can force you into taking a drug -yet ( although certain countries have come to that with their covid vaccine mandates forcing people to choose between a jab and their livlihood) . Nor can anybody prevent you from taking CBD oil for your arthritis pain. You have to decide for yourself in the end how you are going to juggle various health conditions. You have to decide for yourself whether you are going to prioritise dealing with certain daily pain making your life miserable over preventing a stroke that might never happen but might be utterly devastating if it did. This is something I have had to do myself . It isn't easy.
Hi Auriculaire, what dose of nattokinase did you take, i wonder can our inr be taken and affected by i.e natto, i mean could it tell if natto was doing the job.
I can't remember if I was taking 1000fu or 2000fu . It was 4 years ago. I have no idea about the INR.
thank you
I was prescribed Apixaban, which the doctor told me is a vast improvement over Warfarin. I've had no trouble with it - 5mg a.m. and night. Perhaps your doctor will prescribe Apixaban for you? I also take 2.5mg Bisoprolol morning and night plus one Magnesium Bisglycinate capsule at night which really calms the heart and gives an excellent night's sleep. I take two if the fast heart rate or skipped beats start again and so far this seems to be going okay.
I do take Apixaban now . Unfortunately I do have problems with it. I could not tolerate such a high dose of Bisoprolol. I now take a tiny dose of Nebivolol. I take magnesium biglycinate 3 x a day plus taurine.
I totally agree. Having been browbeaten into taking two different noacs resulting in internal bleeding and anemia, I listened to my inner voice and stopped taking them. I have had several medical people giving me the same diatribe which they read from the same script I think.Anyway I take natural treatments, turmeric, ginger and cinnamon and the dentist asked me recently "are you sure you are not on blood thinners" as I bled well after an extraction.
No internal bleeding problems since I stopped taking noacs. One size does not fit all.
Everyone is quick to bash "Big Pharma", until they need a life saving/altering pill. (Retired chemist, 39 years in R&D in "BigPharma".)
Pharma is not interested in " cures". Bad business model. Any one off "cure" would have to be priced in millions in order to get back investment in R&D which would mean they were only available to a few rich people as the sort of socialised medicine systems many Western countries run would not be prepared to pay out huge sums of money for them . Pharma is not interested in health either. Healthy people do not need medicine that has to be taken every day. What gets produced preferentially now is stuff that has to be taken every day for life like antidepressants ,statins ,PPIs and blood pressure pills . Most of these "take every day for ever "pills have side effects that often need to be combated with other pills - very good business. Now the current business model is according to sites like STAT that cover the pharmaceutical industry running out of puff. No new big blockbusters in the pipeline . Hence the interest in mRNA vaccines . An even better business model if they can pull it off - especially if you can give them to kids as well. Soon we'll be told we need a vaccine for all sorts of ailments. As for R&D money -increasing amounts of taxpayer's money is going into this. BioNTech received large amounts of money from the German government to develop their vaccine and ditto Moderna from the NIH . Yet Pfizer wants to increase the price of their vaccine astronomically.
Searching for "cures" is fruitless. Except for surgical interventions, or infectious diseases by bacteria, there are very few, if any "cures" in medicine. But, there are many effective drugs to "control" a situation for the unfortunate people that find themselves in need. I seriously doubt that any reputable practitioner would prescribe-to a healthy and symptom free individual-blood pressure medication, anticoagulants, PPI's, SSRI's or any other pharmaceutical. BigPharma is geared to help UNHEALTHY people, which in many cases they are successful at. "Everyday" pills are needed to control the symptoms of disease, not to cure. That's just a fact of life. Side effects are unfortunate in a few people, but, consider what the "side effects" are from a lifetime of hypertension, GERD, embolic stroke, suicidal ideation, etc., etc. It's always your choice to decline any medicine offered. When it comes to vaccines, there are certain ones that are required (here in the U.S.) for admission to the public school system, and COVID vaccines were required by some for employment. That's a public health issue, not a BigPharma issue. Other vaccines......your choice to take them or not.....but be aware of the possible consequences. If you're 100% healthy, maintain a healthy lifestyle (whatever that is at the moment), then this conversation is superfluous. If you're not healthy or symptom free, there's a chance BigPharma might be able to help you!
Most of the drugs cited above are not necessary to control the conditions for which they are prescribed for many if not most people. These are conditions of lifestyle for many and can be addressed by a change in lifestyle . But it is easier for doctors to prescribe a pill and patients to pop it than address their lifestyle. SSRIs are one of Pharma's bigger scams. Most people who get them prescribed are not depressed - they are unhappy . Unhappiness is part of the human condition and has been medicalised . They do not work any better than placebo for a large proportion of people and it has been known for a couple of decades that there is actually no correlation between low serotonin and depression . Worse it is thought now that the pills themselves can cause low serotonin. And one of their side effects is suicidal ideation . I see you don't include statins . That is an example of healthy people being given a drug they do not need when used for primary prevention.
OK, so hypertension is diagnosed (by you) as faulty lifestyle. OK, so by your standards, the cure is to eat less, eat better, exercise more, lose 50 lbs, sleep better, eliminate stress, no red meat, no grey meat (veal), no fat, lots of vegetables.........in the meantime, sorry about the beating your kidneys, heart and vascular system is currently undergoing, it'll get better........over time. Depression is diagnosed (by you) as general unhappiness. So think happy thoughts, eat better, etc., etc., and the rope burns around your neck will eventually fade. SSRI's do have only a modest to good (not excellent) effect on depression scores-yes they do decrease serotonin levels-in the presynaptic neural junction, which is what they're supposed to do! Suicide ideation-for sure in a limited number of adolescent patients, BUT, keep in mind these patients more than likely had suicidal ideation BEFORE medication, which is why they started medication to begin with! You want to mention statins, let's go! At what point would you consider an elevated level of LDL cholesterol to be of concern? What would you do about it? Dietary changes have been shown to have a minimal effect on serum cholesterol, as the vast majority of cholesterol is manufactured BY THE BODY, and not gotten from ingestion with food. so, ergo, inhibition of innate cholesterol synthesis would be more valuable for LDL control than diet restrictions. The bottom line, it is your choice to avail yourself of pharmaceutical intervention to control abnormal circumstances, or not. Keep in mind that the "alternative medicine" approach is still pharmaceutical intervention, regardless if the product comes from tree bark steeped in hot water or a chemist's laboratory........except the stuff that comes from my lab is more rigorously tested than tree bark, or whatever else.
No need to eliminate meat of any colour or fat. Our ancestors ate both without having to worry about cholesterol or hypertension, My grandmother lived to the age of 98 and probably never came across the word cholesterol in her life and certainly never had it tested and she was a class 1 hypochondriac. What she did not eat was Mc Donalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken ,pizza , shop bought baked goods ( like my mother she did her own baking) endless snacks - ie rubbish made in factories pretending to be food. People have been brainwashed by advertising into thinking this crap is food . They are not taught to cook anymore . They are not taught that it is not possible to be healthy on a diet of highly processed food. The proportion of income spent on food has gradually reduced as people spend more on other things that again advertising and peer pressure convince them they need. As for elevated cholesterol - what is that ? What panels of KOLs who have financial ties to statin manufacturers say it is? Large epidemiological studies done in Scandinavia over the last couple of decades have shown that older people particularly women with so called elevated cholesterol live longer and suffer from less disease including cardiovascular disease than those whose cholesterol ( including LDL ) is below the magic arbitrarily set number. Same for BMI . So no point in lowering it with a statin and risking the nasty side effects. You must be aware that the cholesterol / dietary fat = heart disease hypothesis is only that - a hypothesis and one that is facing growing contention.
I would disagree with your definition of " pharmacetical" from a practical if not a linguistic viewpoint . As I am sure you are aware the pharmaceutical industry evolved as an offshoot of the chemical industry both in Europe and America. The Flexner report of 1910 was instrumental in the reorganisation of American medical education and in reorientation of treatments that favoured emerging pharmaceuticals and deriding traditional herbal medicines. Pharmaceuticals made in labs can be patented. Things that grow wild cannot . As for rigourous testing I am sure that you are aware that major side effects often only become apparent in the post marketing period when the drugs actually get into the bodies of those they are meant for and not the carefully screened RCT participants . Apart that is from the ones that turned up during the "rigorous" testing but were hidden by the manufacturers. As various court cases have shown .
Well, I have enjoyed this "repartee" that we have been having. I honestly appreciate and respect someone who gives it back to me as much as I dish out! (I'm serious, not sarcastic or any other b.s.!). I doubt that we would ever have much to agree upon, but best we agree to disagree. If we should ever have run into each other in a pub somewhere, I think we could have entertained the other folks with our friendly and spirited debate over a pint or two or a cup or two of tea. Here's to intelligent discussion and disagreement! 😀 ☕🍺
Love of lakes? I love your picture. We have some very beautiful lakes here in France but nothing of the size in the US. I have always fancied visiting Lake Tahoe since I saw an oil painting of it by Bierstadt online. Hate beer and don't care for tea. I love coffee but sadly can't drink it anymore . However I still indulge in a glass of good wine!
I've viewed the reports of the 'real' medical specialists and scientists ever since Covid started and Robert Malone gave that extraordinary interview with Joe Rogan on Brighteon! I have no doubt at all that what Robert and his many medical and scientific colleagues have revealed is true, and they have and still are suffering greatly for their efforts to alert the world to. I'm sure you know about this - what they've always claimed and been persecuted for revealing, is now in fact being admitted by doctors and scientists worldwide. All extremely disturbing. I will never allow myself to be vaccinated again by any 'government-approved' mandate! I believe we've now entered a time where in fact it's hard to be able to trust the mere word of doctors anywhere. It's all become SO political and money-driven.
It is easy for those who get on fine with prescription drugs to just take what the doc says and be trusting. If you have been harmed by prescription drugs and then gaslighted by doctors telling you they don't cause these symptoms ( when actually it is in the manufacturer's leaflet that they can) then you tend to get suspicious and start investigating the world of Pharma . Which leads you to reports of criminal trials for scientific fraud and bribing of doctors. And massive fines upon conviction. For all of the major companies . Repeatedly. So why would you trust them?
Exactly!
Thank you so much everyone for responding, I don't doubt for one minute that Big Pharma meds do have a place in this world, it's just that in some areas/conditions there are other more natural ways of dealing with things without being automatically put onto (questionable) chemical and expensive drugs. The good news is that I am now in touch with a bona fide GP who is prepared to think outside the box and and has prescribed for me a routine diet of only natural things to take and others to avoid, some of which I already knew, but the crowning glory is that she has recommended I come off Edoxaban and take a dosage of mint CBD Oil instead....I have to pay for it of course, but I am certainly prepared to give it a go! x
But, without the benefit of repeat MRI scanning or clinical work to show efficacy, how can any of us hope to know that there are no micro-thrombi forming in our heart’s atrial appendages ready to travel to the lungs or brain?
I truly wish there were alternatives to DOACs but the cardiologist who treated me so very well, a well respected clinician at a leading teaching hospital, was certain that they are the only safe way forward.
Steve
Hi Chris,
I don’t take any prescription meds because they mess with my body and brain. I get severely depressed and unmotivated to live a healthy lifestyle. Without them I am quite happy.
There is quite a bit written about by naturopathic cardiologists if you hunt online. Here are a couple older articles.
I admire your considerable effort to remain true to your understanding of the importances of your life, and your decision re anticoagulants.
Perhaps this research won't interest you, but for others with similar reservations about anticoagulants, I want to mention the current research into the use of a PIP approach to anticoagulation, and which could be described as a third alternative to the current "all or nothing" choice ...
news.northwestern.edu/stori...
good article. I was planning on checking with my EP during next week’s 6 week follow up for my 2nd ablation….I had cooked up a similar plan because of my body’s intolerance of the meds.
I use natural methods supervised by a naturopath… and I bought the new Fitbit bit with the heart monitor and AFib notifications. Super pleased with it. You can record an ecg and email it. No extra charges to do so… if I get an AF notification I was planning on using my apixiban….
So far no AF notices. 😁💃
You will be pleased to know that I have read reports on the Forum from members in USA, Australia, and UK who are already using a PIP approach to their anticoagulation, and with the support of their cardiologist/EP.
Of course, as their are no current official guidelines for this practice, the current implementations have differing suggestions re the length of time required to continue anticoagulation after NSR is restored.
Yes. Interesting, I take Apixaban, and seem to tolerate it well. BUT I would much rather not, particularly as I have an active lifestyle, and have had a successful (so far) ablation. Interestingly my EP is potentially amenable to me coming off it at some point, and I will be discussing this in detail at an appointment next week with regard to the rationale, given the general advice around CHADS VASC scores (mine is 2) . I suspect wearable tech may be part of it.
My cardiologist said unless one is over 75, and having longer than 24 hour episodes of a fib he agreed I didn’t need a blood thinner, (anti coagulant) even better is that I take serrapeptase an enzyme that will eat up undigested proteins including blood clots. So for those who say studies aren’t done, well they are not going to be done because big pharma will only fund their poison. Supplement companies don’t have the funding to do so.
Absolutely natural herbs in various forms as well as nato, garlic, ginger etc work. Taking them often enough and backing down from them when your body tells you. Lots and lots of research is the key first! Plus you must do all you can to keep yourself free from any comorbidities (which some doctors believe is actually these along with afib that cause the stroke not afib) and exercise and eat right. God blessings in your quest!!
What an interesting discussion! As someone who eats 2 brazil nuts daily for the selenium (to help ward off depression) my first instinct on being diagnosed with AF was to order a large pack of hawthorn berries for their alledged "blood thinning" properties. After a day or two researching the topic of alternatives to standard anticoagulants I discovered the scientific research in relation to AF and stroke was as expected - negligible. My respect goes out to all scientists who spend their lives helping keep us alive and enjoying a better quality of life. They do so in a highly commercialised world which to my mind is not ideal, not least because its an unfair system. But its the world we live in. And in this imperfect world I'm taking the advice of my newly found EP because he's just a tiny bit more skilled than me in all things to do with heart arrhythmia and it's risks! I treasure those skills and am happy to take an imperfect drug - edoxaban, and hopefully not take up a hospital bed in the future that could benefit others. The hawthorn berries, by the way, are unopened in the free basket of my local wholefood store!
I am not a doctor , BUT I was diagnosed with A fib 13 years ago .I was told that an Ablation would NOT help me but they could use drugs to keep me in Sinus rythum . " Dont you want to live another 12 years"? I was asked !!Followed their advise but slowly had full time A-Fib . researched ablations , new procedures , doctors with the best track records with this operation and decided to have it done ! it has been just under 2 years now and I havent felt this good in 20 years ( knock on wood ) Research and dont believe Doctors are all created equal ! ( or know ALL )
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