Results of Exercise Before Bed Afib Experiment- Plus idea about 'Afib Citizen Science Projects' for forum members

[OzRob]

I started a post 16 days ago about exercise before bed and Afib, see healthunlocked.com/afassoci...

I thought I would start a new post here so more people may benefit from my observations which are very interesting.

Below are the results so far regarding my experiment For those that don't know, I suffer from Vagal Afib and get Afib most nights when laying down to go to sleep, I also get Afib whilst sleeping.

I do not take any medications (I do have flecainide on hand just in case I can't control the Afib at night and am exhausted).

I now use an exercise bike nightly, starting at about 70bpm I get my HR up to 115bpm (45bpm more than the resting HR) and then lay down to sleep within 10 minutes.

Results to date:

1. Take note, I was frequently getting Afib as soon as lying down for sleep. Since exercising on the bike I have not had Afib once as soon as I lay down. So this is something that I will continue doing.

2. I wear a monitor to record 17 heart conditions from ectopics through to Afib while sleeping. My Afib burden during sleep is also now much lower since starting with the exercise. I am sleeping through almost all nights.

I now get Afib 2 or 3 times through the night, sometimes only lasting 20 seconds, with the maximum of about 15 minutes, always resolving whilst asleep.

3. I do seem to have a lot of PVC's and Pac's during sleep on some nights, not sure if the exercise is stopping the ectopics converting to Afib. A question for when I next see my cardiologist.

4. Last night I went to bed at 10:00pm and got up to go to urinate at 12:14, as soon as I lay down again at 12:16pm I was in Afib at 131bpm. So laying down at any stage seems to always start my Afib

I tried Valsalva maneuvers for 6 minutes unsuccessfully so I jumped on the bike at 12:23pm.

Now this is very interesting:-

At 12:29pm I stopped the exercise at 181bpm as I was getting a little worried I was in Afib and the bike was not helping. (I have jumped on the bike in the middle of the night only once before with Afib at 120bpm and watched it drop immediately to 70bpm before rising to 115bpm through exercise where it was then resolved for the rest of the night)

I checked my results from my monitor this morning and from 12:24pm to 12:33pm I did not have Afib when I thought I still did whilst on the bike.

At 181bpm I was 50bpm over the starting rate of131bpm, so similar increase to normal exercise before bed.

So the Afib did stop even though my HR was quite high.

My results also showed that I had Afib for about 20 seconds at12:37pm, then nothing all night.

What this all indicates is that a Vagal Afibber like myself can use exercise before bed as well as during the night to resolve my Afib, even with a high heart rate.

Hopefully other Vagal Afibbers who find this interesting will try my experiment and report back here to confirm my results.

A SIDE NOTE:

What this community lacks is the ability to conduct Citizen Science Projects such as my little experiment. What do people think a website just for us where we can conduct projects about our Afib where we can poll members and record results? Just a thought... I can create the website.

[CDreamer]

My thoughts - Interesting idea. With what aims and objectives? Just for Vagal? Just for exercise? Presumably it would not involve cost otherwise you wouldn’t be able to signpost people to it from HU.

[OzRob in reply to CDreamer]

Any type of trial members wish to conduct. Vagal or otherwise. Could even be historical data polled of existing members to build a database of what works and what doesn't work.

No profit for the medical profession to conduct such studies, this is why Citizen Science would suit a problem like Afib. I have come across one such project for Afib but it is not tapping into a member forum.

Cost would be nothing to members, if it became something of substance then we could incorporate a donation button if it had and real expenses.

I have invested in a range of devices and equipment to learn more about my Afib, a website is almost nothing to develop in comparison.

[GrannyE]

always interesting to hear what works for some people and conversely what brings it on.

[jeanjeannie50]

Very interesting, I'm feeling sorry now that I gave my exercise bike away. May have to look for a small one. I wonder if running on the spot could do the same thing, or any strenuous exercise?

[OzRob in reply to jeanjeannie50]

We have a beach house 1 hours drive from home and last Thursday we went down for the weekend. I was quite apprehensive as I could not take the bike down due to space.

I just jogged on the spot on the bathroom mat in the spare bathroom, it took a few minutes more than when on the bike but I got up to 115bpm fine.

[jeanjeannie50 in reply to OzRob]

Thanks for that info.

[Bawdy in reply to jeanjeannie50]

OMG, Riding a bike in the middle of the night, is this all tongue in cheek. Running on the spot, yep, to get to the loo in time. Flabagasted to be honest, I'm way too old for this forum. Good luck all.

[jeanjeannie50 in reply to Bawdy]

If it meant getting rid of AF after 5-10 minutes, wouldn't you give it a go on a static exercise bike? Come on you're not that old, live and learn. 😁

[Bawdy in reply to jeanjeannie50]

I get it but I'm not like a lot of you that have this awful AF problem . My husband has it and it sure restricts him , he is paf so thank God he doesn't suffer like that. My arthritis keeps me off the bike and my heart problems seem to be much better since my ablation. I'm lucky. All the best.

[LaceyLady in reply to jeanjeannie50]

if you have an ordinary bike have a look for a support that lets you cycle indoors, I’m sure my podiatrist has this in his waiting room, it is in his home.

[KiwiBlake]

Really interesting experiment Ozrob, I think you are definitely onto something. Numerous online publications report that Vagal AF occurs at rest, after meals or during sleep, with people with structurally normal hearts. Vagal AF commonly stops in the morning or during periods of excercise.

Can be more common in endurance athletes, cyclists, marathon runners.

Stimulation of the vagus nervous system can inhibit pancreas insulin secretion thereby raising blood glucose levels. I therefore think you having a session on the exercise bike is burning off some of your excess blood glucose levels.

Can I ask typically what time do you eat at night, and do you snack before going to bed? Maybe next part of your experiment you should try different meal times. E.g. if you ate 1 hours earlier than normal, hoped on your exercise bike just before bed, and compared that with eating 1 hour later and hoping on the excerise bike. My gut feeling (no pun intended) is that a longer fasting time would reduce the liklihood of AF in your sleep. Common knowledge that going to bed on a full stomach is a risk factor.

Also have you tried various lengths and intensity of the work rate on the exercise bike.

You've got my vote for the citizens science idea.

Blake

[OzRob in reply to KiwiBlake]

Hi Blake,

I have a few beers from 5pm onwards every day because I live for Tropical Far North Queensland and it gets pretty hot at times, also Sanjay Gupta from York Cardiology mentions that beer does not appear to bring on Afib, so I have listened to this advice!

I eat between 7:30 and 8:00pm, and I do drink red wine every night (white wine brings on Afib for me). I also have a few pieces of dark chocolate, again Sanjay Gupta says dark chocolate could be good for Afib sufferers.

I tend to go to bed between 10:30 and 11:00pm.

My theory why the bike ride works is because at night your Vagus nerve goes into the rest and digest phase and your heart rate lowers. When I lay down this lower heart rate brings on Afib, therefore exercise immediately before bed gets you out of the rest and digest phase and resets the entire system.

Last night I only had Afib once while asleep, for about 15 seconds, but I had 2,500 PAC events during the night. Premature Supraventricular Contractions where you get 1 to 3 normal heartbeats and then you get an early heartbeat.

I did have the Moderna Bivalent combined Covid booster 3 days ago and this may be a factor also for the increase in ectopics.

[Mouchkin in reply to OzRob]

I can’t take white wine either ..it is very noticeable if I do. Red is fine.

[LaceyLady in reply to OzRob]

try eating an hour earlier in evening. Heavy/main meal can take longer to digest.

[ChasMartin]

So I have a question for you since you said you had AF the moment you laid down at one point in your experiment. I have had instances where I would have AF lying down, that would immediately revert to NSR if I sat up, then go right back into AF when I lie back down, over and over. Have you experienced anything like this?

[OzRob in reply to ChasMartin]

Yes, I have done that also. However not that often, it only really works if I sit up again immediately, however on lying down again it starts the Afb again.

You sound like a perfect candidate to try my little experiment.

[LaceyLady in reply to OzRob]

if laying down brings it on and sitting up stops it, sounds a bit like the Valsalva Manoeuvre

[ChasMartin in reply to LaceyLady]

Perhaps, but I have found the various maneuvers themselves do nothing for me.

I've also had instances where a finished bowel movement immediately resolved a recently started AF episode, seeming that the lead up to the bowel movement itself was the cause of the AF starting in the first place.

[secondtry]

Citizen science project.....I'm in. We have I believe 20,000 members and I think it important we keep searching for clues to improve quality of life, particularly where the medics fear to tread!

Re stop/starting AF..... my experience suggests for Vagal AFibbers the same actions can both stop and start AF. I found a cold drink started an episode and on another occasion stopped it.

Also my pet theory is AF can be frequent for some due to a build up of lifestyle choices. I would try eating earlier & lighter, reduce alcohol in the evening and eat choc/caffeine before 1pm.

[OzRob in reply to secondtry]

I will soon investigate the best method of setting up a polling website that will suit us. I also would not stop at just this forum to attract participants. As to potential research projects I will start with my exercise experiment as the first project.

[Mouchkin]

Thank you so much for writing this up for us.

[Blondie12345]

Many thanks for sharing your post. I do have very similar symptoms. Somebody wants commented on my post here, and they mention that when the heart rate is elevated such as during exercise, the flutter cannot be felt the same.

exactly the same as you once the heart rate is elevated you can’t feel it The same

[Jetcat]

very interesting rob. Iv got my beady eyes on my wife’s Exercise bike already.👍

[AFCyclist]

I have used getting on my bike at least 100 times over the past 10 years to get me back to NSR. It is my "go to" solution. Also had 5 cardioversions when it has not worked. Use it normaly the next morning if AF has started in the evening. Lying down does not cause my AF to start but it normally starts when I am at rest after a trigger event eg, stress, alcohol, overdoing the exercise etc.

[BigDunc]

Hi Rob

I have had AF for over 15 years and have had 2 Ablations that never worked for me but kept it under control with Flecainide. I had to discontinue with Flecainide due to discovery of some mild heart disease.

Post Flecainide I was very similar to yourself going into AF every 1-2 weeks always at night. I was convinced it was Vagal AF as I’ve always been a bit of a fitness fanatic. Discussed with my EP and he suggested I use a drug called Disopyramide. Since using I’ve been free of AF for around 12months. It’s not without side effects but better than going in and out of AF all the time. Hope this helps

[secondtry in reply to BigDunc]

Hi Dunc, could you give us the heads-up on the side effects as I may need to use that drug in the future?

[BigDunc in reply to secondtry]

Hi the main side issues are the anticholorgenic side effects that seem to affect me are - dry mouth, dry eyes, itchy skin and my exercise tolerance has diminished somewhat. As hard as I try I struggle to get my HR above 92BPM although I still do a lot off walking and use my exercise equipment daily my Rowing machine and exercise bike. Although not to the same intensity.

However still better than going in and out of AF all the time. I can even have a few beers and the odd Whiskey now although it does tend to make you quite tired,

Hope this helps

[secondtry in reply to BigDunc]

Thanks Dunc, hope your quality of life is on the up!

[Jajarunner]

Oh, I love this. My afib episodes always come on when asleep and I've never been able to self resolve them with any of the typical valsalva manoeuvres. My afib heart rate is 130-195 and I feel so terrible I'm not sure I'd dare try cycling! But it's great if it works for you. The citizen science project sounds brilliant too.

Thank you for sharing this ☺️

[Jajarunner]

A question for you, OzRob, what HR monitor do you use to track your heart rate at night? I have a Garmin wrist monitor but it doesn't work for me (it's the second one I have had, Garmin already replaced the original for same reason!).

[LaceyLady in reply to Jajarunner]

I’ve an Apple Watch, top of the range and was sceptical but liking it.

[OzRob in reply to Jajarunner]

Hi Jajarunner,

I use a Wellue monitor, I bought it direct out of China as it was cheaper. I think it may be also on Amazon. getwellue.com/products/hear...

[Jajarunner in reply to OzRob]

Is it the single lead $300 one? Looks amazing!

[OzRob in reply to Jajarunner]

Yes, I am really happy with it and my usual cardiologist was very impressed. It has given me a level of control over my Afib that I did not have before as now I know exactly what is happening. I sometimes wear it when I am working.

[Joe39]

This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. What heart rate monitor are you using? I had almost a month of AF every night but following several lifestyle changes and have been free since July 26th (also the same day I had my first Chiropractic adjustment).

I use an Apple watch which doesn't do 24/7 monitoring. Your monitor sounds much more comprehensive and I'd like to see if I'm experiencing any short AF episodes at night or other times during the day the apple watch may be missing.

[OzRob in reply to Joe39]

Hi Joe39,

I use a Wellue monitor, I bought it direct out of China as it was cheaper. I think it may be also on Amazon. getwellue.com/products/hear...

[Joe39 in reply to OzRob]

Thank you!

[Janna24]

Hello , i am happy to hear exercise is helping you !!! Well done Please , can i ask what night monitor you wearing . And where did you buy it . Many thanks

Janna

[OzRob in reply to Janna24]

I use a Wellue monitor, I bought it direct out of China as it was cheaper. I think it may be also on Amazon. getwellue.com/products/hear...

[Janna24 in reply to OzRob]

Thank you !!!

[CliveP]

Fascinating stuff Rob.

Reading the replies I’m struck by the replies from people who have the opportunity to exercise but don’t. Someone actually gave awsy an exercise bike!

There are few things more beneficial to the human body than exercise. Vigorous exercise is spectacularly good for you. (In appropriate doses)

Interval sessions have been prescribed for people with almost total heart failure. The result? They improved significantly.

Exercise is medicine!

[LaceyLady in reply to CliveP]

I swim for 20-30 minutes and do aqua exercises for about 40 minutes 3x week

[12Potter]

Lots good info from this post thank you. I’m not showing AF since ablation 7 wks ago but have now got high heart rate episodes taccy cardia that started when lying down to bed! Sadly now at other times but have been looking at vagal - keep posting please!

[Tomred]

hi ozrob good to see you been proactive in trying to lessen afib and not been totally reliant on meds ,i hope this keeps working for you and you even find ways for improvement, i know a guy who when he goes into afib he goes for a long long run ,gets his heart rate way up there and maybe past afib rate and then when he stops running the heart has settled into normal rhtyhm.

[iris1205]

great idea

Always personal to each - but a variety of experiences could inform us all !

Bravo Rob

[hhenk]

Hi Ozrob, it sound familiair.

After 2 ablation, a minimaze and 7 days ago a third ablation, i just came home half an hour ago from a 10 km bicycletour to stop an afib attack. I did this already many times last years to try to stop an attack which happens 95% of the times. Also walking up a hill works for me. There is also a link with my digestion but i can not control it unfortunately.

Greetings from the Netherlands.

[Hidden]

I can remember a guy (Julien, I think), who posted about it some years ago, that he would be able to revert from AF after 10 minutes of intense bicycle ride, on the regular basis.

[Spud12345]

wow great information. Have you ever had an ablation ?

[OzRob in reply to Spud12345]

No, have not had an ablation. I have had Afib for about 17 months now. It was only about 4 months ago after a bad cold and then covid where it became a nightly thing, that is when I was put on meds. Flecainide and Metoprolol, the Metoprolol was terrible so I stopped after about 10 days which is about when I discovered how to turn off Afib with a Valsalva Maneuver. Since then I have been on a mission to try things without the drugs.

[Spud12345 in reply to OzRob]

I have had one ablation and started on flecainide and metoprolol. I think mine is vagal at night and started to wonder if a low heart rate from the metoprolol set off the arrhythmias which flecainide turns into a flutter. Trying the biking and stopping the 12.5 metoprolol

[OzRob in reply to Spud12345]

Let me know how you go with it. Do you have a monitor?

[Spud12345 in reply to OzRob]

I have an Apple watch

[OzRob in reply to Spud12345]

I am assuming you can set that so you can see your heart rate increase as you exercise to be able to stop at 115bpm.

[Molasses]

OzRob, thank you for your post. What heart monitor do you wear?

[OzRob in reply to Molasses]

I use a Wellue monitor, I bought it direct out of China as it was cheaper. It is branded 'CHECKME' but is the same product and has Wellue on the reports it produces.

I think it may be also on Amazon. Here is the link from Wellue getwellue.com/products/hear...

Below is a screenshot of a 1 minute recording, you can see normal beats and then the premature beats following are PAC's. The device is brilliant and allows me to do a lot of analysis each morning after wearing it, I am no ECG expert but I am learning a little more each day.

PAC's

[Molasses in reply to OzRob]

OzRob, I truly appreciate your giving us this information about your monitor. Our best to you.

[Peacefulneedshelp]

how does one know if their Afib is Vagal?

[OzRob in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

Read this article richardbogle.com/blog/vagal...

And watch this video. youtu.be/ivof8UUKW3M(Not working as expected?)

[jeanjeannie50 in reply to OzRob]

An information packed presentation Rob, thank you for posting.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to OzRob]

I watched several of his videos very informative. More so than any doctor I have ever had.

[Peacefulneedshelp]

I have a question on this. Do you think the exercise lowered your blood pressure and that is the factors that controls the Afib?

[OzRob in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

I don't believe so.

My belief is when the Vagus Nerve is in the rest and digest phase, where everything is slowing down, laying down tips the scales just enough for additional electrical impulses to start firing in the Atria.

For some people this may happen after a large meal when they are on the couch watching TV.

Exercise disrupts the process so the heart has been brought out of the rest and digest phase before lying down.

I hope by setting up a Citizen Science Project for Afib, we as members can participate in projects so we can compare results. And those results will be available for new members or anyone interested in Afib.

For example we may have a project for people that get Afib after a meal at night. The project may have criteria where participates must have a suitable monitor, they must log when and what they ate and drank, plus log HR and when they start exercise , going to bed etc etc.

All done online a bit like an online survey.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to OzRob]

I recently have had my BP spike and I don’t know why. My regular dr just prescribed a beta blocker called Antivert. when I checked the side effects one of them is it can cause heart failure. She, the dr. Said she wanted my resting heart rate at 55. Which seems at odds with what you are describing. You are suggesting, and I believe you, that the heart needs to stay in rhythm by raising the BPM not lowering them. My resting heart rate is around 64 which I always thought that was good. The carediolist I saw recently wasn’t concerned at all about my BP or my resting heart rate. I am going to call the cardiologist ASAP and see what his opinion is on the BP medicine. Why would I want to take something that can cause heart failure? Just wondering.

[OzRob in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

What I am doing is raising my HR for a very short time which then lowers back to NSR.

[ChasMartin in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

The only Antivert I know of is not a beta blocker, but rather an antihistamine for vertigo. Confused.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to ChasMartin]

You’re right I posted the wrong medication. I should have posted nebivolol. I did find out the results of my echo and I do have a leaking (slightly) nitro valve and the diastolic area stiffening. But the muscle itself has no damage.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to OzRob]

Thank you so much for the info and video. Years ago I was told that my AF was an imbalance of the nervous system. So to me that would be Vagal. If I understand the paper and video you shared, a beta blocker that my GP just tonight prescribed for me would make me worse. Ugh! I definitely am calling the cardiologist however, I am not sure what they need to do for the higher BP.

[Tux18]

I would be interested in Citizen Project . Sounds like worthwhile plan. Thanks for sharing your experience.