Yesterday I had a "formal" meeting with my manager.
I had had three times off two of one day and one of half shift.
But, also really bad chest infection for four days.
So yes it triggered a formal meeting.
I was with my union rep....useless!
At the end of a quite friendly meeting...!!!!
I was warned, that I MUST NOT be off sick for any reason for the next year. Or I will trigger another formal.
Is AF not a reason?
I did work half a shift with AF, but it was uncomfortable. I was scared. I went home with permission. As my manager told me to go home.
I'm worried that in this next year (hopefully I will retire. I am 64 now and awaiting my state pension!) I have to keep well not only with AF ,but other problems we all have.
I work for the NHS great isn't it!
Written by
gwyn53
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It sounds to me like they could be breaking employment law. Check your contract of employment to see what it says about time off for I’ll health. I was lucky & they gave me 6 months on full pay & then extended it for a further6 months.
Most companies have a trigger point, where the manager is told to hold a formal review. There are two purposes. One is to frighten skivers into a proper work routine without recourse to the disciplinary procedure. The second and most important is to identify any adjustments that can be made to mitigate the effects of genuine illness. Companies spend a lot of money on the recruitment and training of staff and are not looking to sack them. However, in big organisations like the NHS, HR departments also publish departmental absences and mangaers are pushed to reduce them. Some managers overreact, and take the view that the return to work interview is part of the disciplinary process.
Your review did not seem particularly sympathetic, your manager should have asked whether your illness is continuing and what adjustments should be made. He/she was quite correct to say that any further absence would result in a "formal" because that is what is in your sickness management protocol, but it should be to check ongoing arrangements, not the first point in a process of moving you out of the door.
Not an expert in employment law but escalation to formal warnings are usually preceded by an informal process in accordance with your contract of employment. If this has not happened, ask your rep to help you to appeal. If it has proceded in accordance with your contract and if you have reached the trigger points and you are close to retirement; is there any way to seek early retirement on medical grounds? You will still have to wait for your state pension but could access your NHS pension.
I have heard SO many reports of NHS workers being treated like this - please take this further with your Human Resources department. I am pretty sure that AF can be classed as a disability. Your manager is sticking to protocol rather than making reasonable adjustments.
All too often one is dealing with middle managers who are doing the bidding of someone further up the food chain. My experience of unions ( though not NHS ) is that they are fff...ing useless.
In these circumstances it's wise to take someone with you into any meetings, some organisations allow you to take a work mate in place of the union rep. Keep calm and keep notes listen very hard to what they say and say as little as possible yourself apart from the essential facts. Otherwise be friendly and co operative. Easy advice to give...not so easy to do.
I agree with a1anx when he says, keep calm, listen carefully, take notes, or better yet have someone with you who can because absorbing information accurately is very difficult when one is stressed. The job of your Union Rep is to help you to understand what contract rules you are breaking (if any) and then negotiate a solution to the problem and if he's not doing that perhaps you could request a different rep. Good luck!!
I'm clinical in the NHS too, and have the AF and osteoarthritis as underlying health conditions. It is my understanding through union representation that they have to be very careful not to discriminate against underlying health conditions. It is also very difficult for them to demonstrate your level of sickness is "unsustainable" and therefore dismiss you on health grounds without getting into trouble.
I was quite lucky having a good RCN rep, who has supported me even with the AF ongoing.
Excellent. Don't confuse "formal" health return to work interviews with "formal" disciplinary procedure - they are NOT the same. To remove someone from service due to health issues is a completely different (and far more precise) procedure than the normal disciplinary / grievance procedure. Having had significant NHS experience (both myself and my daughter), this heavy handed approach is not unusual. If it goes any further, talk to your regional union (not local) rep, as they are usually much more clued up. Most of all, don't worry!
Yes it was a second formal, again due to three things.
1 two times of AF, one I'd gone to work but half way through shift real!y felt unwell.
2, an accident at work. Which now has been removed from the triggers. Again she knew nothing about it. But she actually e mailed me along with a supervisor to which she refuses to admit she actually e mailed me about!.
3 At a time when my husband had been diagnosed with terminal cancer I just went a little I'll. But he is doing ok. Chemo, has shrunk the nasty thing sadly it's inoperable. But she made me feel very silly over feeling depressed.
She has never been helpful and all paperwork required has funnily enough disappeared.
I retire next year. I will be happy to say goodbye to her.
She did say I have no right ( her words) to take time off for one year. Ha! I hope so too. Thanks
The problem for employers is that if they do not follow the same rules for everybody then they could be accused of favouritism by others. Blame the skivers for all this not the employers. What you have described all sounds quite normal for any employer not just the poor old much maligned NHS. Out of interest my wife is a carer and is always being asked to work extra hours thanks to staff not turning up to work even with zero hours contracts. It is always the youngsters as the more mature people have such a better work ethic but the management are tearing their hair out as they have these people on the books that they can't sack yet who are non productive.
My advice is as from others-- is to see you OH department and discuss your needs and those of the business to find a compromise. You may need a doctor's report but that shouldn't be a problem.
As a manager I performed sick absence procedures for a national company : the interviewer should have asked if you had any mitigating circumstances you wanted taking into consideration. Well I'm of the understanding AF is usually triggered (not always) by stress. Stress in the workplace must be handled differently to any other absence. Consider that if you have to be interviewed again. Most stage one absence procedures don't have an appeals process either.
You are right AF can be triggered by stress but it is not a stress issue. It is a disease of the heart caused by poor electrical function. I found that most of my stress was caused by the AF and not the other way around. I went through several sickness absence hearings and luckily my boss and employer were a lot more sympathetic than those of gwyn53 sound.
I echo the comments about the referral to OH and glad that you have made contact. If you are covered under the disability act , which you are likely to be, you get additional sick days whereby it does not trigger the formal process at the same point.
I work for local gov and we have the some trigger points 3 episodes and or more than 6 days in 12 months.
I had an ablation in July took 3 weeks off and then returned on a couple of hours a day building to full time, all done through OH with a supportive manager. Sounds like your manager is doing their job but without any human element or following the correct process for someone with your health needs.
I am a manager and there is a balance because I've been in a few battles where I don't want people to be on formal notification but HR have stepped in and told me I'm not following process!!
Good luck with OH, AF is so unpredictable and you need someone to have an understanding so you are not to worried about going home if you are in an episode. Ironic that you work for the NHS!!!!
I have worked in both the private and public sectors and the very worst employer was the NHS. I never had any trouble with anyone else. Go and speak to your HR department (if they have any trained HR staff!) because I am HR trained and was able to point out to them that they were breaching employment law in the way they were treating my health problem. If you don't get anywhere with HR then speak to the Citizens Advice legal advisor and/or the hospital almoner if there is one attached to the hospital that diagnosed/treated you. Anne
I'm 64 too so I know what it's like having to wait for your pension!
I had a couple of formals when I was at work. Time off due to fibromyalgia. My manager was great, she knew that if I was off it was because I couldn't push it any longer. But the council ,employer, wasn't so kind. They made me feel like a useless layabout. I was "encouraged" to take redundancy in the approaching reshuffle. I was lucky, I got more of a payout than expected! Pension is still eagerly awaited!!!!!!!!!
Keep your chin up, as my mum always said, and stick to your guns. Don't let them pussh you about.
You are covered by the current Disability Act as AF counts as a long term condition. I know this as I went through exactly the same process when I had time off because of AF. I triggered several formal hearings as I was prone to frequent attacks.
You have rights under the Disability Act and you union should be able to help you identify these.
How terribly you have been treated. I also work for the NHS and have NOT encountered this. I have been admitted to hospital 7 times this year and off work for each admission. I was advised by the consultant I see in Occ Health that because Disability Legislation applies to me and my periods of illness have all been for the same reason /disability (as documented on each OH report) my triggers for absences from work are reduced. Therefore, I cannot be referred to the formal route as readily. Employers have to be careful about constructive dismissal. I think it is disgusting and outrageous how your manager has treated you. Would you consider a formal harassment complaint? I would also bypass the Unions and contact an employment solicitor to bring with you to every appointment/formal meeting from now on if you do not feel safe and protected in your work place. Your manager must either be very inexperienced and unfamiliar with protocols and procedures or else is a nasty piece of work. Wishing you the very best and so sorry to hear of everything you have been through. Please keep us posted xx
Hi I'm in same boat NHS staff nurse been off sick 3 times in 10 months had a meeting with boss referred to occ health and its gone in my favour as I had AF / then stroke and doctor said I'm covered by disability act ? And sickness was part of my illness.it sucks we can't help being ill and they make you feel like a criminal!!! Take care and good luck 😉 x
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