Hello, I looked up what we pee out during/after AF...

[Boombiddy]

Hiya,

I hope this is not old news for you seasoned AFers and info overload for newbies but here goes...

I was trying to find out about what we pee out and why, during/after AF, and I found a really good article which mentioned what this is, at

americannursetoday.com/quel...

which is a very readable document, not too basic and not overly technical language.

The thing is atrial natriuretic peptide, and here's the Wikipedia article.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atr...

Two of the things it does are, bring down BP, and dilate blood vessels.

Speaking for myself, to lower my already chronically low BP and further dilate my (stretchy) Ehlers Danlos veins, is counter-productive. Especially in the night when BP & heart rate are (theoretically ie 'normally') lower, as bisoprolol has brought my daytime heart rate to (generally) about 47 to 53 (apart from the bouts of postural & orthostatic tachycardia).

Very glad it would help those with hypertension though.

Anyway I think this is all fascinating and enlightening. Please I would welcome being told if this is old news or junk info, (I know you would do it kindly), as I don't want to clutter the place up.

I would also be very glad if anyone can tell us more about this.

Ps: healthunlocked appears to have added two tags, heroin and bisoprolol. I can't get rid of them, so just to let you know, this post is about neither.

[Finvola]

Yes Boombiddy ANP is the chemical released by the stressed heart to flush the body of salt and the way it does that is to release enough water to fill all the toilets in the area, so your articles are spot on, I think.

Can't help with your two tags as neither combination of letters is in your post.

[Boombiddy in reply to Finvola]

Thanks Finvola .

Just to let everybody know, I have emailed Help re the tags thing, so don't worry about trying to answer that.

[Boombiddy in reply to Boombiddy]

I suppose my enquiry about this was because I wanted to know, does anybody notice anything different about this AF wee such as colour or odour?

I know, icky! Sorry.

Just wanted to be able to tell if it was AF wee or normal, to keep track of/make sense of symptoms.

Since I am asking others to answer this question I suppose I must confess I knew there was a change sometimes in this last year especially. (Before this last 12 months rare, now occasional). Tom cats smell! Like the smell of tomato leaves/blackcurrants/bad fake lavender.

(Just occasionally and not associated with dehydration).

I am trying to sort out what's from AF, and what's from my problems with mast cell activation, and this symptom could be said to coincide with both of these increasing this year.

So there it is. I do apologise if it is awkward to ask for this info in public.

But I had looked it up for ages and found no answers.

Observing this would, I hope, help with management.

Even a yes or no answer might be helpful.

Thanks for making it to here.

[Hidden in reply to Boombiddy]

Boombiddy when I pass abnormal quantities of water when AF starts up it is very pale, clear and odourless.

Sandra

[Finvola in reply to Hidden]

Identical to my experiences too. Every 15 to 20 minutes - but I cannot compare that type of weeing with what might be experienced with mast cell problems Boombiddy .

[Boombiddy in reply to Finvola]

Thanks Finvola , that is enlightening but sounds rotten for you. Yes I've also tried to find out from the Mast Cell people and get this sorted, but alas nothing conclusive.

[Hilaryjm in reply to Hidden]

I always know if I'm in for a long episode as I pee gallons in the first hour, but it then settles down. If I have a short episode (2 hours ish) or more of a flutter than a bird trying to escape, the peeing is normal. And yes AF peeing for me is pale and doesn't appear to have a particular odour.

[Hidden in reply to Boombiddy]

Hello Boombiddy I have just seen your post. I suffer from constant peeing when in AF it usually last for me hours, mostly it will happen at night meaning I get no sleep as I need to go every ten minuets, yes it is that bad . My EP called it polyuria and told me that it is quiet common in AF sufferers and seems to think it poses no concern,although not everyone is blighted by this when in AF. As for the colour it is colourless with no smell the best way that I can describe it is the colour of apple juice if that. As for me when it happens it makes me feel weak and of cause very tired. If I have an ablation I will have to have a catheter I have been told this, however twenty four hours after the event I am back to normal as if nothing has ever happened, it is to say the least a very strange phenomenon and one that I would like to be rid off.

Barbara

[Boombiddy in reply to Hidden]

Hidden thankyou for answering. Peeing every 10 when you most need the sleep sounds rubbish. I am amazed you stay hydrated! Do you keep water nearby?

[Hidden in reply to Boombiddy]

Hello Boombiddy, the answer is no I do not get dehydrated surprisingly with the polyuria. It is different to loosing vital fluids however I do drink a lot throughout the day normally, water and coconut water, no alcohol as that affects me or tea and coffee and my diet is rich in magnesium. I have been told it is not dangerous but obviously it is a nuisance I just have to live with it at the moment. It only happens when I am in AF paroxysmal so it is not all the time. The times that I am not in AF I live a normal life. I go on holiday, exercise, shopping, and look after my husband who is wheelchair bound. I try not to let this abomination called AF control me.

[Polski in reply to Hidden]

I found that when I increased my magnesium levels, the frequency with which I wake for the loo in the night went down considerably, and I sleep much better as a result. Also, when in AF, the need to go is increased but nothing like as bad as this.

So my question is, have you looked into all the lifestyle factors, including any relevant supplements (always check with doctor first in case they are counter-indicated for you).

[Boombiddy in reply to Polski]

Hiya Polski , thanks for your reply!

That is interesting.

I used to take magnesium sporadically as I am very inconsistent.

Now I have started to take it daily I am not having so many ectopics and am sleeping better because my heart is not rumbling so much at night.

(I also have started to go to bed at a decent-ish time, which also helps).

I suspect that being on bisoprolol has increased my need for magnesium. I wonder, is this your experience too?

Thanks again from Boombiddy.

[Polski in reply to Boombiddy]

I think I read that taking biso does increase one's need for magnesium, but can't remember for sure. However taking any medicine tends to use up one's supplies of various nutrients, including magnesium, because the body uses them to process and get rid of the medicine. All medicines are ultimately toxic, which is why we get side effects, but we take them because we want the good effects they produce as well. Of course, many foods contain toxins too, and our bodies have very well developed systems for dealing with them, but medicines can overburden the system and wear it out, hence the need for supplements!

[Boombiddy in reply to Polski]

Hiya Polski, I just wanted to say thanks for this really clear and reassuringly balanced answer to my magnesium question.

[Hidden in reply to Polski]

Hello Polski, I have looked into lifestyle factors but my polyuria only happens when I am in AF which is paroxysmal, I have never taken alcohol never liked it, I eat a magnesium rich diet I don't drink tea or coffee as they are a trigger for my AF, I swim, go on holiday, shop and look after my husband who is wheel chair bound, I have always been aware of diet the affects of to much carbs etc but, with me the AF causes this affect and until I can get it sorted out then I will just have to cope with it as I have been doing but hopefully soon it will be rectified. I like most of us on this forum who battle with this abomination called AF we do not let it get in the way of our lives as for me AF does not rule me I silently tell it to fox trot Oscar

Barbara

[BobD Volunteer]

Hi Boombiddy. Interestingly enough it is a while since this subject was aired. There was a time when I was explaining it several times a month to newbies but it is seldom mentioned these days. Maybe everybody is too polite to comment. When I first had AF and still had my dodgy prostate I was up every half hour in the night so well aware of it. ha ha.

Can't see any tags re heroin or biso so well done if you found a way to remove them.

[Boombiddy]

Thanks everyone.

BobD , thanks for feedback re tags.

Glad you can't see them.

I can still see them, so maybe they are displayed for the poster to edit. I hope Help will get back to me with how to edit them anyway.

(It's beyond my knowledge but maybe people struggling with opiates sometimes excrete ANP so I suppose there's no need to edit the tag).

Thanks again.

[Boombiddy]

Well so far my conclusion is, maybe the tomcat pee is a mast cell activation symptom, since nobody else here has it.

Meanwhile, my so far scanty reading about ANP gives me another thing to raise with GP/EP, as I don't like the idea of a further fall in BP at night given my chronic low BP.

So another piece of the puzzle falls into place...

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

I get smelly, darker colored pee in AF, but also suffer from ultra low BP, especially in AF, or rather I did. I take Pyridostigamine for another condition which I just realized recently is also a drug prescribed for POTS.

I had episodes of tachycardia/?SVT/?AF/?AFl 2 weeks ago and interestingly I didn't have the low BP with it nor the smelly pee.

Hubbie also has dark and smelly when in AF.

[Boombiddy in reply to CDreamer]

CDreamer , thankyou for answering, and please forgive me if I'm "teaching my Grannie to suck eggs" in this, but do you think you and your husband could be getting AF when you're dehydrated? I don't know, if say you drink tea/coffee a lot that day or have been rushing around and forgetting to drink?

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

For hubbie yes, that is a possibility because he doesn't drink nearly enough water and too much coffee, in my opinion, but then there is none so deaf as those who do not want to hear!

In my case, I don't think so generally, but there have been occasions. I become very ill when I am dehydrated so get signs very early on and I keep a log of what I drink, mainly to remind myself! I drink about 8 glasses of water a day + only herbal teas, some of which also have dietetic effect. I think mine is a mix of meds, supplements & certain foods generally but is definitely different colour and smell in AF.

Hubby takes a daily dietetic which I think really contributes!

I was part of a nurse review trialling a very useful guide which I posted up in our loo - you had to record everything you drank for a week and every time you peed and the colour of pee matching it to a colour chart - REALLY!

I noticed Hubbie improved his fluid intake whilst we did this. I notice a big difference though at certain times which often, not always, co-incide with arrhythmia.

[Boombiddy in reply to CDreamer]

Thanks CDreamer .

With POTS the guideline is to drink 2.5 litres. Interesting. The only herbal diuretic I can think of is dandelion! What are the others?

Most people think it's the caffeine in tea & coffee that is diuretic, but tea is twice as diuretic as coffee, can't remember what makes it so, have the info somewhere... I don't know if this is useful, but a Home Help taught me a trick to take the diuretic effect away from the tea: brew the tea for 1-2 mins, pour away the water, then pour on more boiling water, brew, and you have tea that doesn't make you pee!

I was thinking of you cos I came across this website by someone with EDS, POTS and autoimmune myasthenia gravis, and she had some brilliant things to say about hydration and electrolytes, and some good suggestions.

kindofbroken.blogspot.co.uk...

(I am now going to try Salt Stix and have seen some Nuun All Day tablets cheap on Amazon...)

(For you non-POTS sufferers reading this and thinking of giving these salt+electrolytes tablets a go, check the ingredients in case the salt is too much for you. Me an' CDreamer, y'see, we can take'em cos we're *sooo special*. Alas.)

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

Thanks, I use coconut water and pink salt and bathe in sea salt.

I take Pyridostigamine for myasthenia which I just found out is also a treatment for Dysautonomia! My BP has stabilized at about 100/70 since starting taking it and haven't had syncope for over 12 months.

I have met SO many people with autoimmune + dysautonomia recently - there has to be a link between them apart from the ganglia one.

I don't drink tea period - can't stand the taste of tannin.

There is a fennel and liquorice detox tea which makes you pee, well me anyway.

[Boombiddy in reply to CDreamer]

Wow, licorice is known to have an aldosterone-like effect (like fludrocortisone, keeping salt in the system), so fennel must be very diuretic hence its 'detox' reputation.

Apparently the ancient Greeks used to keep licorice root for those emergency marches where they had little water or food and it would keep them going for days.

Dr. Stephen Pocinki in the USA advocates the use of licorice in POTS patients to increase BP.

However our UK wussy fake licorice wouldn't do, it'd need to be tea from licorice powder taken frequently, or fantastic Dutch licorice, or Swedish is good... Dutch double salt licorice is an acquired taste but once you've got it you can't stop! Er.. I might have gone a little off topic...

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

Unfortunatelyit is a no no for AF.

[Boombiddy in reply to CDreamer]

Surely only for AF with hypertension?

[Boombiddy in reply to Boombiddy]

Pah-leaze pleeese say it isn't so!

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

Not sure, I have to check hat one out - am seeing EP today.

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

Just know every time I took anything containing liquorice I went into AF.

[Boombiddy in reply to Boombiddy]

CDreamer I have been so embarrassed all day because I actually wrote "With POTS the guideline is to drink 2.5 litres", as if you didn't know, being a POTSie.

That must have been really annoying!

I just had a brain-flip and forgot you for a minute that you had POTS. I am sorry. And you were so gracious.

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

Absolutely no offense, please don't be, don't be. All information is useful and worth repeating.

I read the blog, I think I had seen it already as I post on FB Myasthenia site & Autonomic + Autoimmunesite which are both very informative.

Do you post on the STARS HU site? I already have enough but do glance at it occasionally.

Best wishes x

[Boombiddy in reply to CDreamer]

Thanks CDreamer , I appreciate your kind response.

In answer to your question I have posted on STARS and EDS UK at healthunlocked.

As you were wondering about the crossover between autoimmune + dysautonomia &c. I wondered if you might find these articles interesting:

rccxandillness.com

neuro.psychiatryonline.org/...

I hope these may also help 'join the dots' for some others here, as probably AF does not usually present all by itself.

Best regards,

Boombiddy

[CDreamer in reply to Boombiddy]

Thank you both interesting, don't think the 1st applies to me but will follow as of great interest. The second I absolutely relate to and but I don't think goes nearly far enough! I have worked with anxiety disorders for 20 years with people who have served in armed forces, emergency 1st responders and security personnel and nearly all originally present with physical, not emotional issues, although ANS being overwhelmed either acutely or chronically is always present.

[Boombiddy in reply to CDreamer]

Very interesting CDreamer ! Thx.

[rosyG]

You are becoming a good project manager( as discussed on Saturday!)

[Boombiddy in reply to rosyG]

Wow thankyou Rosie, I really appreciate your encouragement and I am so thankful for you taking an interest on Saturday.

I will now have to go and do the work and put all this together, not looking forward to it as hate repetition, but know it should be worth it in the end.

[Boombiddy]

Well thanks to everyone who has answered so far!

***And Aaargh it's set off a new (but very much related) question!***

And as I was answering Finvola it set off a whole new train of thought, and a new question...

I was saying, I've tried to check this out with the mast cell people but nothing conclusive so far...

And I remembered the tomcat wee was accompanied by, or around the same time as:

pain in area below ribs (liver, spleen, pancreas area),

and around that time I was sometimes getting shaking, quaking in left hand side liver area just below left rib cage, (left but not far from centre), and even pain and a sense of swelling in that whole area.

(Blood tests when I was admitted to A&E showed liver function etc. were OK).

And, I have had it much less since I was treated for PAF and sent home with bisoprolol...

Mm, the area of shaking/quaking sensation was just below heart, ish.. Does anyone get this with AF?.

Anyone still reading, have you experienced this?

Wow Finvola I only meant to say thanks for answering my icky question but it's all set off a whole new train of thought....

[Boombiddy]

...So nobody else gets a shaky feeling just below rib cage at stomach/liver/vitals level? With their AF?

Anybody?

[JonathanPittsCrick]

Hi, I'm rather late on this thread but I thought I should chip in because nobody mentioned WHY you pee more with AF – it's actually your body trying to correct the fluid problem and it's successful.

The heart function in AF is less efficient than in normal (sinus) rhythm so blood gets backed up trying to get into the heart which isn't pumping it forward fast enough. The back pressure causes stretching of the atria and they "think" the body is therefore overloaded with salt and water so they tell the kidneys to get rid of it (by producing a diuretic hormone ANP/BNP). So that makes you pee more until the back pressure has dropped to normal. If it didn't happen the back pressure would go up enough to cause congestion of your lungs (making you breathless on lying down) or oedema of your legs, so it's just as well the system works.

Of course when the AF stops you have some catching up to do so you can feel a bit fainty until you have had the chance to eat a bacon sandwich or something to boost the salt level back to what it was – especially if you have a POTS tendency.

One of the problems when AF is permanent is that after a year or so the system stops bothering to react and people gradually develop fluid overload – it is often called "heart failure" but actually can happen even when the heart is completely fine (apart from th AF). Anyway all they need is a regular low dose of diuretic to do the same job and everything is OK again.

[Boombiddy in reply to JonathanPittsCrick]

That is such an enlightening reply JonathanPittsCrick , and it makes so much sense. Thankyou so much!

[Boombiddy]

Mm, bacon sarnies... There are some compensations then.

[PeterWh in reply to Boombiddy]

Processed food!!!!

[Boombiddy in reply to PeterWh]

Yes I must try some. Does it affect you then?