is fasting that powerful? we will know soon it seems

[Maxone73]

they are considering also ketogenic diet, which is NOT a high protein “let’s get stuffed with steak” diet but high (good) fat diet…even a vegan can do keto

cedars-sinai.org/discoverie...

[MrG68]

I think it depends. I think people will see different results because peoples situations are unique.

As seen in previous posts, if you read Dr Seyfreids research, you'll see he has a treatment using keto and a drug to deal with glutomine (since he states the cancer is feeding on either glocose or glutomine).

However, as pointed out by some, cancer doesn't just feed on those two things. Depending on its stage it could also scavange other things too. It's worth mentioning that some said that it can also metabolize ketones. I wouldn't rule anything out.

The question that comes to my mind is, which method of treatment you employ is resultant in the lowest growth rate. So, would removing glucose in your diet result in a source that grows the cancer at a lower rate? Does ketones increase this rate?

Maybe by fasting, some people have a faster growth rate. I'm not sure anyone really knows for certain.

What I would say though, if deciding to fast, I would consider monitoring how well you're doing (PSA, scans etc) frequently at the start to see if you're heading in the wrong direction. I would be looking at a time series of PSA readings and examining the gradient of the best fit line.

I would start off by not aiming to get heavily into ketosis at first. Introduce some carbs at first and reduce them slowly over time so you can monitor the effects of going heavier into ketosis.

Just my opinion. That what I would do. I suggest people talk to their med team first before doing anything if they decided to try it.

[Maxone73 in reply to MrG68]

Valter Longo preliminary data from his trials about fasting and fast mimicking diet (for people who are fit to do it) are giving positive results on cancer fighting even if his research started with longevity. He just got a couple of million euros grant to expand the cohorts (as European oncology institute, not as himself of course!!). But his aim was not to fight cancer with these diets alone but to use them to amplify the effect of SOC, the rationale is that non cancerous cells go into kind of “dormant” state because of low calories, while cancer cells cannot do it. This would make them a great target for chemo for example, which tends to act on cells that divide rapidly. I do a fast mimicking diet (300kcal/day) starting 48 hours before and ending 24 hours after chemo. No side effects and energy levels increased in spite of a growing desire of pizza!!! Had my last chemo today, but I plan to do this fast mimicking once per month.

[MrG68 in reply to Maxone73]

Good for youHope it works out

[Maxone73 in reply to MrG68]

Oh I do too! At the moment the only diet I feel safe with is basically vegan with mid-low carbs and added salmon. PSA dropped like crazy but of course I am on chemo! The hospital is making me test PSA once per month for the next 24 months (so I understood) but based on the other test they run by default I may pay for some extra ones on my own.

[85745 in reply to Maxone73]

I did a 10 day water only fast at day 8 had psa test result showed 15 was 25 so dropped, but a month or so latter back up to 25. still on a diet of veg, fish, grnd chicken, no refined carb. I did add lentils, whole oats but very limited. Grnd beef 2 times a month- maybe. At this point I feel good , but who knows where I would be if I ate what ever. I do miss pizza and chinese food and a fat stuffed burrito. lol

[JohnInTheMiddle]

Max! This is a fantastic share! Dr. Stephen Freedland is someone I have noted from time to time regarding great research where prostate cancer is concerned. And this article is encouragement to reconsider keto & fasting. BOTH keto and fasting are positively referenced in the article.

I have previously done full-on keto and fasting and have achieved full-on ketosis for extended periods. And I continued this for the first 6 months after my diagnosis with stage 4 metastatic PCa. Then I stopped though, because I was concerned that I might be doing myself harm. And in the meantime I have really ramped up my exercise program and knowledge.

More recently when considering returning to keto and fasting I've been concerned about two things: (1) Some of the supplements I take every day must be taken with fat. And (2) while pursuing a high volume of exercise, including exercise, I ran into a situation of "overtraining". I became very tired and concluded on the basis of some calculations that I wasn't eating enough protein.

However I think I can get this right if I follow a good plan. I believe it's possible to do fasting, keto, exercise and appropriate supplements together as part of an ongoing program.

So your article today was a trigger to push me along the path I've been working on.

If you have thoughts on these topics I'm sure they would be very interesting to learn about!

[Maxone73 in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

Man! 3 words that we Italians know very well: extra virgin olive oil! You can do keto even if you are vegan, keto is all about fat 😃

Proteins are overrated for muscular development it seems from recent research but a keto diet is no more than 20% of calories from proteins, 5% or less from carbs (vegetables) and 75% from fat if I remember correctly. Proteins you can get in 3 ways in my opinion (as I do even if I don’t do keto): nuts, seeds and a good formulation of proteins powder for training days. I add salmon for example. Another way, that I do not use but I tried in my youth is this: to absorb any kind of protein, your body decomposes it into amino acids. Get amino acids then. Rapidly absorbed and (especially branched chain amino acids) are very good against fatigue and burnout. One day send me your detailed workout plan in private message, let me take a look, if you want. 😊😊

[Nusch]

I love the last paragraph: “Even if a fasting mimicking diet makes no difference at all, and I would be hard-pressed to believe that’s the case, just the perception that patients get an element of control back is immeasurable,” Freedland said. “I don’t think we can overestimate the psychological benefits of patients believing that they are a partner in this fight.”

Personally I follow a plant based diet plus fish, skipping processed food, sugars, alcohol and industry refined fat as good as possible. This, besides exercise, is contributing to overall health, especially CVD and diabetes. Latest studies also show that this lifestyle is beneficial to fight prostate cancer.

[Maxone73 in reply to Nusch]

Same here. Today I am celebrating my last chemo, so I will exit my fasting in style at an Asian all you can eat. There will be some fried stuff! But even there I will be going for fish, seafood, edamame and soy. And water. I can still enjoy some big amount of food if it’s not more than once every two months let’s say. I enjoy it even more than usual! 😀 but of course this evening for dinner I will have some miso and that’s it!

[Nusch in reply to Maxone73]

Enjoy!

[Maxone73 in reply to Nusch]

I ate for 3! You call call me the shrimp man!

[Jazzman2023 in reply to Nusch]

Sounds like a good plan ! Do you feel you get enough protein ? And what is CVD ? Thanks !

[dhccpa in reply to Jazzman2023]

Cardiovascular disease? Just a guess.

[Nusch in reply to Jazzman2023]

CVD stands for cardio vascular disease. Yes, for sure. The days I don’t eat fish I eat legumes, beans & co as well as some soy. By the way: other than other cancers PC is less driven by sugar and more by proteins, especially from meat. That’s what I got out of many studies. I try to get around 0.8 gramm per kilogram body weight per day. You can check with an APP, e.g. Cronometer (free version is sufficient).

[Maxone73 in reply to Nusch]

My MO happens to be a personal trainer like me and he told me the same about proteins and PC, careful with proteins, prefer vegetable proteins supplements and use supplements only on weight training day. Which I have always done in my life, a bit redundant but ok! 😜 But you should not use body weight as unit of measurement unless you have already reached your ideal body weight. Most protein producers are only interested in sales , they say x grams per kg of body weight….so if I am 100kg with 10% of fat I need the same proteins as someone that is 100kg and 30% of fat? They should always write ideal weight or, even better, lean mass.

[MakeItRainbows in reply to Maxone73]

I started seeing a personal trainer who obviously is not a trained oncologist. I started to see one to help me build a strength training habit. I am not on ADT, but I will be if I have biochemical recurrence and want to already have a good training program.

I weigh 135lbs (BMI: 20.5) and my personal trainer wants me to be eating lots and lots of protein to help with muscle repair.

I saw you’re a personal trainer and consult with an MO who is one too .. how do you navigate these seemingly conflicting goals of maintaining muscle mass while reducing the growth rate of cancer?

[Maxone73 in reply to MakeItRainbows]

Well, it was fun to know that he is an ISSA trainer and an ex competitive judoka. About the balance you mentioned, in the early 90es when I started working out (I have been a personal trainer for a short time but ten years later) they used to say that training comes first, then diet, then supplements. Probably because finding supplements in Italy was not easy or cheap! So I did literally years of heavy training without any supplement, actually I am using them now more than I did. And I apply the same principle, work out as heavily as I can, not too many protein from my diet and protein powder just after heavy sessions. But I cannot win this battle, I can at most resist. There are guys here who never trained that can even put on some muscle when they start, but if you were already trained you can only slow down muscle mass loss. When I started adt 5 months ago I used to do pyramid sets for chest, warmup (age 50 so I must) and then 130kg per 4-5 reps, then 120, 100, 90, 80, 80 (increasing reps at the same time)….now I have problems doing 2 reps with 90kg…ok I want to believe it’s also due to 6 chemo sessions, we will see, but I am afraid it’s adt. My suggestion is to pack up muscle while you can (use creatin if you are not metastatic to the bones), see those muscles also as a source of proteins that you might need in the future. And about my MO, there are conflicting studies about the amount of proteins but there is general consensus toward vegetal proteins in diet and supplements. So I do not totally agree with him 😂

[Nusch in reply to Maxone73]

My BMI is 20.5. I never take protein supplements, only plant based protein and fish. I’m jogging 10-12km daily and do weight lifting and gymnastics. No problem with muscles.

[Maxone73 in reply to Nusch]

Then you are fine with 0.8!

[Maxone73 in reply to Nusch]

my bmi is 29 and I have 10% fat and almost 45% muscle, i weight 90-92 kg and 175 cm of height….bmi alone does not say if you are fat or not, as the calculation does not take into account muscle mass, but if you jog 10-12 km per day and weight lift as well you must be in great shape!

[Nusch in reply to Maxone73]

I‘m a former marathon runner, so yes, my fat percentage is low, also based on plant based diet, no alc, so sugar, minimum oil.

[RJAMSG]

That’s interesting, I do the intermittent fasting which is talked about at the Johns Hopkins web site as a health benefit, but this information is also helpful for health for any reason cancer/otherwise, thanks!

[joeydashoe]

Try the Book "The Immunity Code" By Joel Greene good health starts in the Gut microbiome.

[Kittenlover50]

will stick with our low fat, low carb, higher protein. Stage 4, 7 years non detectable, no evidence disease, no meds or treatments 6 years. Eating processed fat bombs is not appetizing.

[LongTimeRunning]

I hope this works out, but I'm cautious now with any claims about fasting. About 4 years ago I did a very strict 16 hour fast for over 7 months with the goal of reducing cholesterol, keeping diet the same. No effect. Cholesterol actually went up. Dug in the literature and found some cases where fasting did raise cholesterol (and some anecdotes on the web saying the same thing). So in my case it didn't work. I think it's pretty clear it's my genetics and LDL cholesterol and not diet. My HDL and triglycerides always good.

I actually liked the fasting regime. Made my mornings and lunch routines easier. Now, taking food with prednisone in the AM makes fasting a tougher choice.

[Maxone73 in reply to LongTimeRunning]

I did a 14-10 or 16-8 with pleasure but now darolutamide requires food to be absorbed…so I can do at most 12-12. But fast mimicking diet is another thing. It’s like 5 days per month at 500 kcal per day. It promotes autophagy and cells renewal after the fasting. But yes, nothing works for everyone

[Maxone73 in reply to LongTimeRunning]

If you want to dig deeper you can check dr Valter Longo research, he is a biologist/gerontologist that works between USA and Italy, studying the habits of people 100 years old and above, but now they have found benefits in fasting also to help cancer therapies. To be honest many guys that had docetaxel have done that here, instinctively fasting before and after the chemo, at least to reduce the side effects.

[j-o-h-n]

My special diet contains vitamins O and O.....................................It's called fOOd.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 01/12/2024 8:24 PM EST

[Maxone73 in reply to j-o-h-n]

And it seems to be working!