Here We Go Again....Vitamin D Supplements Worthless

[gusgold]

Next they will tell us not to take Gator Blood (BIRM)

theconversation.com/vitamin...

[whatsinaname]

The article says "healthy people should get Vitamin D from small doses of sunshine every day as well as from food such as fish, oil, mushrooms and dairy products".

[pjoshea13 in reply to whatsinaname]

Pure nonsense of course.

A medium-sized mushroom (18g) yields only 1 IU of the wrong type of vitamin D - D3.

Dairy products are a good source? Then why do they add cholecalciferol to milk? It's OK to use a supplement if it has been added to food?

Fish oil is a poor source of vitamin D because, in order to get a significant amount, one will also get a very high dose of vitamin A. The Vitamin D Council says that vitamin A at significant levels will interfere with vitamin D uptake.

Which leaves sunshine. The sun is too weak today in New York, London, Oslo, etc, & will be for many weeks. & I doubt you will see half-naked optimists sun bathing in those places today.

-Patrick

[whatsinaname in reply to pjoshea13]

Yes, I thought so. So what do you advise ? Continue to use Vitamin D as a supplement ? Or........?

[pjoshea13 in reply to whatsinaname]

Solutions for obtaining sufficient vitamin D "naturally".

[1] Retire to somewhere near the equator & play golf all day. e.g:

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (3° 8′ 51″ N)

Singapore (1° 17′ 0″ N) ...

Medan, Indonesia (3° 35′ 0″ N) ...

Guayaquil, Ecuador (2° 11′ 0″ S) ...

Fortaleza, Brazil (3° 43′ 6″ S) ...

Cali, Colombia (3° 25′ 14″ N) ...

Nairobi, Kenya (1°17′0″S) ...

Quito, Ecuador (0° 15′ 0″ S) ...

[2] Buy a sunlamp. Note that the skin will only make so much vitamin D. You cannot overdose. However, I have known a couple of users who could not get out of the "insufficiency range with their lamps.

-Patrick

[Hidden in reply to pjoshea13]

D3 is the wrong type of vit D? What is the right type of vit D?

[pjoshea13 in reply to Hidden]

Rats! The mushroom D is D2. We need D3.

Ironically, although cholecalciferol [D3] supplements are inexpensive & bioidentical to human cholecalciferol, U.S. doctors seem to prescribe ergocalciferol [D2] which is alien to the body & more expensive.

Thanks for picking up the typo.

-Patrick

[pjoshea13 in reply to pjoshea13]

I meant to write that mushroom D is D2 (ergocalciferol) - we need D3 (cholecalciferol).

Thanks to WSOPeddie for spotting the error.

-Patrick

[adlerman in reply to whatsinaname]

where should unhealthy people get their Vitamin D?

[pjoshea13]

"Using mendelian randomisation analyses, we demonstrated that genetically decreased bone mineral density (and, to a lesser extent, hand grip strength) was the only clinical risk factor among those tested, with evidence for an effect on fracture risk."

It's fate! Blame your parents!

-Patrick

[Hidden in reply to pjoshea13]

They have a lot to answer for and I'm not talking genetics.

[pjoshea13]

What settled it for me long ago is the presence of the vitamin D receptor in prostatic cells, & the dysfunction of genes involved in autocrine control of the hormone.

CYP27B1 encodes for 1-α-hydroxylase, which converts 25-hydroxy-vitamin D [25(OH)D] into the active vitamin D metabolite 1,25(OH)2D.

CYP24A1 encodes for 24-hydroxylase, the enzyme that catalyzes the inactivation of 1,25(OH)2D.

With autocrine control of a hormone (i.e. the control is entirely within the cell), there is quite often an enzyme generated to perform the synthesis, & another enzyme, induced by the presence of the hormone, to remove the hormone. Thus, there is a narrow window of opportunity for the hormone to do its thing.

In PCa cells, CYP27B1 is down-regulated. This means that less active 1,25(OH)2D is created.

And, CYP24A1 is up-regulated. This means that the active 1,25(OH)2D is cleared from the cell faster.

Prostate cancer does not want active vitamin D within its cells.

For much of the time, prostatic cells have access to vitamin D in the blood - only in the inactive 25(OH)D form. When PCa has basically shut down production of 1,25(OH)2D from 25(OH)D, one must rely on occassional kidney conversion.

Why are high levels of calcium intake associated with advanced PCa? Because the kidneys only make 1,25(OH)2D when calcium in the blood is low. Significant amounts of calcium, from supplements or dairy, will starve PCa of beneficial kidney-produced 1,25(OH)2D.

-Patrick

[gusgold]

Nal,

catch me a young gator about 12" long

[Break60 in reply to gusgold]

So it’ll fit in a blender?

[podsart]

Great presentation!

Would be even better if you now include the subsequent addition of gator blood to this process

[Jollyjill]

Even if further research suggests that it doesn’t benefit bones, there are other important reasons to continue taking vitamin D. It helps strengthen the immune system, protects against a number of serious diseases including cancer. Studies have linked vitamin D deficiency to as many as 18 types of cancer. (Source: Dr. Andrew Weil, Integrative Medicine Specialist.) My SO who has Advanced PCa takes 5,000 ml/day & it seems to complement his Casodex 150/day therapy in light of overall outcomes (so far!....praying)

[homer13]

Based on advice sometime back, I have found that the most effective use of VitD is taking it at bed time. (this of course assumes one is taking a good quality Vit D)

[Magnus1964]

I think these university researchers find evidence for anything just to meet their publication quota .

[adlerman]

and don't forget that cranberries are -good- bad -good- bad- good ?

[Hidden in reply to adlerman]

Coffee is good bad good bad, now good.

[mikehike]

Why take Vitamin D supplements when you can sun bath at nude beach instead?

But in regards to it's prevention of pCa :

White men with extremely low serum vitamin D (25-OH D < 12 ng/ml) have nearly 4 times the chance of having an advance stage pCa cancer at biopsy. Black men with these same levels have nearly 5 times the chance of an advance stage pCa. (Vitamin D Deficiency Predicts Prostate Biopsy Outcomes, Adam B. Murphy)

In animal studies,

"Overall, data suggest that early intervention with vitamin D in TRAMP slowed androgen-stimulated tumor progression, but prolonged treatment resulted in development of a resistant and more aggressive disease associated with increased distant organ metastasis." Hmm, liked the sound at the beginning of the sentence but sure did end on a sour note! (Early Growth Inhibition Is Followed by Increased Metastatic Disease with Vitamin D (Calcitriol) Treatment in the TRAMP Model of Prostate Cancer). By the way, they tested it on castrated mice too and it had no effect, thus the phrase "androgen-stimulated tumor progression".

Well maybe it works differently on men.

During A six week study, researchers separated 45 men, scheduled to have their prostates removed, into groups of different vitamin D dosing levels. The study found giving higher doses of 10K IU and 40K IU decreased psa levels and showed indications of the tumor becoming less aggressive on a cellular level.(Tumor suppressor microRNAs, miR-100 and -125b, are regulated by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D in primary prostate cells and in patient tissue, Angeline A Giangreco).

In another study, these same researchers studied 37 men with pCa tumors scheduled to undergo prostatectomies. They assigned the men to a group to receive 4,000 IU of vitamin D, or to that of a placebo. The prostates of both sets were removed 60 days later. Many of the tumors from men receiving vitamin D showed improvements, whereas the tumors from men receiving the placebo either stayed the same or got worse.(Vitamin D may keep low-grade prostate cancer from becoming aggressive.)

In summary, if you have localized "androgen-stimulated tumor progression" , vitamin D will probably slow the growth of the primary tumor but may cause metastasis. So feeling lucky punk? Well do you? That's what my inner voice is asking myself. I'm taking my vitamin D supplements at least until we have sunnier days in Seattle.

[monte1111]

Remember when the coffee cans all got smaller in the same week. Everyone having a supply of a brand new unusual size can and factories retooled in the same week? Remember when you could buy a wiper insert instead of a whole new wiper blade. Remember when mattresses were 2 sided instead of 1 sided (and you didn't need to take out a 5 year loan to buy one). A person could rant on this all day. California wants to tax text messages now. So I started taking Vitamin D again, and now it seems its the wrong vitamin D. Did not know there were more than the one my local Walmart pushes. And sorry Nal, the image of you running about bare chested scares the crap out of me. May keep gaters away though. Hope you are enjoying the sun.

[gusgold in reply to monte1111]

Nalakrats does not keep Gators away...he attracts them...below is a pic of Sam Nals last fishing buddy

kaiju.wdfiles.com/local--fi...

[monte1111]

Well, now I'm not only taking the wrong kind of vitamin D, I'm taking it at the wrong time of day. Woe is me, woe is me.

[j-o-h-n]

"D" Just two words "ORAL SEX".....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Thursday 12/27/2018 7:47 PM EST

[Stegosaurus37]

I'm firmly convinced more people die of worry than anything else. Many of us have lived long enough to see things which you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY AVOID one year become ESSENTIAL another year The government bureaucrats change the food pyramid more frequently than they change their socks. Eat a good variety of non-junk food in moderation and you'll be OK.