thunder God vine has been proven in studies to be just as effective as mtx. Reputable organizations agree with the findings.
my only problem is that it's not available and hard to find. It is, however , available on the web, but how do you know what you're getting?
my research also tells me that there are a few other natural remedies as well. For someone who can't take pills , that's a big deal, since insurance won't pay for liquid mtx before I try other pills!
Please could you link to the studies that prove this? The only one I could find was a preliminary study suggesting it may be beneficial when taken alongside mtx, not in lieu of.
On webmd lots of it might it could it may help RA and other issues but as you say more as a supplement rather than a stand alone.
Yeah, saw the webmd article, it’s just the OP stated there are studies proving it’s as effective as dmards. There are two RA related studies listed in the webmd entry references, but they don’t prove the claim, so I’d really like the OP to provide details of the studies that do.
If you're looking to avoid mtx, as I was, this link says it's a good substitute. medicalnewstoday.com/articl...
supplements.selfdecode.com/....
Genuinely appreciate the link and have now read all of the RA based papers referenced, but I think you’re missing my point. The OP explicitly stated that thunder god vine has ‘been proven in studies to be just as effective as mtx’ on a standalone basis for rheumatoid arthritis. None of the studies I’ve read say this at all, the closest one being a conclusion that the vine is not inferior. In scientific terms, that’s not actually the same as saying something is equally as effective as: a non-inferiority study is designed to prove that substance A is only a little bit less effective than substance B, and they work out an acceptability margin at the outset. Substance A only has to meet that margin to be deemed not inferior to substance B. In this case the root has been deemed non-inferior to mtx, but the results of the dual therapy group, where they were using it alongside mtx, far outweigh either of the monotherapy ones. Clearly there is some effective benefit to be had.
Bottom line: I’m not against botanical medicines in the slightest, not when I drink foraged, homemade herbal teas my best mate makes on a daily basis and swear by them for certain things, but if sweeping statements are going to be made, I think it’s important to provide the links to back them up. Alternatively, I’ll also take links to the reputable organisations saying that it’s as effective as mtx, instead, but either way, I would very much like to see the evidence referred to. I don’t think asking for that is unreasonable, nor am I trying to be difficult: I would actually welcome a natural treatment over dmards, or even just something proven that could be used as an adjunct to existing therapy.
Speak with a chi ease herbalist?
A good summary is here:nccih.nih.gov/health/thunde....
I would agree with the post that wants to see the original articles giving the conclusion that Thunder God vine is 'as effective as methotrexate'.
It certainly sounds promising as a line of research for another alternative at the level of methotrexate (i.e. first line treatment). My conclusion would be that I would like to know what the active principle in Thunder God Vine is, how it can be standardised and then tested against other medications for efficacy.
Thanks for the link. Definitely an area for research and concerning about the warning over possible side effects.
When you buy on the web unless it is from a licensed pharmacist (in the UK) you have no idea what you are buying. One of the major problems with buying online from unknown sources. The saying, 'Buyer beware' is really relevant.
Agree with Charlie-G.
I didn't buy it on the web (how do you know what you're getting unless you have a lab test it) and it's impossible to find at an herb store. There are a few other names for it.
I posted this for those who had no idea that thunder god vine existed. I did exhaustive research on it. Anyone else who may be as interested could do the same research and read the same things.
I came across thunder god vine because I was looking for an alternative to tablets. Reliable sources and studies are the basis for the information. Anyone can find it. If someone is interested in a subject and reads every website and sifts through it all until there's no more to find, after a while, that person will make a decision based on all the information they read.
The herb grows in china and they use it there.
KkHere are some of the links I had found regarding this (which I no longer need now that my pills are now liquid).hindawi.com/journals/ecam/2...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/164...
Now this next link includes a study that says thunder god vine, when taken in combination with methotrexate produces the best outcome. However, I was looking for a methotrexate tablet replacement, so this herb was scoring pretty good on its own. abc.net.au/science/articles...
And here is a link that could help you find a way to get this, other than the internet, by reading through to find out who (types of practitioners) 'prescribes' this.
mountsinai.org/health-libra...
More links in no specific order
webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingre... acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms...
rxlist.com/alternative_ra_t...
In support of non-traditional medicine. harmonynaturalhealing.com/p...
I appreciate you're not UK based but our Government published this a while ago
We are advising consumers not to use unlicensed herbal products that contain the herbal ingredient lei gong teng (tripterygium wilfordii, also known as Thunder God Vine or Seven-step vine) because of concerns about serious side effects on fertility and on the liver, kidneys, immune system, blood, and heart. gov.uk/drug-safety-update/t....
It echoes what we say generally, that ‘natural' products aren't necessarily safe to take. Sorry to be a party pooper but I’d really do your homework & ask questions of reputable medical professionals before you even consider purchasing such products.
Mtx is also just as dangerous and has been proven to cause death when taken incorrectly. The same can be said for natural plant remedies, especially when said by the multi-zillion dollar pharmaceutical industry!
I can see a chink of big pharma here. It's what often divides us. As you well know MTX is a well used licensed med for RD which has changed the life for the better of many of us. We are not just given it & that's it, we are monitored. If bloods show an issue we are asked to halt it until the reason for the issue, which may not even be due to MTX, is discovered. There's nobody to do that with a potent natural product so how are you to ever know how many deaths have occurred from taking this & other natural products? You won't because there's no paper trail. That's dangerous.
I replied to your post out of concern for you, I don't want it to become divisive.
I did mention this herb to my rheumatologist. But then I got the liquid med and therefore no longer had the need for this herb. I was about to ask for help with it, so I wouldn't have been taking it with out dr oversight. Shucks, I even asked my Dr. if I could take collagen (I think it was). You never know what interacts with what. Speaking of which, it seems that folic acid has quite a few interactions when I tried to do a deep search on it.
I’m only asking because I'm intrigued. Why raise the post if you do take MTX? You inferred, no you stated, that “my insurance won't pay for liquid mtx before I try other pills”, yet you're now saying you are prescribed MTX liquid so had no need for this herb.
You are quite right of course to ask your Rheumy about maybe taking any alternatives to his prescribed meds, we mention this regularly here. All preparations, medication, supplements or herbs & vitamins have the potential to interact with what may be prescribed so it is actually vital they are run past our healthcare providers beforehand. Folic acid is a vitamin so no different, it can change how we metabolise or even absorb or excrete some meds, it's not a lone vitamin in that respect.
I didn't see a question mark in your previous 2 posts, so what were you asking? (You wrote: I’m only asking because I'm intrigued. )
You also wrote:"Why raise the post if you do take MTX?" The answer is that I was trying to find a substitute for mtx tablets.
You wrote, "You inferred, no you stated, that “my insurance won't pay for liquid mtx before I try other pills”,". Yes, that was true at the time I wrote it. Then I changed insurance and got approved for the liquid mtx! Therefore I had no need for the herb. btw, before I changed insurance, I asked them if xatmep would be covered.
You wrote, "Folic acid is a vitamin so no different," I ask, no different what?
You wrote,"it can change how we metabolise or even absorb or excrete some meds, it's not a lone vitamin in that respect.". Can you rephrase this? What does "it's not a lone vitamin in that respect" mean?
Interestingly, folic acid has a lot of interactions when taken with other med. What's interesting is that most sites say there's no interactions with folic acid. But then I read what I thought was a reliable source that it has like 50 interactions. Someday I'll link to it.
There were only 2 questions in my 3 replies, both punctuated with a question mark. There wasn’t a question in my first reply.
The question in my second reply was rhetorical, as such didn’t need a response.
You answered the only question in my third reply in your most recent, in between the original post & my reply you had been prescribed liquid MTX due to changing insurers. That question is now moot.
As folic acid is a vitamin it is a supplement, not medication, it falls into the same group as other supplements or alternatives to medication; ergo, is the same as any other vitamin or supplement, no different to. In Rheumatology the dose needed here in UK (5 mg) is only available on prescription. This is needed because as MTX is a folate antagonist we need to support, or increase by supplementing, our folate levels as we can't naturally store the amounts required to help ease side effects from MTX. Hopefully this also answers your further query.
By “not a lone vitamin” I mean it's not the only vitamin (or supplement) which “can change how we metabolise” etc… Therefore I was aware of potential interactions. This follows your observation of potential interactions in replies 2 & 3. I found this list on a simple search if it helps drugs.com/drug-interactions... I specifically chose a US one, our equivalent site provides extensive potential interactions.
I hope this suffices & I haven’t complicated things further. If I have just let me know & I’ll do my best to help.
Why can't you take pills?
They get stuck in my throat. I tried all the tricks, but nothing works.
I would never use natural remedies without running it past professionals. They can be powerful and toxic for some.
And every natural remedy should be on the list of thing you take. While I'm at it, if anyone on here is new to taking methotrexate, take it only once a week, not daily! This stuff can kill you if taken more than once a week. The highest amount is like 25 mg (for r.a.), but if you're newly taking it, you're probably taking only like 15 mg. That's per week. 15 mg once per week.
I thought it was weekly not daily
if anyone on here is new to taking methotrexate, take it only once a week, not daily! This stuff can kill you if taken more than once a week.
It sure is nice that we can change our posts for like a month or two
newly RA
NEWBIE TO RA
What medication are you on for RA?
MTX injected vs MTX pills? What are the pros and cons?
