I have had 3 members recently ask me for help building gloves. I have replied to all 3 that I prefer to do so in open forum, not least to avoid duplication. 2 vanished at that point. The 3rd had wondered whether I was sufficiently local to provide hands on help, and I'm not. I'm in the south of France between Carcassonne and the Spanish border. But asked about schematics. It's much much simpler than that. It needs to be, for I am a bear of very little brain. Let me have a think about whether to ramble on here, or make an "off system" guide as a few others have
Glove building for fun: I have had... - Cure Parkinson's
Glove building for fun
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WinnieThePoo
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How are the gloves working for you WinnieThePoo? Good results?
Yes. Very much so. And either they are building a cumulative effect, or my PD dystonia is having a most welcome "wane" in its cycle. I have posted about my experience on other threads, but since this is intended as a comprehensive summary, I'll cut and paste it again. But this is glove making for the hobbyist thrill of it. I make no claims these gloves do anything apart from keep me occupied
Honestly. I thought I had posted loads on this. Maybe its a bit sprayed all over the shop, and it helps to bring it all together on this thread. If you want to make a daft pair of gloves like mine, just for fun, then I'll walk you through the process. Although, by far the most difficult bit is the glove making itself. I might have to see if Mrs WTP will help us there. Remember, before you even think about playing at this fun DIY hobby, if you want to go the whole hog, you have to find 4 hours a day to play with your new toy. Every day. Believe me, that's a big commitment.
Maybe you should build some vibrotactile shoes, they would be more practical to wear for all those hours and also the "tactors" would be more stable and more reliable.
cut & pasted from a private chat
It's obviously hard (impossible) to tell whether anything is a placebo effect or not, short term in a population of 1. I'm also traditionally wary of anything that it supposed to build over time. But I can only go with what I experience. I was chatting with my wife about this - because she had noticed some dyskenesia creeping in - so I've cut back my sinemet.
I think all of the gloves I tried provided a bit of symptomatic relief. Even the original pair with holes cut in rigger gloves and the exciters fixed in place with insulating tape, provided a bit of relief in use.
But the latest pair, in final trim, are spectacular. Mostly we were discussing my right arm shoulder, neck bicep, forearm , thumb problem. I am waiting for an MRI scan on this (in 2 weeks time). I think there probably is something (torn rotator cuff?) which makes that "system" tense up and be painful and numb. But I now realise it is aggravated by an off- period. For the last month or two (maybe more) when I am "off" I get a tight band round the biceps and chest. On my left side, this is uncomfortable. On my right side, if I have also "strained the system" - by using a computer mouse all day, its bloody agony, and I can't work, and have to get up and walk around.
It got worse and worse during the 3 weeks I wasn't using the gloves, but I still didn't make the connection, and blamed a lousy golf practice session. As soon as I restarted the gloves, about 10 days ago now, it rapidly reduced, and has effectively vanished. I am also taking anti-inflammatories, but that misses the point. This morning, I got up in some discomfort (not really pain) with tight arms both sides. After about 20 minutes with the gloves, it was gone. And that relief lasts longer and longer. It's like the gloves move up the threshold for need for drug relief. So, I have gone from very painful, to no pain, no problems, no "overdose side effect", to no pain, and dyskenesia (mild) and a need to cut back the sinemet.
Also, the weather has finally improved, and we were playing in the pool last night. I might as well not have PD. I could throw and catch our little rugby ball with my left hand, as easily as my right. And the thing I noticed afterwards, was that I was getting on and off the low sunbeds, and turning over whilst on them like an 18 year old. Just a couple of months ago on our holiday in Soustons, I really struggled, and was acutely aware of the PD .
I walk with 2 free swinging arms, no foot drag etc. Mostly I don't feel like I have PD - except ironically the drug overdose elements, when I was conscious of my foot "gyrating" a bit on the sunbed due to very mild dyskenesia
It will be interesting to see whether dyskenesia is a side effect which has to be tolerated in the benefit / side effect mix, or whether adjusting down my medication will allow me the benefits of no PD symptoms, without the bother of side effects.
No - right now, I am looking at these as "the fix" for me. I just hope it sustains
PS - it's changed a bit. I've now had the MRI - GP appointment tuesday. Fiddling with meds, although dyskenesias not currently a problem. The dystonia is the problem. Sinemet relieves sometimes, but sometimes I think aggravates. Not sure how much that is to do with combining with gloves. Short term, acute, I can sit down with tight dystonia (never as bad as during the 3 weeks which scored a 10/10 on the pain scale - worst is about 5 or 6 now, but rarely more than 3). I can sit down in pain, and within 20 minutes its cleared , and stays clear for 2-3 hours afterwards. I am hoping that effect will extend to give me 24/7 after a few months use. I still don't rule out either an old karate injury or a newer injury being part of the mix. May know more on Tuesday.
Also, whilst I didnt really have any of the depression / anxiety sort of issues, I sleep better at night, have more energy during the day, giggle watching tv comedy repeats (Mrs WTP observation) and sing whilst making breakfast
Thanks for the detailed update! This is very exciting.
Wow, that's exciting!! Thanks for posting and giving us hope!! ♥️
I checked out Soustons.
Pretty nice
It is Marc. You must come & visit. Although hundreds of miles of safe, dedicated, mostly flat, tree lined cycle ways are what we love
And the beaches...
A beach at Soustons, Landes, France
Tell me again what town you live in?
My nearest town is Quillan. The neighbouring village is famous as the source of the Da Vinci code story - Rennes-le-chateau
The nearest big (small) city and airport is Carcassonne
La tour magdala - Rennes-le-Chateau
I'm sure you appreciate how beautiful it is. Have you lived there all your life?
No. We moved out here from England 7 years ago
A good friend went in with some of his work friends and bought a vacation home in Uséz. Looks like just a few hours away. We hope to get to visit it in the next year or two. It all looks so beautiful!
It is beautiful. I take it you mean U zes. It's about 3.5 hours from here, north of Montpellier. There is some lovely scenary there, on the eure river, and some lovely places on the coast like sete. It's about 2 hours from carcassonne. Down here we are in the pyrenees.
Briefly - each finger (not thumb) has a "tactor" box fixed to it. The box is strapped in by a bit of cloth tape sewn to some elastic and some velcro. The velcro allows the elastic tightness to be varied. It needs to be just tight enough to hold your finger in place in the finger slot in the plastic tactor box
Tactor in its velcro wrap
So far - just sewing and cutting. The box needs assembling. There is a lid, held on by 2 6mm M3 hex bolts. So the first tool you need is an allen key. Oh heck, buy a set of them. The exciter fits in the box. You will have to solder a thin wire to each of the 2 terminals at either end. They are a bit delicate. Reckon on breaking at least one. So now you need a couple more tools. 3 maybe. I would recommend a good solder station (50 euros) , proper wire strippers (15 euros) and a simple continuity meter (maybe 20 euros). I'll go into more detail later. The wires feed out through holes in the bottom of the box, to the back of the box (furthest from your wrist) into a cloth sleeve sewed by Mrs WTP, across the top of your finger, through a hoop on the front of the glove, to a junction box (clip fit - no soldering) which is held on the back of the glove by a custom made bracket and elastic hoops sewed to the glove.
the whole glove showing the wires in their sleeves
Genius, this next bit, and not all my own work Miss. Cut an ethernet cable in half, and wire it to the other side of the clip fit junction box, secured by the cable clamp on the custom made mount. There are 8 wires in an ethernet cable. Make sure you always wire them to the same colour. So from the connection on the exciter, through all the ethernets, to the back of the amplifier, the + connector for the 1st finger is always orange, the - connector for that finger always orange&white etc
You can then plug an ethernet connector block to the ethernet plug, and plug another ethernet cable into the other side. This means we use a ready made ethernet cable to connect the glove to the amplifier output (actually the resistor block between the amp , which is too powerful) and the gloves. This makes it easy to remove the gloves, and change cable lengths. I have a 1.5m ethernet cable for my left hand and a 2m ethernet cable for my right hand.
The "resistor box" is where there is a bit more soldering - and I suppose, for a laugh, you could draw a schematic. But it's much much simpler than that, if a bit fiddly for a Parkie with a tremor and presbyopia, and no vision in his right eye. You need a bit of "project board". This is fibreglass board with thin copper tracks on one side and lots of holes in it. you have to pick 8 tracks, far enough apart to fit the resistors, but as close as you can to keep the box small. 4 of the tracks, "-" or "return" are uncut. You just solder the amplifier connector leads to one end of the track, and the leads from both gloves to the other end of the track. Match lead colour for colour. It doesnt matter where along the track you solder them. So the right hand glove can be in hole 1, the left hand in hole 4 and the amplifier connection hole 30
The other 4 tracks are high-tech. You need to cut the track in the middle, so the glove half is now disconnected from the amplifier half. This is easiest done with a drill and metal drill bit of about 3mm. Gently. You only want to isolate the front from the back, not drill through to the other side of the board. Use your 20 euro meter to confirm that the 2 halves are not connected. Solder the wires from the amplifier and gloves the same as for the "-" track. And bridge the cut you made with a resistor - one end either side of the cut.
(I'll post a picture later)
Simples!
8 wires come out of the resistor box to an 8 way plug which comes with the amplifier. The wires are connected with a small screw - no soldering. Plug the wired up plug back into the amplifier. Connect the amplifier to the HDMI/Dolby 5.1 extractor using 4 short RCA leads (sometimes called "phono" connectors). I'll put up a parts list and photos later, but the point I am trying to make here is that, mostly, apart from at the glove end, this is just plugging off the shelf boxes together with off-the-shelf leads. Like wiring up your home cinema.
The HDMI extractor is plugged into the Raspberry Pi (a small, cheap, computer -I bought mine for 50 euros used on ebay. New they are only about 100 euros). The size of a cigarette packet. As I said, plug the Pi into the HDMI extractor with - would you believe, an HDMI cable (these are modern TV connector leads).
The Raspberry Pi is fitted with a 3 1/2 inch touch screen display, and mounted in a case designed for that screen. I have finally calibrated the touch screen well enough to use it to start the program, but it is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to buy a cheap wireless USB mouse, and use that to control the pointer, and just use the touch screen as a screen. The program to play the audio file, the audio file, and the operating system for the Pi all fit on a 16GB micro SD card which plugs into the Pi
The Pi, the HDMI extractor, and the amplifier all need a power supply. And all come with one. But I use a couple of cigarrette packet sized batteries to give me portability. These and a few leads to connect them with and a Ryan air cabin bag size hold-all are all you need to finish it
In use - power up the 3 devices, double click on the "gloves.ac3" icon, and fit the gloves on your hands. You'll probably not have the gloves on for the first 2 minutes of the 2 hour file, but that's no big deal. I can supply a disc image via the web which you burn to a micro-sd file ( you'll need a micro SD card, a USB micro sd card adapter, and some software called Win32diskimager, which you can download for free). The sd card from the disc image will contain everything you need pre-configured. Just pop it in the Pi, power up, double click on the file icon, and unplug when you've finished
Not elegant - but just plugging together components. I can supply STL files of the tactor box, lid, plastic washer and plastic screw, hand connector fitting and resistor bank box - which you can then use to order the items from a commercial 3D printer. It should be about 200 euros for all the plastic bits
The exciters are about 8 euros each, and you'll need 8 of them (I would get 10, unless you are very confident about your soldering
Reading it back, it sounds like a lot, but it's all low-tech , mostly plugging one box into another. "How do you eat an elephant? " Answer - "One bite at a time"
Richard,
Since you are making things, would you make a tape recording of yourself singing whilst making breakfast and post it as a link? 😁
Marc
Honest mate, you wouldn't want to hear it
Thank you for all the information. I have a friend working on gloves for me. The gloves, like you said, is the longest part, but he’s trying to get the correct “pattern” in the software. I don’t know anything about it so I can’t really talk the language. I have tried the gloves and they seem to help but just enough to a little on gait, rigidity and for a few days my writing was even legible. Also, I have a very hard time sitting still for 2 hours at a time. Do you think it makes a lot of difference doing 1 hr 2 times a day? I wanted to add, my tremors usually don’t show up until I’m running out of meds. This is still happening but they are much worse now after trying the gloves.
🥊
I think the time spent using the gloves makes a big difference. I try for, and mostly achieve 2x2 hours. I may miss tonight, cos we're going out with friends, I'm behind with work, and I have had a couple of electrical issues to fix
I don't have to sit completely still with them - but I try not to let them move on my finger tips.
The pattern is easy enough to explain. What are you generating it with? I can let you have a 2 hour 4 channel audio file if that helps.
Are you talking about the Djourno?
I don't know. Maybe. If thats what "drives" the system. But I don't recognise it.
I spelled it wrong …..
Arduino is an open-source electronics platform based on easy-to-use hardware and software. Arduino boards are able to read inputs - light on a sensor, a finger on a button, or a Twitter message - and turn it into an output - activating a motor, turning on an LED, publishing something online.
Ah yes. That would be the one. Different sort of system. I think the Arduino is used to control ERM devices, so it sounds like maybe he is building a buzzboard. As discussed on the THERACYCLE thread - they are not really the same. I think the designer has published the pattern for them though.
There are designs for one that sounds almost exactly like yours using Arduino. That's what I'm currently building on. I'm wondering if I need the amps though, as the Arduino will put out a pretty strong signal on the digital pins. I just connected two of the Tetonic 9mm exciters in series and they vibrate the finger tips pretty well. Though I don't have a measurement and don't know what Dr. Tass' gloves "feel" like.
I'm not sure I can help. I'm a bric-a-brac assembler, not a techie. My devices are rated at 3w, Hence the resistor block with the 50w amp. I believe arduino handles analogue signal at 5v 40ma. thats 0.2w and probably not enough. You probably need 1w of power. So you probably need a small amplifier. But if you can feel it vibrate the finger-tip, maybe 200mw is enough.
I don't have an original Tass set either, although I know a couple of people who do. The key is to mount the device so it is in a fixed position on the finger tip in use, and you stick something on the exciter which has a "small" contact point, which you can set to compress the skin by 0.5mm at rest.
I have redesigned my contact screw to be a contact hex bolt, with a 2mm raised "nodule" to emulate the c-mf . The screw thread lets me adjust the resting contact height.
wonder if these could be modified to save time
amazon.ca/Rehabilitation-Ro...
I don't think so Gym
They are a completely different concept designed to help you move your fingers. I've looked plenty, but not found anything remotely similar to the real therapy gloves most people get excited about. My gloves probably cost around $800 to make which is not cheap, but probably less than one 10th of the expected price of the gloves being trialed by Synergic, based on the current price of their parts
WTP can you please comment on how the gloves have impacted your tremor? Thanks
it's hard to say. Tremor isn't really a major issue for me. I get both a resting tremor and an action tremor, but both are well controlled by medication. If I get a resting tremor, it probably lasts no more than 10 or 15 minutes. Irritating but not debilitating. Ironically its the one symptom which stands up and performs when I see Dr Brefel at Toulouse
initially I thought the gloves made them a bit worse. Well it made me aware of them more of the time. Currently, i think that was down to medication gaps as I experimented with cutting my med. I think the gloves have the same effect as my medication. Not just on tremor, but all motor symptoms
A work in progress, but I'm not the best guinea-pig for tremor
Are these gloves covered by patents or copyright? Surely there is someone out there who would love to sell a few for an outrageous price?
Yes they are covered by several patents held by Peter Tass and Stanford. If you were going to manufacture them commercially , you would have to get a one box solution made for my 3 boxes now. This is very much a goatee beard, socks in sandals, heath-robinson home brew project. But by paying careful attention to important details, it does the job.
A commercial implementation would also need FDA / EMA approval. But mostly it would need to deal with Stanfords lawyers. Say 1 million sufferers in the USA, half want the gloves, £2000 profit per pair, that's a billion dollar lawsuit. Which makes Synergics antics a bit puzzling
I’m wearing Synergic gloves 2x 2hrs daily not getting anything near your results
That's a shame. I'm not sure what you're looking for, but I hope you find it soon. It may be something to do with initial symptom levels. I've not had anywhere near Kanwar Bhuttani's results. But I am nowhere near needing a wheelchair (still skiing black runs, I hope, when the snow returns). On my current meds I can easily open a door and enter a room. K B couldn't
I think you are at a very early stage, not needing or using much medication, and so there is maybe less scope to notice any improvement. You couldn't reduce your medication by 4 sinemet a day - because you're not taking 4 sinemet a day! The gloves aren't going to help my wife - who doesn't have PD, or anyone else who doesn't have PD at all. And they are similarly unlikely to do anything dramatic for PWP with only very mild symptoms.
I can hardly walk due to ankle dystonia, foot badly turned and freezing. I used to be an expert skier, I’m certain I couldn’t put on a boot. I’m 62, if this is early stage, I’m hosed
Hi Manypony. Are you currently under the supervision of an MDS specialist for the gloves trial? If so, were you advised to adjust your meds? It is possible that you actually need to reduce your med dosages because your condition is already improving due to the gloves. It may be worth trying this approach for a few days and see what happens.
I’m using mucuna, low dose with carbidopa. No MDS.
Hello Manypony and all, this is my first time posting. I am so excited to hear about Mucuna and low dose Carbidopa. Are there more PWP trying this route? Love to hear from you. thank you.
The glove is also exciting but I have no idea how to begin 
"I can hardly walk due to ankle dystonia, foot badly turned and freezing. I used to be an expert skier, I’m certain I couldn’t put on a boot. I’m 62, if this is early stage, I’m hosed"
That's exciting?
I was referring to Mucuna and carbidopa.
Which is what Manypony uses
I thought I would revisit this one in the light of my cumulative experience with these gloves. They have been very much "a loaded gun" and I can see the case that FDA approval would require them only to be used under medical supervision.
6 months ago rebtar posted
"this seems to be the most significant part of her email.
“Unfortunately, their technology isn’t customized enough to benefit everyone with PD. It helps those with severe tremor. Until they get the algorithm correct for everyone, it still takes fine tuning. “ She also said what has been publicized doesn’t reflect the whole picture. I believe she knows what she’s talking about,
Perhaps it will require individualized algorithm adjustment, like DBS, as each individual’s has their own constellation of symptoms.
I don’t think this should discourage anyone trying to make and test their own gloves. But as with all interventions, with appropriate caution and expectations,"
It's a snowflake disease. Maybe a syndrome. If you look at the membership here there is a huge variation in the way this disease manifests.
Rebtar questioned whether the therapy needs customisation like DBS. All the signs are that the new "racing car" glove Dr Tass is working on will include a monitoring/feedback/customisation of therapy loop.
Rebtar also mentioned an adverse reaction, with an implication of a cover-up. Boy, do I appear to have experienced one of those. Although, touch wood, I appear to have resolved it and moved on to the sunlit uplands of this therapy - in its crude Ford Fiesta format
cgreg mentioned medical supervision and medication adjustment. I think they are essential (although I am hopeful i have resolved matters for myself, i had a GP appointment due yesterday - cancelled at the last minute by the doctor, and now rebooked for the 4th October. And i had already seen him about the shoulder pain I now think was part of the adverse reaction, and been sent for an MRI scan)
Maybe if you made a different choice regarding pharmeceuticals you would not be hosed. I couldn't get a glove on , nor my hand through a pole strap if I didn't use pharmaceuticals.
This is really great news that you’re having positive results!
Hammacher Schlemmer sells these gloves but they don’t offer much control over the vibration:
hammacher.com/product/vibra...
They might give you a nice tingly feeling but they are not going to provide vibrotactile coordinated reset.
It’s very generous of you to post all of this information and patiently answer the many questions.
Hmmm. Over last summer I got a few motors to get busy with. But it also occurred to me to try using exciter "speakers." --is that more what you are using? You mention audio files and amps. I imagine that really IS a lot like a home-theater system at your finger-tips, as it were.
Yes. I'm using Dayton Daex-13 exciters daytonaudio.com/product/129...
Driven by a 4ch amplifier amazon.co.uk/PROZOR-Amplifi...
which plays a 4 channel audio file. The file is generated by a program as a WAV, gets 2 dummy channels added and converted to .ac3 Dolby file. That file is played by a raspberry Pi
amazon.co.uk/Raspberry-Pi-3...
and converted into 4 discreet signals to feed the amplifier by an hdmi dolby 5.1 extractor
WTP, thank you so much for being so generous with your time, expertise, and personal experience with the gloves. It gives all of us PD patients the hope to carry on the fight.
I have a nearly comprehensive parts list on a spreadsheet with links to every item. it excludes postage & delivery (most of mine are free delivery amazon prime). it excludes sewing thread and minor household items. it includes a decent solder station, wire strippers and a multimeter and has a total of 785 euros. i have probably forgotten a few minor items. 3d printing prices are guessed based on my last order and are only for 8off. I would probably suggest 10, to allow for breaking a few. maybe add another 20 euros
What's the recommended way to share a spreadsheet?
Maybe use Google Sheets? (google.com/sheets/about/ ) Kind of an online version of Excel, which you can link to
Thanks - but I wonder if this will work
I have had a few enquiries about "the pattern". I think by now most glovemakers are clear about which patterns to use. I am using RVS (rapidly varying sequence) with 32% temporal jitter. The program which generates the pattern is preloaded with the 24 possible combinations of 4 finger sequences. It runs a sequence every 667ms. each finger fires once for 100ms. there is a 67ms pause after one finger fires before the next one does. Normally - without jitter. jitter means that the 100ms burst , at random, might be as much as 23% late or early. This still means only one finger plays at a time. If the 2nd event is 23ms late, and the 3rd event is 23ms early there is still a gap of 21ms.
There are 3 blocks of 667ms like that, and then 2 667ms blocks of silence (So maybe there are 25 patterns!) And that 3:2:3:2 pattern continues throughout 2 hours. Every time there is a non-silent 667ms block of 4 firings, the sequence is chosen at random from one of the 24 possibilities
This pattern is mirrored. Exactly the same pattern plays on the left hand as the right, in perfect synch
The picture shows what it looks like
6 channels of 250hz 100ms bursts
I think i've sussed the spreadheet link for the parts list
Richard,
A massive thank you for posting all the information needed, where to source the parts and how to build the gloves.
Going to start ordering today and hopefully within the next week or so (once we have all the parts), we'll start to build them.
I'll keep the forum informed on my progress and hopeful improvements in my symptoms.
Many thanks,
Jake & Max
Thank you. I hope it works well for you. I understand the urgency - I was in a hurry to get gloves myself. But it's pretty early days for glove triallers. Whilst I used Mk1,2 & 3 gloves on and off a bit since April, I am only 5 weeks in to using the mk4's. The clinical trial was 3 months, and "normal" seems to be 4 months at 4 hours a day. The results for the 6 people on the 3 month trial were quite a spread. It's a snowflake disease (syndrome?)
Just be aware of the potential need to adjust meds, and the merits of having a medical professional along for the ride. I am seeing my GP tomorrow.
CBailey asked for the STL files for my housings a few weeks ago, and I sent them to him. He is planning to try his control box with my fingertips. If that works well, his box is going to be much smaller, neater, and less expensive than my Pi, HDMIx, and amplifier.
I can let you have those STL files and others for the mounting jig etc if you PM email contact details. I'll try to work out how to share them direct online, but I have promised myself I will get some accountancy done today!!
Once again, thank you for your generousity in sharing your findings, workings and plans.
We've now found an old friend who is a whizz, who has offered the assistance we need.
You're welcome. I'll also organise a disc image for the Pi SD card with the touchscreen configured and Vimeo configured and the ac3 file you need for a 2 hour fun fun fun session. It should just be a question of plugging the card into the Pi, powering up, and double clicking on the "6 channel audio.ac3" file, and then the frantic scrabble to put the gloves on before you waste too long from your 2 hours. I think the next time I make a file, I'm going to build a 2 minute "run-in" time on the front
Hi Richard,
I hope all is going well with you and your gloves.
After speaking with my friend who is building the gloves, he has stated that some linux programming needs to be done to control the gloves.
I have found someone with linux programming skills, but they need guidance on the programming side.
Can you assist?
Thanks for your continued assistance.
Jake
No. You don't need any linux programming. You just need to play the 2 hour 6 channel audio file. It's really 4 signal channels and 2 silent channels to make a ac3 file. That's if you are going to use the raspberry pi route.If you want to use a windows PC I could send you a 4 channel flac file (when I get home from my wedding trio). You would need a suitable 4 channel sound card.
If you are using a Pi then it can be a bit of a fiddle getting it to play ac3 files. If you have a Pi 3 I should be able to send you a disc image with the audio file and a pre-configured operating system
Failing that I'll try to produce a configuration guide when I get back
Thanks once again. Enjoy your weddings!!
No problem. How are you planning to drive the exciters? Are you using the items in my build spreadsheet or is your friend using something else? And if "something else" - what?
I'm speaking with James later, I'll let you know.
Hi. Looking to just copy the design that was posted online
OK. In which case, you will be using a raspberry pi 3 B+With a Joy-it pi 3.5 TFT touchscreen and a custom case.
This is a small low power computer which has it's operating system on a micro sd card, together with all programs and datafiles
I am running a linux operating system on it and use a free audio player called VLC to play a 6 channel audio file called 6ch_120min. ac3.
Raspberry pi 3 with touchscreen
To play the file, you just double click on the icon you can see in the middle of the screen. So no programming required
I can produce an identical copy of the data on my 32gb microSD card and save it as an image file, which I can make available to you. You then "burn" that image to your own 32gb microSD card using a free program you can download called Win32Diskimager
You just then have to put the microSD card in the Pi, and when it powers up you will see the screen in the image above, and just double click on the .ac3 file - and leave it to the VLC player to play your pattern.
I'll sort it out when I get home. You will almost certainly find that the touchscreen is poorly calibrated and hard to use. The solution, is one of these
amazon.co.uk/TeckNet-M002-C...
just plug the usb dongle into one of the 4 usb ports on the Pi
Touchscreen
Which linux distro did you use?
A question from someone assisting with the build.
I think raspbian (raspberry pi os). I'll check. But it will be included on the micro sd card disk image, so your friend doesn't need to know. Just plug in the card and everything should work.
Thanks Richard,
That's great. When do you think I can get the disk image?
As always, grateful for your help.
Jake
I'll be home Saturday. I should be able to do it then. If it behaves
That's great
I've sent you a link to the disk image. I have tested it - it needs to be burned to a 32Gb micro sd card. Most come with an adaptor to full SD card size. If your windows PC doesnt have a reader you can get USB readers.
If you have a Pi3 with a joy-it 3.5 inch touch screen it should just work.
If not, we'll have to investigate
Thank you once again Richard
Hi I hope you are well. I'm trying to make a set of gloves for a very good friend (JakeMax) but I would like to know if you have a schematic or at least a drawing. I have read through the instructions but I am lost on several things. - where the resistors go, values etc. A simple wiring diagram would be great. BR James
It really is a VERY simple wiring diagram. The amplifier output is an 8-way block with screw terminals. It needs an 8 way cable to 8 tracks on the prototype board. 4 of the tracks are "return" and just solder the wires to the J45 lead (to the glove ) to the other end.
So 4 47 ohm 3w series resistors (to protect 3w devices from 50w amplifier output). 4 tracks have the return from the amp at one end (one wire) to the glove return at the other end (2 wires). 4 tracks have one wire one end, 2 the other, and a break in the middle made by using a suitable drill bit (just break the track, don't drill through the board) and the break is bridged by the resistor
resistors on prototype board
Ok - a schematic
wiring diagram for resistor block
Hi , I put together some infor specifically for PWP folks with no Tech knowledge , newbies , DIYers etc. Cheers.
Wiring Infor
Brilliant. Thank you. Just a word of caution. I bought 5 core cable originally, planning to use a comment ground. And then bottled it. There is no continuity at the amp and I couldn't find schematics or even a reliable spec sheet.But I think it's class d, so may be a differential output, in which case common ground might blow the amp. I'm using 8 core ethernet for the cabling so it was no big deal running 8 core from the smp
Hi , This tip may you and other PWP ... Cheers,
DIY verotool for PWP with tremors , dexterity issues etc. and save $$ ..
Hi , Check out the wiring infor I just posted. 😀
Hi. Richard. That is brilliant. Thank you. best James
Thanks Richard
HI Richard. Is there an audio file (WAV/ AC3) available ? I know you are a busy chap. No rush as we will be getting the parts and building over the next few weeks. Ahh.. I see you are preparing a disc image of some sort for JakeMax.... BR James
I'm struggling a bit with the image because it's 32gb. And I'm reluctant to start fiddling because I need to focus on the day job. I'll solve it somehow even if we end up sending it in the post. In the meantime, if you want to try it and are good with linux I can send you the ac3 easily enough. I just have to be ready to travel back for this wedding at the weekend
Hi. I totally understand. I have a day job too hahaha... so I understand how much time you really have to devote to this. The ac3 file is OK. I can figure out how to do the rest 'I think'. I have a small studio and can run ac3 files with no problem.
I wish I'd known you 4 months ago. It was a nightmare trying to get vimeo and the extractor to talk to each other. Been stable for 4 months now 😊
just found the other building thread.. 250hz .. 25 pulses per 100ms
Maybe you can share with everyone else, what is obvious to us about using an erm with an 80ms rise time and 90 ms fall time for a task like this. That's the cheap popular alternative DIY.
This one also played a big role in my design parameters. My aim has been imitation not innovationpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/289...
seems that the audio side of things is the hardest part. As an aside, what frequency are you firing every 100ms? Is it around 8Khz or higher? I bet you say lower .. hahaha
250hz. As a new boy you'll find the methods and analysis section of this interestingfrontiersin.org/articles/10...
James
on the audio side, with your professional experience
1) can you produce Dolby 5.1 FLAC files from a WAV (the WAV is 3.56GB)?
2) any ideas for an affordable, compact, 8 channel sound card with reliable linux drivers. I can't use a 7,1 extractor because the SW channel rolls off at 150Hz
Richard
Thank you. That is indeed the whole of the circuit. You and I know that means I've just made this from bolt-together components, and were it not for the need to solder wires to the exciter terminals, the whole thing is a plug together lego kit. If I had found a 5W output amp, or we made that resistor block with solderless board it would have been only wiring the exciters
digikey.fr/fr/products/deta...
But that'll scare a few non-techies. The problem with you diagram, is that when I test from one ground to another the meter reads "1". (Ground -is the upside down triangle symbol ). I am still inclined to go the 8 wire route, because its not hard and I'm using ethernet cable. And because I'm not sure I properly understand differential / balanced output in power amps. WTP - a bear of very little brain. Do you not need a coupling capacitor to overcome the DC offset?
Anyway - I'll explain what I did (eventually) and why. First here's a picture of that amplifier terminal block unplugged from the amp and wired to the board
8 way connector wired to circuit board
So, this is the other end of the board. I use a 1m ethernet cable and cut the 2 plugs off with just a short bit of cable on them (5cm?). The neatly stripped cables are wired to the board, and meant to be held secure by the cable clamp. The plugs are plugged into RJ45 through-connectors, and the lead to the gloves is plugged into that. This provides a neat facility for unplugging the glove leads and using different length leads. I use a 1.5m ethernet for the left glove and a 2m ethernet for the right glove (because my holdall with the amp/hdmi/Pi is on my left as I sit here.
The through connector and cut-up moulded lead avoid the need to wire up RJ45 sockets - which can be tricky. Having cut off the 2 plugs, I have 80cm of 8 core cable available
I cut up another 1m moulded ethernet cable for the glove end
RJ45 connectors wired to circuit board
And you have reminded me (with talk of no continuity on the amplifier grounds) that I included an inexpensive multi-meter on my parts list. So, for those with no electronics experience - you can do a few checks. Set the meter to ohms and the range to the lowest (200 on my meter in the photo). Test its working by touching the red lead to the black. The reading should go from "1" to "0" (0r a very low number like 0.1 or 0.2)
On the tracks that you have cut for the resistor, before you put the resistor in place, put one lead from the meter on one side of the cut, as close as possible, and the other lead the other side of the cut. You should get no change - still "1". This checks you have completely cut the circuit
Now, with everything wired up, put one lead on one track and the other lead on the next nearest track at the same end of the board. You should get "1". This checks you haven't accidentally joined 2 tracks with less-than-perfect soldering
Finally put one lead on the screw on top of the amp plug-in block and the other end of the lead on the same coloured wire at the other end of the board. You will need to do this 8 times - one for each colour of wire. If it is one of the "-" connectors on the amplifier that you are testing then you should get "0". If it is one of the "+" connectors (with a resistor) then you should get 47 (well, between 45 and 50)
a multimeter for testing circuits
Query
query
I can try
8 way terminal block plugged into amplifier
And without the plug fited
back of amplifier
This was my concern
Bridged Output amplifiers (also known as differential output amplifiers) transmit equal but opposite voltage through the speakers’ positive and negative output terminals. This means both the positive and negative terminals are active.
This configuration doubles the voltage that is sent to the speakers. And it also increases the speaker output level up to 4 times what a single-ended output amplifier or receiver can deliver.
As you can already tell from this brief explanation, this configuration is completely different from a single-ended output amp. Bridged output amplifiers and receivers have no common ground. The negative terminal also carries a signal, so you should never connect it to ground.
It’s also a bad idea to connect it to any other terminal on the amplifier as if they were common ground. That’s because each terminal on a bridged output amplifier transmits a signal, and connecting them can be a hazard.
When you connect the negative terminal on the amp to another terminal or even to ground, you are essentially shorting out a voltage source. That can lead to a high current in the amplifier. And if the amp or receiver has no overcurrent protection, this will easily damage it.
With a differential amplifier, you should also never connect multiple speakers’ negative terminal to a single negative terminal on the amp. Each speaker should have its own terminal to connect to.
A bridged amplifier illustration
Pls provide the Power Amp model #. Thanks
I didn't know you were using a diff pair o/p. Hence, the grounds should be SEPARATE .
Its a cheap chinese generic - prozor. As I posted elsewhere I couldn't find schematics or even a definite spec, so I played safe. This is a link to buying one
nepal.ubuy.com/en/product/5...
however it appears to be discontinued. This is going to call for a plan B
Phew - found one amazon.co.uk/PROZOR-Amplifi...
I will redraw the circuit and modular layout. This should avoid any potential hiccups for the those not familiar with tech and the intricacies. Best to be 'crystal' clear and help other folks ( with or without PD ) to get it right - first time and save on debugging .
I've found one in stock for now amazon.co.uk/PROZOR-Amplifi...
Regarding the ethernet cable I connect all 8 cables, partly for fear that it is a balanced output, and mostly because they are there and its no more difficult than having a common return and bridges
Diagram1 of 3
Diagram 1 of 3
really good diagrams. thank you. makes me feel very scruffy.
the only thing i would want to emphasise for the real newbies is that at the glove end the 2 wires are not side by side. they are one in front of the other, i have printed a big case for this board and there is loads of room. the 2 glove wires can be anywhere on the line beyond the resistor joint. if the holes are numbered from the glove end, then you might have the amp cable in 20, first resistor wire in 16, hole cut at 12, 2nd resistor wire in 8, left hand glove in 5 and right hand glove in 2
And on that theme 3w resistors are quite fat, so you'll probably need at least one empty track per pair
Diagram 2 of 3
Diagram 2 of 3
brilliant. again i have 2 rj45 connectors per hand. one at the resistor box end and one at the glove end. And an ethernet cable between the ends. 1.5m cable for the hand nearest the bag with the Pi/HDMI/amp & batteries, and a 2m one on the other side.
Nuromod has thoroughly documented the very simple construction at the amplifier end. it is very simple stuff. So it makes sense for me to describe the glove end a bit more. Once again I have cut a regular 1m ethernet cable and put a through-connector on the plug. That means you can connect the glove to the resistor box using interchangeable standard ethernet cables.
It also helps if, like me, you always get your kite string or fishing reel in a birds nest tangle. The wires from the ethernet plug go into an 8 way "snap-connect" block.
Keep the same cable colours. Well - same pairs of colours. So if your first 2 tracks on the resistor board were orange / white&orange, then make the connection to the index finger with the same orange / white&orange.
The block makes it easy to install & remove for servicing, the wired-up finger tip boxes. The block is a bit fiddly with very thin ethernet cables, so I "tin" them. There are plenty of you-tube videos about how to solder. youtube.com/watch?v=Qps9woU...
which reminds me I missed an essential tool from the parts list - you will need a "helping hands"
I have these
amazon.fr/Rolson-60335-Outi...
but these look good
temu.com/fr/kuiper/n9.html?...
And here is how to tin wire
youtube.com/watch?v=pRPF4wp...
Glove with wiring connections
The snap-connector block is modular and maybe only available from France. I have 8 connectors joined as one block. In one side is the wire from the RJ45 plug. In the other side is the wire from the finger block. Just lift the orange lever, insert the cable, and snap the lever shut. Make sure the wire goes right in to the stop. Give it a gentle pull after snapping the lever shut. And make sure you have plenty of tinned bare wire, and so avoid catching the insulation instead of the wire.
In addition to the plug-in cable convenience, the blocks add useful stability to the glove. Sue has also sewn some wide elastic to the glove edge, to provide stability and make them easier to pull on.
The block has a custom made bracket fitted to it. This is to provide a cable-clamp. The snap-block and clamp are held on the glove by 3 elastic straps sewn to the glove.
If you can't get the snap-connectors a regular screwblock will do the same job, and the bracket could be super-glued to it.
The bracket mount, resistor box, and all finger box parts can be made for you for a few euros each by online 3D printing manufacturers like xometry
if you send them stl files of the parts
connector blocks
Fully portable design. I wore the gloves in the car today. Not to drive! We are driving back to the UK for a wedding. I did the first 2 hour shift. And then Sue drove for 2 hours and I had a glove session 😊
That's fantastic that you're willing to provide online help to us who are trying to build our own.
My question right now is: do I have the vibration pattern algorithm that will best work for me?
( I have been using the gloves for 5 weeks, with no results yet.)
Peter
in Toronto Canada
I think the next development will be tailoring the patterns to individual needs. I am going to try to implement a new variant once I am sure I understand it.For now I am sticking with the pattern Dr Tass has mostly used (with the addition of temporal jitter. Imitation not innovation!
Which glove design have you made?
What pattern have you been using?
Thanks for asking those two questions Winnie.
To describe my gloves I'd be best to send a photo.
My Homemade glove design
Thank you for the picture. I can't see for sure what you are using to generate the vibration at the fingertips but it is almost certainly an erm "coin" device. Whilst there have been some people reporting therapeutic benefits from such devices, they are not the same as the devices used by Peter Tass. His whole vibrotactile approach is built around the response of mechanoreceptive skin cells to vibratory perpendicular sinusoidal skin displacements. Read some of my posts and replies on the subject for more information.The vibration device needs to
1 stay still and not slop about
2 act perpendicular to the skin in a small area (8mm circle)
3 start and stop very quickly (instantly)
4 vibrate for 100ms at, or very close to 250hz
5 compress the skin a bit at rest (0.5mm)
6 make a very small amplitude vibration. I find the best results with close to 0.03mm peak to peak (-30 db) vibration
Until you deal with those points the vibration pattern is not going to make much difference (if any difference at all)
Which pattern have you been using?
Thank you thank you so much for excellent detail response!!
Thank you thank you so much for excellent detail response!!
Thank you so much Winnie for your reply!This is Peter in Toronto... I so much appreciate you.
Since my PD condition produces so much anxiety, I'm asking my friend Alan to continue the communication with you. He is my advocate and personal technician building the gloves.
I hope that's okay with you. Sincerely,
Peter in Toronto
I was on Adafruit looking for parts for another project and saw this tiny and cheap amplifier board. It is non differential so it has potential to change the wring from 8 lead CAT5 to USB 4 + ground. Mainly it is small, solderless and cheap at $5. You would need 4 but no resistors I think.
Thoughts?
small amp PCB
Sorry to post ideas without any testing but perhaps this is a radical, although fairly expensive simplification. I finally found a PI add on board that has 4 channel analog audio output.
"The Beocreate 4 channel amplifier is a very flexible DSP/DAC/amplifier combination board designed for high-quality music playback in combination with passive loudspeakers."
hifiberry.com/shop/boards/b...
It is $200 and would certainly require modification to the PI drivers and playback but I do not know how complex that might be. Anything from installing their OS to hours of dinking.
The board is also a beast with up to 30W power on all channels. Some level setting in software would be required.
However the end result might be a single box, single power supply glove controller. Depending on how sexy you wanted the output you could attach the 2 CAT5 patch "dongles" or draw up a custom case with mounted connectors.
Happy to collaborate if anyone is interested. I haven't the courage/motivation to pull the trigger on this experiment without encouragement. 👍 Perhaps someone who has gloves built already is interested!
I think both ideas have potential. And I had considered both. Well, not specifically the adafruit, but similar small devices. I probably could build one successfully but I would prefer to "phone a friend". I'm not sure it would be significantly more compact and it would still require some soldering. It probably just has enough gain. But the volume control would be fiddly and maybe a bit intimidating for some. If I were building a series for others, I'd probably look at these. As mentioned before I'm not good at electronics, but I think the output is differential. It's certainly not common ground (it's the input which is not differential). Not that 8 cables are a problem.
The beocrate was an attractive idea for a 4 channel sound card, when I was struggling with linux audio and the hdmi extractor. It's also about 1/3 more expensive than my 2 boxes, probably still needs the resistors for protection. And is almost certainly going to need some configuration.
Sorry Ctime.
It's the middle of the night here. Mrs WTP was up for the bathroom, and is now snoring like a pneumatic drill, and I have 30 September deadlines, so I decided to get up
The amplifier I am using was apparently discontinued, although I notice an identical model has appeared by another Chinese manufacturer amazon.co.uk/Bluetooth-Digi...
But it might be helpful to have an alternative. I am planning some "tidying up" on my current solution, so I might have a go at seeing if I can build something with the adafruit boards.
I have ordered some PCB mount RJ45's on breakout boards, and plan to replace the glove connectors with them. The solderless block is great for prototyping but a bit klutsy now.
I might try to get a proper pcb built for the resistor board too.
But - after 30 September
Hello Winnie, I am a friend of Peter who goes by PetroaMichaels. I have been helping him make his gloves and we were wondering where you got you finger cradles/pads from or did you make them? Are they available to buy or is there a program available to make ourselves with a 3D printer ?
I created them using tinkercad. If you send me your email address in a chat, I will send you the stl files. If you have a 3d printer then you can print them yourself. Or send them to a commercial printer to have printed for you at a cost of about 4 euros an item. 15 euros per finger. about 120 euros in total
Hello WinnieThePoo, I am a friend of Peter who goes by PetroaMichaels. I have been helping him make his gloves and we were wondering where you got you finger cradles/pads from or did you make them? Are they available to buy or is there a program available to make ourselves with a 3D printer ? Looking forward to your reply!
Hi Winnie, I am located in Wales, UK. I have a good friend that was recently diagnosed with Parkinsons. As I have the facilities and knowledge I have agreed to make him a pair of gloves. Is there a single point such a GitHub where I can download the 3D (stl) print files, circuit diagrams and software? As part of the build I will gladly give feedback here on the build including any changes/improvements made.
i really should learn how this git-hub malarky works. I have been supplying the stl files by an email link if you "chat" your email address. I can supply a link to an ac3 file which is my software if you plan to use an audio player and dolby 5.1. Or my friend who wrote the software to produce the 4 ch wav file which I convert to ac3 has published on github .
Neuromod has supplied some schematics on this thread. But it's really simple. The exciters are a loudspeaker. Phase is not critical. wire the speakers to the terminals of a suitable 3w power amp, preferably with a gain pot per channel, and feed signal to the power amp using a suitable 4 channel device. It's just a home cinema audio device to be connected together.
I use a convenient chinese 4ch power amp to connect to the speakers which is rated at 50w per channel, so on each channel i wire a 50ohm 5w resistor in series with one of the 2 connections from the amp to exciter. How easy is that? if you can find a 4 channel 3w amp then you dont need resistors
i play my ac3 file using vimeo on a raspberry pi3 and extract 4 audio channels to feed the input of the chinese power amp using a dolby 5.1 hdmi extractor since the Pi outputs its audio via hdmi. You could use vimeo on a PC or Mac and a 4 ch usb sound card like the umc404hd instead of the Pi and HDMI5.1 extractor but its bulkier. My setup is "mobile" in a small holdall
It's like connecting up a tv from Currys. (for non-techies-if you can connect up a tv from currys and solder some joints, you can build these gloves.) I can supply the stl's and the ac3 , if you let me have your email in a chat.
Hi, I have started to build my glove electronics and could really do with that ac3 file to start processing the audio. Also, do you have a link to the Gitbhub project that produces 4 ch wav files? I sent you a contact email by message recently. Sorry to hassle you as I know you are a busy person.
Hi
I can send you the information if I have an email address. I cant see anything obviously "steamnut" in my chat folder on this forum, nor my emails, nor my SPAM. I upgraded my hard drive to 1TB ssd recently and Outlook promptly "forgot" all my contacts, so wont autofill if I start typing "steam"
I think you are building gloves for Jake, and I sent him the ac3 on 5th September. I can send again if someone confirms an email address privately
Sorry, I missed your message too! I will direct message my email address to you. I am building a pair of gloves for my client but ~I think it is his wife who is a member here. Apart from the exciters, which I have yet to order, the parts cost is a lot less than some of the solutions I have seen here. I am happy to share my designs and, if there is a need, I will be able to supply kits or systems if it helps others.
Hi, sorry for the delay. I have send a private with my email address.
A revision of the glove wiring. It still needs some loops on the straps to keep the cables tidy but it's less klutzy than the solderless version
Glove with wires
Hi WTPThanks for this helpful thread.
Couldn't I simplify the design as follows
1. Get a laptop to play the audio file (can you share ?)
2. Laptop connects to a 5.1 receiver with HDMI cable
3. Instead of connecting speakers, I connect the Dayton exciters to the speaker outputs of the receiver.
Let me know before I spend cash to put this together
Thanks
certainly it's possible to skin the cat a different way. Originally I used a laptop with a USB Sound card (UMC404HD) to feed the four channel amplifier. The Dolby 5.1 hdmi solution arose because the raspberry pi outputs its sound via HDMI. I can supply an audio file in ac3 or flac format and you can just try it. If you send me a private message with your email address I can send you a link to the files. I use the Chinese 4 channel amplifier because it's convenient to have a gain control on each channel. You are still likely to need some means of attenuating the output. I'm sure an audio engineer could come up with something less klutsy than my series resistors. I am really busy with work at the moment so may not finish this until Christmas but there have been a number of minor revisions and improvements since I originally wrote this thread. In particular I am now looking at building gloves using smaller DAEX-9-4SM excitor. Other changes include longer slots in the holders to make fitting the wired up exciters more straightforward, RJ45 cables and connectors with a much more compact box on the gloves and smaller curly cables with small connectors on the gloves.
vibrotactile gloves
copied from another thread, Tunasalad wrote:
Hi Winnie, I think I see from posts that you have made or have attempted to make DIY gloves VERY similar to the Dr. Tass gloves, is this correct? Or, are you using the btactic ones? Thanks very much for your answer, Melodi
WTP replied
I have made gloves which attempt to copy peter tass design as closely as possible. I don't use the bhaptics
Melodi replied
Hi Winnie, Do you mind if I ask how your Gloves have been working for you? Have they improved ANY of your PD symptoms? It sounds like you have been using them for months now. Thanks, Melodi
WTP
It's been a mixed experience developing the gloves and adapting to them, but I would struggle without them now. The problem is that 4 hours a day is a huge commitment. I hope soon to reduce my usage to 2 hours a day and then maybe 2 hours every other dayI missed too many sessions earlier this week and needed to get a couple of 4 hour days in to get back on track
They help with all motor symptoms
Tunasalad
Hi Winnie, That is quite amazing to hear. Do you mind if I ask how long it took to develop yours? Once developed, we’re they ready to go for you, or was there some tweaking necessary for you specifically? Thanks Again, Melodi
WTP
I developed them. I am on the mk4 version currently. I hope to produce a mk5 version over Christmas. I am also hoping to produce some new pattern files (audio tracks). The core concept is unchanged but they have become more comfortable, robust and effective.As for 'ready to go " I have been on my own trying to figure things out. Everyone is an individual and will respond differently but there are probably some things that apply universally. In particular, you are going to need to balance the gloves with existing medication, and" less is more " when it comes to signal amplitude.
My design is not very commercial or slick. It is a bit of an amateur rafia work effort. But it is simple to build, mostly just plugging together existing equipment.
If a neighbour asked me to build a pair from scratch, once the various items had arrived in the post it would probably take me a day to make them. You need to be able to use a soldering iron and sewing machine. Or have a friend who can, and is willing to help. In my case my wife did all the sewing
You then need to actually use them every day. 4 hours. 2x2hours a day probably for at least 3 months, maybe longer. Maybe much longer. That is not easy.
Tunasalad
Hi Winnie, Do you mind, when you get a chance, telling me about how your gloves are working for you on your motor symptoms, like in what ways mostly? Thanks, appreciate it very much! Melodi
WTP
It's a bit complicated. First, the gloves also help with non-motor symptoms. Last night my wife commented that I was giggling again and had been for some months. She thinks it's the gloves. I'm also much less tired during the day, and generally feel like I don't have Parkinsons. A friend said to me the other day when I was discussing the gloves with him quotes you "should have taken a video". But the likes of tap tests, walking with swinging arms, getting up out of chairs, are fairly normal for me anyway with medication. You can't video pain, fatigue, toe curling sensations, numbness and tingling, or other common symptoms.
So taking tremor for example, it is rarely noticeable at all for me when I'm on my normal medication. Without medication it's quite a pronounced tremor, but normally on my medication tremor isn't an issue for me. With the gloves it's a question of coordinating the gloves with medication. If I under-medicate in combination, I get a classic low frequency smooth tremor usually in the little finger of my left hand. If I over-medicate in combination then I get a jerkier higher frequency tremor, which tends also to be an intention tremor, or even dyskenesia
The most obvious motor symptom that is dramatically helped by the gloves is painful dystonia in my shoulder and neck arm wrist and thumb. Without the gloves my current level of medication is inadequate to treat this problem. With the gloves I can risk over medicating which also causes dystonia. But when I get it right, and it has been right for the last couple of weeks, then I am comfortable, walking with swinging arms, and full freedom of movement in my neck, no pain, and a general feeling of normality.
Another aspect we noticed when I was in the UK and resting the gloves was the extent to which I would feel the cold, shivering and gradually locking up and finding it difficult to walk or move. Again, with the gloves this is resolved.
It's definitely not as simple as using the gloves and all the symptoms vanish. There is something of an art in balancing the gloves with medication, but it is well worth getting right. I'm probably gonna regret saying this, but I seem to have mastered the art of tweaking either of the two parameters. So this week when sometimes due to component failures I have missed glove time, I compensate by adding medication. The goal is to replace medication with the gloves as much as possible, and to reduce glove time to something much more sustainable than 4 hours a day. I think I them on track, probably averaging 3 hours a day this week and looking to track down to 2 hours a day after Christmas. And that is on 4 sinemet a day instead of 8. We'll see how it works out
Tunasalad
Thank you Winnie for a very informative and descriptive idea of what you are doing trying to balance the medication and the glove usage. Also, do I understand you correctly when you said that your non-usage of the gloves in the UK caused your PD motor symptoms to decline even with your regular amount of Sinemet? If so, that shows a definite correlation to the glove’s ability for at least some improvement in that area of PD decline. Do you reside in the US? Do you take any other meds besides the Sinemet? They are doing a study in the US and the UK right now, you are probably already aware of, using non-invasive headphones called neuro modulation that stimulates activity in the brain, I am wondering how THAT stimulation would compare to the glove stimulation? My thoughts are that the gloves are much more complex in the ways that you have previously described in many ways. I am not exactly sure about the patterns, degree of hz, ( maybe there’s no hz). or if they are ANYTHING at all comparable to the gloves in stimulation? Do you understand the neuro-modulation process in any way? I am very impressed with your ability to develop your own gloves, are you an engineer? Winnie, I hope I am not bothering you with these questions, I am just amazed at your tenacity, fortitude, and ability to GET to where you are now, and, adding to that, you are still in process of tweaking and improving your gloves! I seriously appreciate any and all information you are so kindly willing to share with me about your opinions and experiences. Thanks SO VERY much, Winnie. Sincerely, Melodi Happy Holidays to you and your wife!
WTP
Thank you Melodi - and likewise - happy holidays. Here goes
Yes - in the UK I had problems even on full Sinemet - but it was only a 5 day break and I phased the increase. I was probably only back up to 8 a day for the last couple of days (I take 10/100 not 25/100 because its all that's available in France)
I reside in France
I take 1.05mg Pramipexole extended release once a day as well as the sinemet
There is lots of neuromodulation about - but as far as I am aware , only Stanford and Synergic are trying to use stimulation of peripheral receptors to create long-term enduring effects through coordinated reset. You can stimulate the brain with skin vibrations, visual stimuli, auditory stimuli and others - but this is usually about having a direct immediate therapeutic effect. Coordinated reset is about using those stimuli to disrupt unwanted synchronised patterns of neuronal activity by using patterns of stimulation to achieve this effect. It's origins, and most of the research, does that by sending electrical signals down wires in the brain (DBS equipment is used to deliver the stimulus patterns). Using a vibrotactile non-invasive delivery system of those patterns is the new development. But the key to the therapy is the desynchronisation of unwanted neuronal rythmns - not the direct therapy of other systems.
I'm not an engineer - but I have some good friends who are.
Hz - is the unit of measurements of frequency. It is "cycles per second". So if you watch a record going round on a record player at 33 rpm, it makes a complete revolution (cycle) every 2 seconds, so that is 0.5 cycles every second or 0.5Hz (a low frequency). The vibration used in the Stanford gloves at the finger-tips is at 250Hz - or 250 cycles per second - too fast to count! The pattern used stimulates each finger once per cycle, and that involves 100ms of vibration at 250Hz in each finger, and 67ms of silence - so 4x167ms each cycle is 667ms per cycle or 0.67 seconds per cycle which equals 1.5Hz (Its 3 complete cycles every 2 seconds)
Now you know!
Tunasalad
Hi Winnie, Thank you first for your medications info, second, I appreciate the neuromodulation information. On that topic, do you think there is a difference between using pheriperal receptors stimulation on the fingers, (as with the gloves), vs stimulation of the brain with auditory stimuli? The few studies done with the auditory headset stimulation may not have coordinated reset, or enough of it, so, I was wondering your thoughts on that. Besides that, do you think the auditory stimulation would be lacking the amount of total hz and frequently needed, and could that be an issue? Thank you for your thoughts, opinions, and suggestions. I was also pleasantly surprised you reside in the wonderful country of France. I am of French heritage and am planning on visiting in the near future. I know some French, but, have been studying up! So, Merci Beaucoup! Hope to hear back from you and hope your MK-5’s are coming along well. Au Revoir, Seriously, thanks! Melodi
WTP
Dealing with the easy ones first, congratulations on learning some French for your trip to France. If you haven't already seen them I would take a look at the cds by Michel Thomas as a good way to get started. Do you still have family here? Where in France are you planning to visit. It may be smaller than the USA but it's still a big country. I made a start on the 3d printing for the mk5 yesterday and it needs refining. I also made progress with the code for the new pattern audio file.
Now for the trickier one. The only coordinated reset projects that I am aware of, apart from diy projects like mine, is the work at Stanford by Peter Tass, and the testing by Synergic in Oregon. Briefly, Synergic appear to have been in a partnership with Stanford to physically build the glove that is used by Stanford in their tests, and they appear to have fallen out. Stanford now have a new partner for building the gloves and Synergic are attempting clinical trials for FDA approval for the glove they manufactured. However, Stanford have a patent which Synergic's work would appear to infringe. Nobody else is working on coordinated reset.
It may well be possible to use auditory stimuli for Parkinsons coordinated reset. Peter Tass has already used auditory stimuli for coordinated reset for tinnitus. However, for Parkinsons disease, as a non invasive alternative to deep brain stimulation, he has only investigated vibro-tactile stimulation of the skin.
I don't think you have quite got to grips with Hertz and frequency yet. There are two issues. Or rather, two frequencies to consider. The first frequency gets most of the discussion on this forum is what Peter Tass refers to as F burst. The frequency of the vibration used to send a signal to neurons in the brain to make them fire the way he wants them to. Think of it like notes on a piano. Low notes vibrate at a low frequency and high notes vibrate at a high frequency. The frequency used by Peter Tass in his published clinical work, and that I use, is 250 Hz. That frequency is the note B just to the left of the keyhole on a piano. It's the white key just to the right of three black notes and left of the keyhole. Many of the other diy projects use a frequency of 170 Hz. That is an F note, the white note at the left end of the three black notes. There are four sorts of receptor in the skin, and Peter Tass tries to use just one of them (FA2) which responds best to frequencies of 250 Hz, without also stimulating the other sorts, because they might confuse the pattern. But in a paper he published he outlined several different possibilities for using different receptors to achieve the same effect and stimulating FA2 receptors at 250 Hz was just the preferred option he chose of several others.
Okay so that's the first frequency explained
The other frequency is how often that F burst frequency is fired to disrupt the problem brain patterns. This frequency he calls f stim. The frequency of stimulation, or how often the stimulation occurs. This is to disrupt the unwanted pattern of synchronisation in the brain. Typically in Parkinsons disease this synchronisation as a frequency between 3 Hz and 20 Hz. In addition to firing when they're supposed to the neurons all fire together at the unwanted frequency. Let's take a frequency of 10 Hz. That's 10 times a second. To make it easier we'll slow that 100 times so down to 0.1 Hz or once every 10 seconds. Imagine the neurons in your brain are people at a football stadium. They will all get up and down at different times to go to the toilet fetch a coffee, buy a programme, enter and leave their seats. That's what they're supposed to be doing. But they have learned a bad habit and they all stand up together and sit down again very quickly every 10 seconds. Everyone in the stadium at exactly the same time. And this tends to muddle and confuse the activities that they are supposed to be undertaking. So the intention of Peter Tass treatment is to break up this unwanted learned behaviour by getting groups of people to stand up and sit down at different times. He uses small groups and gets them to stand up and sit down at a different frequency in a random pattern.
F stim is how often his group's stand up. It is 1½ Hz or 1.5 Hz. He has 4 groups - block A , block G, block Q and block Z. slowed down 100 times, each block in turn stands up and down once every 150 seconds. in a changing pattern. so maybe A for 25 seconds, nobody for the next 12.5 then Q for 25 seconds, nobody for 12.5, G for 25, nobody 12.5, Z 25, nobody 12.5. Thats 1 cycle, taking 150s. For the next cycle the pattern might be ZQAG, then ZAGQ etc. But those patterns occur every 150 seconds.
Thats the other frequency
Both are important. But for different reasons. Only Peter Tass, Synergic and assorted DIyers are worrying about Fstim and coordinated reset. And which f burst you use, if it matters at all, only matters for coordinated reset
Thats a gross simplification, but maybe it will help explain.
Tunasalad
Hi Winnie, WOW, is about all I can say to ALL that information. Head is spinning, ha! First off, thank you for breaking it all down for me in the way that you did. I appreciate that SO much! Believe it or not, your explanation truly helped me understand it in multiple ways. I certainly believe that was the super simplified version, which I surely needed it to be, so I could understand it. I think it is complex, especially when you put it all together. Second, I am glad to hear your progress on the MK-5, sounds like you’re making good headway. Third, my family is from the northern region of France. Thank you for the learning ideas, I had French in college, but, it’s been a long while, so needed much brushing up! OK, I had heard about the Dr. Tass/Stanford vs Synergic fallout, and Synergic going on to their own trials, but, how that’s going to work out, with the possible infringement, who knows. And I heard that Dr. Tass had changed his mechanical engineering subcontractor, but, now he has a first rate one, engineering/haptics and a superb industrial designer. That’s my understanding. I don’t know if trials have started yet, or not. On coordinated reset, would you say that this is ABSOLUTELY needed to disrupt the problem of the PD brain patterns to work in ANY type of stimulator device? The f stim. Do you have the f stim determined in your gloves? If you don’t get that, (the fstim). that crucial disruption of the unwanted pattern of synchronization, then NO stimulation device would or could possibly work, correct? I have read a bit about GVS and CVS, but, the stimulation there would not be what is needed, because of the coordinated reset, wouldn’t be involved, right? Hence, the need for coordinated reset, I assume. I am fascinated to learn Dr. Tass started CR In tinnitus. I wonder how he did that? I thought I read there are more receptors in the fingertips, not sure? Anyways, so I am assuming you have managed to harness (FA2) with 250hz without stimulation of other sorts and not confusing patterns? How is your MK-5 going to improve your design? It is amazing what you have done, how you have done it, and, your knowledge of all of this. I can tell you are a very determined person by all that you have learned and accomplished. Why did you decide to become a DIYer? Is it a timing factor? There is NOT much out there, DBS, Focused Ultrasound, ohhh, and way down the road, Stem Cells, I think there is much potential there, but, could be a very long wait. What do you think? Honestly, that is all I know of besides medication changes, but, when is enough, enough? Winnie, Again, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you responding to me, which, is SO kind of you. I truly hope to hear MORE from you as soon as you have some time, I don’t want to take time away from your research. Thanks SO Winnie, All the best, Melodi
Phew
we've moved. I'll try to answer a bit later
As best I can
Stanford/Synergic patents - who knows? But I wouldn't want to bet on Synergic marketing a glove any time soon
Stanford are rumoured to be working with Boston Scientific - who look a league up.
Synergic have started their trials
As far as I am aware, Stanford haven't started any trials - although back in March Peter Tass was talking about "very soon"
Coordinated Reset is the only game in town for reprogramming rogue brain rythms
Fstim - at the moment everyone is using 1.5Hz . That is a pattern of 4 fingers stimulated for 100ms each, with a 67ms pause. That pattern takes 667ms. You get 3 of those patterns every 2 seconds. That's 3/2 cycles per second = 1.5Hz. In the future, other frequencies may be trialled - and targetted towards particular symptoms. The "rogue" frequency of the unwanted synchronisation are different for tremor, rigidity etc. But for now, we're all on 1.5Hz
I'm not sure what you are referring to with GVS and CVS.
You can read about Dr Tass and CR for tinnitus here
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/315...
The hands, and particularly the fingertips, contain the highest density of mechanoreceptors, although there are fewer FA2 receptors on the fingertips than the back of the phalanges. But , as a glove designer, it is much easier to stimulate the finger tips. I keep trying to have a go at a "back of finger" stimulation, but its not easy - not on my little fingers anyway. In theory there would be significant advantages
Yes - I have good grounds for believing the 250Hz stimulation I am using is at least as fast precise and accurate as the system the current Stanford glove achieves, and the theoretical considerations in Peter Tass paper suggest that will help to target FA2 receptors and not trigger other (FA1, SA1 and SA2) receptors, and that that is a good thing, because the other receptors might confuse the message
Mk5 will use the smallest audio exciter I have used yet, and is a much neater, more comfortable box. It will use a fake C-MR contact point (copy of the one Stanfords gloves use), neater cabling, and will include a new stimulation pattern option with amplitude jitter. I have made it easier to fit and remove the exciters, which in turn makes the soldering on the very fiddly, easily damaged connectors much more robust. My wife is going to try to ensure there is no "leaking" velcro on the box holders, because unwanted velcro snagging is really tiresome. I think she has an idea for making it easier to put on and take off the gloves too, although I'm not sure what that was (and she's not here atm)
I decided to become a DIYer because I showed the Peter Tass presentation about using maths and physics to treat PD to a friend who sends me links to articles in science publications about PD, and he is an engineer / designer and very good at maths and physics, and he said "we could do this" - and it kind of grew from there. 3 other friends with much better maths, physics and engineering skills than me have also helped subsequently.
Is it a timing factor? If by that you mean "are you impatient for help with this disease" - then "Yes!". Obviously there are risks in trying untested unapproved therapies, not least that you waste your time and money because they don't work, but in this case too, I think there is the potential to make things worse. But I was prepared to accept the risks. I don't think an authorised version is going to appear soon (before 2026) and I wanted something now
There is a lot out there - hopefully coming in time to help me - but the gloves are a useful bridge until they arrive. Stem cell transplants will probably be 10 years away. But there is a dopamine pump being developed at Lille University, and new c-abl inhibitors like IKT148009 being developed which may be a big improvement in therapy - probably "only" 3 or 4 years away.
The gloves are the best I could do until then
Happy New Year!
Winnie, Thank you SO much for moving me, I had NO idea we were in a uncompromising (?) situation. Is this area safe to talk about anything? Thanks for all the information and tinnitus CR link, will check it out. On the GVS & CVS, If I remember correctly, GVS is Galvanized Vestibular Stimulation and the CVS one is Caloric. Probably not of great value, but, thought I read in PubMed that they showed promise, don’t know how much. On timing, YES, that’s exactly what I meant. MUCH is a ways down the road and I agree that’s not acceptable right now to wait so long. So, I am not going to go on much further until you tell me we are safe to talk here. I don’t want to put you in an unsafe situation, however, I DO want to say I am excited for your many improvements on MK-5! Talking to you is ALWAYS intriguing and educational. Happy New Year to you and your wife! Please let me know if and when you can talk? I (think?), I may have figured out how to CHAT with you without anyone knowing, tho, I am not SURE if it works, anyways looking forward to our next conversation! Thanks, Winnie! Melodi
The issue was not safety but manners. It is OK to stray a little bit off the core topic. That's "thread drift". But huge blocks which were nothing to do with Bhaptics tactgloves was being rude. "thread-scrapping"
I'll post some pics on here when I get the new gloves done.
Hi Winnie, Thank you for informing me on the manner issues regarding certain posts, I get it now. I am NEW to forums and I know you didn’t see that I was going to go SO off the core of what that posting thread that was about or that it even mattered. I understand now, thanks. Certainly don’t want to be rude, by any means! Yes, please send some pics of your MK-5’s, I am sure they’ll be well improved! I am looking into somehow getting some gloves. I read most of your past threads on this post and there is NO way I can do it on my own. If I can find an engineer, could I ask for your help, I would gladly pay you, whatever it takes. If you’re too busy, do you have any other suggestions? Any and all ideas appreciated!
Thanks, and HAPPY NEW YEAR! 🎊 Melodi
i'm happy to help people build gloves, but I can't build them for you. January is my silly busy season - I invoice 55% of my annual turnover in December and January. It will be calmer in February (although my daughter is expecting her first baby - I'm going to be a Grandad!!)
Tbh the hardest part is the sewing machine stuff, and you don't have to do that - I have seen the pods held on with elastic bands. I am aware of 3 or 4 projects to develop gloves that can be easily home built - at various stages of completion. My version is not hard - but it is a bit klutsy. You don't need an engineer. Anyone who can use a soldering iron is fine.
And if your tremor is reasonably controlled, then its not hard to learn to solder well enough. I might try making a couple of videos of assembly
Happy New Year
OK - the relaunch. I'm not sure how much fun it's been, but if it prints and fits tomorrow I may settle for this
The revised Mk5 housing. For those who have asked for help building gloves - I'm getting closer
stl image of 3d printing project for glove tactor housing
Curious ,what diameter is the hole for the contactor in your new design? My prototype has a 8 mm hole diameter for the 5 mm contactor to go through. I think EA or Tass has specified a bit more clearance than I had expected.
I have a 7mm contacter and a 10 mm hole. But I also have a 2mm bump in the middle which is 0.5mm high. Although that is on the new, untested box for the 9mm exciter
My 13mm exciter housing has interchangeable contact points, using a screw thread, but after over a month of frustration I have accepted that's just too fiddly on the 9mm version for my 3d printer
The EA CMF spec sheet quotes 5.1mm for the contactor and doesnt quote the hole size. Its roughly 3/16 and 5/16 resectively. I have that as 5mm and 8mm based on a very close up photo of a device (see image).
I may drop down to 6mm and 9mm or 10mm. But the hole is a good 3mm bigger than the contact surface
close up of cmf tactor
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