Hydrogen in Drinking Water Reduces Dopaminergic Neuronal Loss in the 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine Mouse Model of Parkinson's

[SilentEchoes]

My brain isn't functioning well today. Can you sciencey folks expand the knowledge base in this discussion?

This link is just the abstract because I don't have credentials to access the full article:

journals.plos.org/plosone/a...

[park_bear]

Yet another of the many studies that finds a substance that protects mice against artificially induced brain injury that causes a form of parkinsonism. Any connection between this and helping humans to remedy actual Parkinson's is speculative.

[SilentEchoes in reply to park_bear]

With all due respect, I have Parkinsonism and it was artificially induced (Roundup).

MPTP is the standard neurotoxin used to reproduce PD for research, but as we can all attest, there are many other synthetic compounds capable of causing neurodegenerative disorders.

[park_bear in reply to SilentEchoes]

Wow - did not know Parkinsonism could be induced by Roundup. If you have not done so already, please post your story.

---

MPTP is the standard model because it is easy to use. That does not make it a good model. It would be a lot more impressive if it was used to demonstrate recovery from brain injury. If we knew beforehand the occasions when we needed to be protected from brain injury we would have avoided those exposures in most cases.

[SilentEchoes in reply to park_bear]

How do I post my story?

[park_bear in reply to SilentEchoes]

Post the same way you posted this.

[SilentEchoes in reply to park_bear]

Please read my reply to MarionP in this post

[park_bear in reply to SilentEchoes]

The double blind placebo controlled study I cited below is definitive. H2 is not helpful for Parkinson's. OTOH it does no harm which makes it better than some other ideas

[LAJ12345 in reply to park_bear]

According to docuseries I’ve watched lately roundup can kill gut bacteria. Also it chelates minerals from the soil making it hard for plants to absorb some trace minerals making food less nutritious.

[MarionP]

Phony as a 3 dollar bill. Hydrogen in water will quickly combine with any hydroxide or dissolved oxygen in the water that happens by and turn itself into...wait for it...H2O, which itself is a miracle, just not much use in curing Parkinson's.

[SilentEchoes in reply to MarionP]

I have no ability to discuss biological processes and have to rely on the expertise of others. The following makes sense to me:

"These tablets don’t contain hydrogen gas, which would be impossible, but they produce hydrogen gas by reacting with the water. It’s a chemical reaction, and it leaves you, like in this case, with magnesium. You end up getting bioavailable magnesium ions, and the hydrogen gas just dissolves in the water.

Hydrogen is able to help attenuate inflammation or excessive oxidation, that’s why we see it benefiting so many different diseases.

We know that if you reduce oxidation too much, you end up in trouble. You can actually interfere with the body’s immune system, that oxidative process is vital to energy and health. Hydrogen balances this.

The real issue with aging and diseases is redox dysregulation. Free radicals are essential, critical molecules, in mediating the benefits of whether it be exercise or just longevity in general. That’s why when we exercise more, we breath more oxygen, and by so doing, we produce more free radicals. These free radicals are what activate various transcription factors that lead into increased muscle mass, or increased strength and endurance. It’s a hormetic response, a hormesis. We certainly have to have that balance, we can have too much antioxidants.

You can have a redox dysregulation in the same cell. For example, you can have too much free radicals, too much oxidation in the cytosol of the cell, leading to depletions in glutathione and oxidation of other biomolecules that are very important, but yet not enough oxidizing power in the endoplasmic reticulum of the cell, which is responsible for folding proteins. Of course, if you can’t fold proteins correctly, then you’re going to be in a lot of trouble because structure dictates function. It’s really about establishing this redox balance. It’s this homeostasis that we’re after.

Even though we don’t have lots of 10-year clinical studies using molecular hydrogen for therapy and proving its effectiveness, we do see that it is certainly safe. It is very safe and all these animal and human studies are suggesting that it has therapeutic potential. It does not cause a dysregulation of our homeostasis of redox balance. To put this in perspective, if we were to administer molecular hydrogen to a healthy cell, or to a healthy animal, or a healthy human, and you measure the levels of glutathione, or superoxide dismutase, or other antioxidant molecules, you would most likely see there’s no change. There’s no increase. There’s no decrease. That’s exactly what you want. Just like if you don’t have diabetes, and you take hydrogen, you don’t want to see lower levels of glucose or higher levels. You want to keep it exactly the same.

There are around 1,000 scientific publications, and 30, 40, or more human clinical studies in progress now. All of this preliminary data has suggested that hydrogen has a therapeutic potential in essentially every organ of the human body and in over 170 different human and animal disease models. At first, when you look, this is surprising that this molecule would have so many different effects because most drugs, for example, it’s a one organ, a one target, one cell receptor, one effect. Whereas molecular hydrogen, so many diseases, so many organs, so many different effects. The reason why is because of the antioxidation effect and this anti-inflammatory effect which is really the underlying cause of so many different diseases. When hydrogen is able to help attenuate the inflammation or the excessive oxidation, we’re able to see it benefiting so many different diseases.

Molecular hydrogen brings the body into homeostasis. It’s not forcing one way or another. It’s when we have a chemical assault, a physical assault, that it reacts. With that said, can someone be depleted in hydrogen that we’re saying, hey this person would have an even greater effect from it because they were depleted, or this person doesn’t notice much because they have plenty of hydrogen?

Hydrogen is very natural to our bodies, every time we eat a rich fiber food, the fiber, the non-digestible carbohydrates are metabolized by our intestinal flora to produce hydrogen gas. By simply administering slightly more hydrogen gas, by drinking hydrogen-rich water, or inhalation, or other methods, we’re seeing this therapeutic effect. Perhaps there could be some truth to the idea that because this person does not get very much hydrogen gas in their body, whether it's because they don’t have the right microflora, they have a dysregulation going on, or just not a good microbiome, or they don’t eat a very good diet, maybe they could be more sensitive to the benefits of administration of molecular hydrogen versus somebody else."

You can read the whole discussion here: drpompa.com/podcasts/204-th...

There's been a lot of talk about gut health and it's lack thereof in neurological conditions. Wouldn't taking molecular hydrogen be a good preventative strategy against environmental toxin exposure?

The takeaway is that we need to improve our diet and heal our gut to improve our condition and we can help it along by drinking hydrogen rich water.

This exercise was good for me. I took molecular hydrogen on faith that it will be beneficial, now I have a better understanding of how it benefits me.

[MarionP in reply to SilentEchoes]

To which I say: sounds great, prove it. Where is your work, and what have OTHER scientists already FORMALLY said about it in examining it? Make the work available, make it freely available.

Anyone with the goods will be showing it in science, eager to do so, not selling it in expensive pills that cost him a penny or so with no evidence backing it.

Anyone can do a really elaborate, promising sounding and convincing pitch. Saying something that exploits your neediness, hopelessness, and fear and thus guides you along to take advantage of your feelings by giving your mind a complicated but fancy sounding elaborate story to ease your anxiety and lull your thinking brain to sleep is vicious heartless "never give a sucker an even break" predation. Makes billions every year for the frauds. Anyone with the goods will want the proof of it it spread far and wide. The way real science works is the scientist offers up the work to peer scientists for challenge and their efforts to defeat his work...the eventual failure of which then results in lots of peers declaring its validity in formal science publications that vet and control contributions such that the "community of peers" confirms and extends the science through their own work. That's why God created science, replication, challenges by the scientific community, and peer review, all part of the scientific method.

So again I say, great, sounds like the best thing since penicillin...so prove it. Should be easy if its already in a safe, effective end product. Show us the work.

Remember the teachers who always said "show your work"? That's why they said it. As true for this as for the people who designed and built the brakes, steering, and those metal-fragment-wrapped explosive air bags pointed at your face from your steering wheel, which pack the same power as a loaded gun...and everything on up to hydrogen bombs...well, those bombs HAVE actually been proven to work by the way. I don't doubt that if he reads this, it will find its way into his pitch someday. Powerful little nuclei, those hydrogen atoms. I can see it now, "the power of Hydrogen, the smallest atom and most freely available substance on Earth!"

Or will, I now wonder, drinking more hydrogen in your water or generating it in your stomach will take the excess hydrogen ions and attach them to the unsaturated hydrocarbons in your stomach and gut and turn unsaturated fats into saturated ones? Uh-oh. Or will those free radicals with their strong negative charge just attach to the positively charged covalent-positive H2 molecules to make some more H2O (which is probably all that could happen, and maybe that's good, who knows?). Or just make you burp a little, out one end or the other.

I do agree with you on one thing, if you have no ability to discuss biological processes then you are forced to rely on the expertise of others...so choose wisely. But then, what about after, if they say thoughts that don't support your hopes? Will you just discount anything you don't like, and substitute something that feels more comfortable?

We ALL have to choose wisely. "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers," said Tennessee Williams's chronic rape victim Blanche. I wonder if he meant to ask whether depending on the kindness of strangers and being violently raped every few months was connected? Then there is that line from The Magnificent Seven (which also captures the philosophy of our wonderful President over here: "If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep." Hmm.

What would be a good clinical trial? Something that improves my neighbor's or my ability to stand, walk and reduce tremors and off's, say less time in his walker and more time or distance moving without it...where a control group has no improvement. Something that over a period of years resulted in fewer diagnoses of PD and Parkinsonism and fewer symptoms and symptom reversals and symptoms that come on in a longer time, all in a sufficiently large double blind experimental group of various levels of PD/Parkinsonism vs. a double blind control group.

A well-honed polished very detailed and elaborate bedtime story to get you to send money? I can create an "Institute" tomorrow by filling out a form and paying %50 at my local state's Department of State that registers new corporations. I can even get it registered as a non-profit so I don't have to pay taxes, if I happen to get any income or sales revenue via it. I can call it The Marian Group (that'll get the Catholics on board). Takes an hour to set up.

You don't have to be a scientist or have degrees in chemistry to smell a rat, all you need is to use your natural common sense and value your nose...even if your PD or dementia has taken some of it.

[SilentEchoes in reply to MarionP]

My bull$#!& meter is pretty accurate. Because I do not have a science/biology background, I am extremely careful about the supplements I use. I don't want to do myself harm. Doing nothing isn't an option. I research constantly to understand causation for my neurological injury and to inform my therapy; it is my opinion that you cannot do one without the other.

I understand what I read, but my organophosphate poisoning affected my limbic system, so I often cannot express this information verbally. Put me under stress and I can't speak at all. I also lose my way in conversations.

MarionP, I'm impressed with your intelligence, but you mostly vented. The awesome thing is that this forum is a safe place to vent; we wear our loved ones out otherwise.

The science in this area is evolving; it's not lost on me that much of the published research is originating from countries other than the US.

intechopen.com/books/magnes...

I'm doing nir therapy for insomnia, I researched it first and sought a practitioner. It significantly improved my sleep, I haven't gone for a couple weeks and the insomnia returned with a vengeance. I don't fully understand why it works and how it works, and I don't care, it works and that is good enough for me.

I'm naturally skeptical, but I'm also open to new ideas and think my greatest asset is my lack of indoctrination and preconceptions. It is unlikely to be a placebo effect. I have also begun vibration therapy.

My focus has been to help my body heal itself, and I'm trying to figure out what it needs. I think that our body possesses the innate ability to heal itself and molecular hydrogen falls in line with my paradigm.

[SilentEchoes]

*park_bear and MarionP,

Not the kind of response I was anticipating. I have no capacity to discuss the biology of molecular hydrogen therapy, but I do respect Dr. Garth Nicolson and his work, therefore I trust his opinion and will continue to "drink the water." I've got nothing to lose. And if it just turns to water than it can't hurt me either.

Prof. Emeritus Garth L. Nicolson, Ph.D., M.D. (H)

Complete Curriculum Vitae - pdf

youtu.be/L7l7Wosqhmk(Not working as expected?)

I hope this post inspires people to dig deeper and form your own opinion on this supplement.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

SE

[park_bear in reply to SilentEchoes]

Published Sept. 2018:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/302...

The text is behind a pay wall:

"We conducted a longer and larger scale H2 water trial that also included patients who were not treated with levodopa. A placebo-controlled, randomized, double-blind, parallel-group (1:1) clinical trial was performed in 14 hospitals ...

"There were no significant differences in the change in the total UPDRS score from baseline to the 72nd week between the H2-water group (1.6 ± 14.0 [mean ± standard deviation]) and the placebo water group (0.8 ± 9.6;ttest, P= .939; analysis of variance, P= .538; Table 1).There were no significant differences in changes in the scores on parts II and III of the UPDRS, the individual parts of the UPDRS, the Hoehn and Yahr stage, and the Parkinson's Disease Questionnaire-39 score between the 2 groups. .... The mean change in total UPDRS score remained within 3 points in the 2 groups..."

This is definitive, and demonstrates the weakness of the MPTP model. I take no pleasure in this result, but it underlines the importance in being skeptical of this model.

[stepan13]

Clinical Trial to Evaluate the Safety and Tolerability of Hydrogen in Patients With Parkinson's Disease

A Randomized, Double-blind, Placebo-controlled Clinical Trial to Evaluate the Safety and Tolerability of Molecular Hydrogen in Patients With Parkinson's Disease

Got by mail a few minutes ago

New Trial Matches on Fox Trial Finder!

[sharoncrayn]

Very few on this forum have a background in science , if any, beyond perhaps what they may have taken and forgotten in high school, at least to interpret this mouse/mice study accurately. But I am sure it won't stop the usual uniformed suspects from spouting their usual.

My interpretation? Forget molecular hydrogen as a treatment or as a possible helpful tool.

What the Japanese researchers were proposing in 2009 in their mouse/mice study is that it "appears" that even a small amount of molecular hydrogen in simple water can presumably offer neurodegeneration protection against dopamine degeneration and loss of the dopamine(!). Since dopamine degeneration and loss is presumably the cause and effect of PD, PD researchers should undertake a reasonably rigorous clinical trial to see if it is applicable to a cohort of participants who actually reflect the PD population at large (not some screwball interpretation of some bizarre population like we have seen in the oral assimilation of b-1 study and its erroneous interpretation on this forum).

Then in 2016-2018 PD researchers did actually do that; they undertook a clinical trial to examine if the concept proposed in this mouse study could be extrapolated to humans. Published in Movement Disorders ( a peer reviewed journal), hydrogen showed no change in UPDRS readings or levels after 72 weeks. (UPDRS readings are the gold standard in assessing changes in PD.) Pretty convincing and well done trial.

Yes, I am just a stupid Ph.d in biochemistry from U. of Chicago trying to inject a scintilla of scientific interpretation of various studies and trials related to PD into this forum. It has been a difficult road with some.

[SilentEchoes in reply to sharoncrayn]

I appreciate your feedback. Do you think the magnesium ions are beneficial?

[sharoncrayn]

Silent:

I don't believe the poison Roundup "artificially" induced your PD; it actually did so, or had at least something (or a lot) to do with your symptomology. Roundup of course isn't the only pesticide that can carry a death sentence if someone is overexposed long enough..

Chemists have known for some time now that glyphosates are directly linked to increasing the risk of PD. If you, as an example, used Roundup with minimal protection or even full protection for a sufficient period of time (years as have many farmers and factory workers), it definitely has a very negative impact on your health. GLSOPHATES contained in Roundup are excellent killers of dopamine cells which you cannot do without. Or put in another way, it can radically change your DNA for the worse, which can be a terrible curse.

Talking about oxidative stress from the mouse study, "Paraquat" for exmple like Roundup a pesticide, does a very, very good job at increasing oxidative stress beyond human tolerances.

To answer your question about magnesium ions...can it help in your situation? An awful lot depends on the extent of your exposure to Roundup. A whole lot of exposure? Nothing much. A little bit of exposure? Perhaps.

Is there also a link between plant lectins and glphophates in relationship to a neuro degenerative disease like PD? Does this combination destroy your gut lining as well in the process? I believe we will definitely find the answers to be a resounding YES.

Sorry I can't be more positive.