Possibly a record for the shortest time on a forum - 3 days...
If I share incontravertable facts in an effort to help, and the replies start to raise my BP, then time to go. I never joined a forum before, and now I know it's not a thing for me!
Wishing you all the best possible outcome for your health,
Adios!
Probably for the best if it's affecting your BP.
I've learned suffering and recovery isn't a one track method and people on here offer various ways they have chosen , Meds or alternatives or both.
What matters is people on here are willing to share Thier experience and it's not a one size fits all approach. On forums you have to be accepting of this and appreciate advice will be given as an answer to your own proposal .
Good points well made Deanosbeano
Gutted and I get you.. Forum for help and sound off not judged or enraged,
Keep clicking and snapping photos planteater
I do so concur.
We all need to be a litte more accepting with a glass half full approach.
Being over-critical does alienate new posters, who are not used to using one of these "forums".
He did say, he was new in using these "forums".
Where is his thread, gone?
Very disappointed. 
Me too , I saw your reply to my post on there and well it was gone when I went to look
😀😀😀😀😀
👍😃😂😂😂😂
That really bums me out. You're posts were spot on and backed up by science.
No they weren’t. There was no peer reviewed scientific evidence cited that supported statements such as all meat, sugar and fats are inflammatory etc.
There is an important point here, it’s vital to be able to tell the difference between personal experience and what may work for an individual and what the evidence actually says.
“ Inconvertible “ facts aren’t just in the eye of the beholder.
I disagree Tynemouth. Although I can't say with certainty that fat, sugar and meats are inflammatory, they DO NOT contribute to good heart health. What Planteater was advocating was basically the Dr.Dean Ornish plan for reversing heart disease which is backed by science. If your not buying this that's fine, but the evidence is irrefutable, and that is a FACT. Wishing you good health, be well.
Why is it FACT?
How is Dr Dean Ornish's plan back by science?
A belief is an act of faith not a scientific fact.
There are no facts as such just evidence that is highly suggestive.
Polarised views do not serve any of us well especially if it leads to heart patients believing its okay to stop taking medication without an honest and open discussion with their doctors first.
If you don't buy into the evidence behind the diet and lifestyle that Dr. Ornish advocates that's all well and good.........go about your heart health as you see fit. I hope that you have as much success improving your heart health as those that practice what Ornish advocates have had. And Ornish does not advocate arbtrarily ceasing ones medication, only that it is possible to do so at some point as heart health improves.
Have googled Dr Dean Ornish, plenty of books to buy peddling his diet but no large, double blinded randomised controlled trials that I could find.
Do you have any links to the irrefutable evidence and facts, as without evidence it’s all just opinion?
Wishing you evidence based treatment leading to improved health.
Evidenced based treatment leading to improved health you say? Precisely my friend, it's what I've found with the Ornish plan. 
Personally, I absolutely would not eat or tolerate beans, lentils etc.
I did it in the past when my gut was a little more robust...several decades ago, not now!
I also find trendy sweet potatoes quite unappealing. I avoid....totally.
But no point of saying these on his thread, which was intended to be educational.
I would probably also wither away on 100% plants approach as far as my muscles are concerned. They are not in the best condition after being bed bound for almost ten years in the past. Okinawans do eat a bit of everything, including sugar,fish and meats. However, their food is probably locally sourced and uncontaminated. They live in a paradise.
I gathered that he was a genuine poster (unlike trolls), who cared and wanted to share what he's been doing.
H disease is tramatic for anyone. Hubs like this might need to be a little more tolerant of "diversity". I know that there are people, who are adopting some part of plant-based diet after Cardiac events. Now, they are too afraid to discuss the subject/issues around the topic on this Hub. It would be a little shame.
That’s a good point autumnsonnet and I would hate to think people were too afraid to discuss things. Does it make a difference when opinion is presented as scientific fact without any evidence to back that up?
I was focusing on his personal experiences.
The rest didn't matter so much to me.
The real debate starts even when you know you "disagree".
You can still listen and ask relevant questions.
You may also gain some new insight.
The poster can interact.
This poor guy might be isolated,
maybe, even he just wanted to "mingle".
Who knows?
He threatened to" Horsewhip the Pie eaters on the forums "and Im serious " " in his first reply to a thread. Not really the kind mantra I would of thought was acceptable or fitted the persona portrayed In His posts , I suspected a hidden agenda but I guess we won't know so speculation must end .
There are no "incontravertable facts", certainly when it comes to diet or nutrition.
The gold standard for medical research is a randomised, double blind test with a control. That's virtually impossible with diet research, how can anyone be "blind" as to what they're eating, and how is any diet research ever truly verifiable with repeat experimentation?
And even if there were evidence for the superiority of one particular diet, would that mean it's the best for everyone? I very much doubt it, there's such huge genetic diversity when it comes to how we digest food that it's most unlikely that there's a one size fits all solution.
So if someone fetches up on this forum purporting to have the one true diet, then they should expect to be vigorously challenged and asked to show their evidence.
Anyhow, I suspect Drew isn't going anywhere. In my experience of internet forums if someone simply stops posting then there's every chance they won't come back. But when someone feels the need to post about their departure, then they don't really intend to leave!
When something differs from the usual medical guidelines it would be wrong not to challenge it particularly where the research is potentially dubious. Misinterpreting data and wild extrapolation is not uncommon.
However, this should give rise to informed debate. Some years ago I queried Kendrick's statements on another forum and got some fairly abusive PMs from some members who were totally convinced by him. Hopefully, nobody here would behave like that and would rather continue an informed debate.
An open and honest discussion is required. However some views are a reflection of an individual's personal beliefs which may have no scientific evidence to support them.
There was also a suggestion that a strict adherence to a particular lifestyle strategy can lead to a reversal of heart disease and a recommendation of reducing or stopping medications.
In the press this week there was an article suggesting running a marathon reduces the age of your arteries by 4 years.
I can't even run for a bus!
There are quite a few doctors and celebrities who have become rich from writing books etc about their particular beliefs about which lifestyle should be adopted.
And then I put Fry's Five but am fairly sure Drew "liked" it?
Gunsmoke please can you put up a link to the angio studies as I was planning to have a look at them.
Interesting critique of the “ science “ as presented by forks over knives
deniseminger.com/2011/09/22...
I read as long as I could - what’s the simple version of the conclusion?
This seems to have completely passed me by what have I missed ???
Regards
It was basically about how a plant based diet reversed CVD. My own research has only found one trial that potentially showed this on some patients. BUT it was on a relatively small number of people who also did not eat any nuts, avocados, fruit juice, salt, sugar, oil of any type, etc. A very hard diet to follow. They also continued taking all prescribed medication.
Michael's right, but I'd go still further. Even if the study he mentions constitutes evidence, then what is it evidence for? You could equally argue that the benefits were nothing to do with a plant based diet but were a function of cutting out salt. That conclusion would fit the evidence just as well.
Actually I do know of one further investigation that purports to show some reduction in plaque levels. Dr Ford Brewer (a very credible witness) published the results of his own carotid artery ultra sound scans, and these do show a reduction in plaque. He ate a Mediterranean Diet that allowed oily fish and egg whites, so maybe that was responsible? Or maybe it was the CoQ10 supplements he took? Or maybe it helped his carotid arteries but did nothing for his heart? Then again it could be down to his vigorous aerobic exercise regime? Or perhaps his arteries will start getting worse again in the future and this was just a blip? Or maybe it worked for him but wouldn't work for most people?
I could go on, but you get the general idea, you have to set the bar for what constitutes "evidence" extremely low in order to be persuaded by any of this. If you're reasonably intelligent, exercise some healthy scepticism, and take a look at the weight of the entire evidence, then it's difficult to do other than conclude that there's currently no compelling reason to believe that heart disease is curable or reversible.
But for anyone to argue that there's a scientific basis for abandoning medication based on this, well that crosses the line between slightly batty personal choices and irresponsible wickedness that the moderators of this forum need to jump all over.
“But for anyone to argue that there's a scientific basis for abandoning medication based on this, well that crosses the line between slightly batty personal choices and irresponsible wickedness that the moderators of this forum need to jump all over.”
Well said Chappychap, that comment gets to the heart of the issue here.
A friend was getting excessively tired and after failing a stress ECG stents were being planned. He then made lifestyle changes including high dose Vitamin C to counter irritation he passed the next stress ECG. However he has now developed bad angina and is now undergoing tests. So it appears a Mediterranean diet and Vitamin C are beneficial but he should have taken the statins prescribed which he now does!
Many years ago my psychology lecturer was busy trying to stop his students jumping to conclusions so illustrated his lecture with a joke: (please don;t be offended no animals were really harmed)
The student trained a spider to come when he called.
He then removed a leg at a time and called the spider and it came every time.
Eventually there were no legs left. The student called the spider and it didn;t move. Student conclusion was "when you remove all legs of a spider it goes deaf".
Terrible I know but it points out that looking at the entire evidence can lead you into interesting but false conclusions,
Again apologies as not a PC joke but it was 40 years ago.....
I agree. I have noticed some medical evidence published by this renown, highly well respected charity itself published some articles that are simply not true. We can discern information, but you could have given this man a chance to explore the subject further. Jumping on a new poster and beat him up, no matter how CORRECT you might be, it's not nice.
When you have inflammatory conditions such as heart diseases/had acute cardiac crisis, it may leave some long lasting damage elsewhere. Thinking or judgement might be affected. It may not be so unlikely for him to suffer from mental health issues as a result of this disease.
Jumping on and beating up!
I read the entire thread and no one did any of those things. If asking for some evidence to support “ incontrovertible “ facts when posters are talking about diet and cure plus coming off all meds is perceived as the above behaviour then obviously cardiac disease can affect thinking and judgement.
Absolutely agree unless something was posted between the last time I read it and its deletion. I will admit that a few of us put some childish comments about chocolate bars but Drew "liked" mine. Partially I think this came about as we were told this was irrefutable but no real evidence was given.
There is good science and there is bad science but conclusions without supporting evidence is the worse science of all!
"I have noticed some medical evidence published by this renown, highly well respected charity itself published some articles that are simply not true."
Can you substantiate your claim by posting a link to a BHF article that is "not true"?
Just looked up mung beans. They are amazing little beans apparently. The claims I read include lowering cholesterol and BP, detoxing your liver and promoting good health in pregnancy! Why am I not convinced?
Because it’s crazy to suggest that an organ whose essential function is to “ de tox “ the body ( liver ) needs detoxing!
You're making a really important point. If you can't stick to a diet, and I mean for years and years rather than just a few months, then it matters not one jot how healthy it is. Furthermore, plenty of people on this forum are retired and live just with their partner, how much harder to stick to a particular diet in the hustle and bustle of family life and with a busy full-time job?
I seem to recall reading that over eight out of ten Vegans return to eating meat. Maybe the success rate would be better if the emphasis was on cutting out ALL processed meats and significantly REDUCING other meats?
Autumnsonnet
Could you give an example of I assume you mean the BHF publishing untrue information?
If you consider their information is incorrect you can always contact them and ask for a correction of the information.
This they will do following a thorough review of the latest research and by consulting patients with a lived experience of the condition.
That's a constructive comment, without going down for "chit chat".
To be honest, as someone else commented earlier very wisely, medical articles and lame conclusions, especially, done on rare disorders are not so rare.
I'm coming from a family full of rare conditions (partly genetic).
If you try to keep correcting these errors made by "experts", your entire life would be wasted and these experts make a good living out of what they do.
However, I mentioned it because I remember your previous comments.
I guess I feel for the "underdog". Compassion starts on HU!
To others, everyone has something to contribute OVERALL, but if you are obsessed with erroneous bits and those only, you miss your educational opportunity.
Even Michael commented on Mung beans! That inspired me. I might try to add some new stuff into my diet
Exactly, I was going to ask him what he eats for dessert.
Now the opportunity is gone now.
Just bit the bullet and bought some Flora without Dairy so taken the Vegan option !! Really I bought it because it is on offer at a Supermarket near to you.
So bye bye 10mg Bisoprolol
regards
Hello - I'm new on here. 
I'm new here........
Hello everyone - I'm new here
I'm new here.
So I'm sat here waiting......
