5 times larger stroke risk

I know, I should have written this as a response to what BigArnie has posted lately, but since there are so many comments to his post, people most probably would miss to read it.

I suffer on AF for maybe 15 years (68 now, male), but because of having very mild symptoms, never went to see a doctor and never was prescribed medication, including anticoagulants. The shivering in my chest, at night, and quite irregular heart beat, are the signs that it is AF (sometimes, there are some PVCs, sometimes a AFlutter). Many others, in this forum, have also reported to have been without any symptoms and have been diagnosed quite accidentally, because of having had an ECG on the base of other health problems. Until than, they did not know that they were AF sufferers. Many, many others never get diagnosed and die, without knowing it.

It is an official medical estimation that, in any disease, the number of infected is about 5-10 times larger, than the number of diagnosed. If we presume that the real number of AF sufferers is only 5 times larger, than the real risk of having the stroke, when in AF, is 5 times less than officially stated. We come to the conclusion, that the risk of stroke, for AF sufferers, is the same as in general population.

I must mention, to have read in an article, some 5-7 years ago, that the research has proven, that the incidence of stroke is the same for AF sufferers and those without AF. I am sorry, not to have been able to find this article again, despite all efforts. Maybe removed from the web, because of spreading "false information"...

[Tickerprobs]

Hey Steely...Even at this late stage, do you not think it’s worth looking at anticoagulants and at least a diagnosis ❓

[Hidden in reply to Tickerprobs]

Hi! No place to go, even if I wanted... From Serbia, all the medical stuff has gone to Germany (do not understand why, lol), medical care is in poor condition, so better not to gamble with medical services. Like my ancestors, I will last for as long as my destiny is. For now, only my ticker is a little jumpy, the rest of my body is OK. No, not worried, not scared, always wonder what anxiety looks like...

[Tickerprobs in reply to Hidden]

Well SH...unlike a lot of places in the world, here in UK, we don’t fully appreciate our fortunate circumstances. We’re spoilt rotten really. I’m glad to hear that you don’t experience anxiety. I’ve previously had that bad, along with depression. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. LIVE LONG AND PROSPER. 👍

[Hidden in reply to Tickerprobs]

Thank you Ticker! I never experienced anxiety, but have spent 12 years researching the disturbances of Autonomous Nervous System. Our beloved cardiac arrhythmia, together with anxiety, depression and many more, count to Dysautonomia. You can Google it to learn more. So, if you ever get depression or anxiety, I would like you to know that it has nothing to do with your state of mind, but it is physically induced and is to understand as the lack of certain chemical compositions in your body. Wish you also all the best! Petar

[Finvola]

The assumption that there are more people with AF than are diagnosed is probably a good one but having 5 times more AF sufferers doesn't have any effect on an individual's stroke risk. Even the stroke risk overall for the diagnosed and undiagnosed population is unaffected as there is no data to show the actual strokes suffered by the undiagnosed.

[Hidden in reply to Finvola]

Yes, for now, the only data that is fixed is "5 times larger stroke risk". All the rest is under question mark... But, on the base of such data, many take anticoagulants for 20+ years. The liver and the kidneys must be affected after so long time. In one of his videos, Dr Gupta was talking about the relation of Big Pharma towards the disease and willing to sell the drugs at any cost, not curing the patients, but making them life long consumers. What, if...

[Finvola in reply to Hidden]

We have to deal with our lives and conditions with present knowledge - which, I agree is changing and expanding, but whilst there is evidence that AF increases the risk of strokes, doctors and patients have to cope with and react to the data. Pharma companies exist to make a profit - otherwise we would have very few medicines - unfortunately, some are completely unscrupulous in their methods which doesn't help.

I'm sorry to read of the poor medical care in your beautiful country. I have very fond memories of travelling around it in my younger days decades ago.

[Hidden in reply to Finvola]

Would you tell me more about your trips via PM, please!

[Finvola in reply to Hidden]

Aah - now I'm 21 again, fit and reliving that journey!

[Hidden in reply to Finvola]

The older we are, the more we live in the memories... I adore meeting old friends and talking about the past!

[Hidden]

What about all the invisible strokes that cause dementia?

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

James, the field of strokes IS a very muddy ground. The very mechanism of developing the clot is poorly understood, so there are many unknowns, which make reflecting upon it difficult. That is exactly why I was irritated by the only "fixed and known data" - 5 times larger stroke risk in AF patients. Who has launched it and with what purpose? Just to make the patients take A/C...? "Scare them to death, and than sell them what you want!"

[CDreamer in reply to Hidden]

A rather damming view of western medicine. It has many faults but also many benefits.

I was given a specific risk factor of stroke by my GP on diagnosis of AF (some 15 years ago now) which came out at the same as the average population so we decided no anticoagulation at that time, the risk factor number I think was 1/20 at that time. I’ve had an annual personal risk assessment since at every review since and now my risk of stroke is very high 1/4 - so I pop the pill - even though my AF has been largely resolved. Risk assessment should be personal so I agree that “fixed and known data” of x5 higher stroke risk for AF’ers is basically meaningless.

I am sorry your medical services are in such disarray, it’s hard to compare different systems when many, in your country and others, have unequal access to good medical care and if I were in that position I would be very angry about that. C’est le vie attitude is one way of coping with the situation you are in but maybe not for many other forum readers.

UK medical services isn’t perfect by any means but so long as it continues to exist, and long may it do so, I will rely on the expertise of the doctors I know and trust and my own experience and self knowledge to make a personal decision which I believe will balance my benefit:risk of taking medications which allow me to get up in the morning - another condition, and reduce my risk of stroke.

[Hidden in reply to CDreamer]

CD, thanks for your empathy and understanding! You would be surprised how good medical care we had only 30 years ago, while living in former Yugoslavia. It was disposable for everyone, without any cost participation. The country had strong economy, so there was the money to provide free medical service for every citizen. Now, it is a disaster, not only because experienced stuff had gone abroad.After having read this forum for almost a decade, I must agree that NHS is an excellent institution, despite people complain from time to time. Regards!

[CDreamer in reply to Hidden]

I have very happy memories of family holidays in the old Yugoslavia in the 1970’s with my children - such a beautiful country.

[Hidden in reply to CDreamer]

So glad to hear it! Not intending to brag, but we had the society that was very good for people! In 1990., I was in Australia, and met there something similar - people would work hard during the week, and on the weekend, they would go "off the chain", like we used to do it in Yugoslavia. "Those were the days, my friend!"